BG2EE Solo Masochistic Challenge -- An Updated Version

Tisamon

This particular challenge grew out of the previous iteration of the rules and was slightly inspired by short discussion with Gotural in the same thread: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/33840/an-extremely-masochistic-solo-challenge-bgee-bg-tob-bg2ee


Abstract/tl;dr:
The main idea is as follows: a solo run through a BG2EE SoA part (I believe there will be a ToB continuation to the challenge, if I won’t get bored); each chapter, the prologue included, will contain a checkpoint or two of sorts – an obligatory challenging battle that must be recorded (preferably, at 30 fps).

1. General rules.

The checkpoints mentioned above are:

 Prologue - Improved Ilyich (Tactics v25).
 Chapter I - Improved Mencar’s Party (Revised Battles v63).
 Chapter II - Super Firkraag (Super Firkraag v15).
 Chapter III - Improved Bodhi (Tactics v25) or Shadow Thief Improvements (Rogue Rebalancing v471).
 Chapter IV - Breudayael’s Party (Improved Asylum v101); Improved Sahuagin (Tactics v25).
 Chapter V - Defenders of Ust Natha (SCS v28).
 Chapter VI – Improved Drizzt’s Party (Revised Battles v63); Improved Bodhi (Tactics v25).
 Chapter VII – Improved Irenicus (Tactics v25).

[As you can see, it’s a bunch of really hard battles. I have decided to forego the SCS ‘Party’s items are taken from them in Spellhold’ component, because, in all honesty, the perspective of facing Breudayael’s party naked will narrow one’s selection of character classes down to mage, sorcerer, monk, and, possibly, dual-classed fighter/druid. Chapter III checkpoint is an either/or choice -- I do not wish to dictate with whom the player should side.]

Consequently, the following mods need to be installed, preferably, in the following order:

~SETUP-REVISEDBATTLES.TP2~ #0 #0 // Improved Battles - "erebusant's Patching Version" v6
~SETUP-REVISEDBATTLES.TP2~ #0 #1 // Improved Drizzt
~SETUP-REVISEDBATTLES.TP2~ #0 #2 // Improved Mencar Pebblecrusher
~SETUP-REVISEDBATTLES.TP2~ #0 #27 // Modify .CRE Proficiencies, Abilities & Effects. This component MUST be installed.
~RR/SETUP-RR.TP2~ #0 #12 // Shadow Thief Improvements: v4.71
~SETUP-TACTICS.TP2~ #0 #0 // Improved Ilyich (requires ToB)
~SETUP-TACTICS.TP2~ #0 #3 // Improved Sahuagin City
~SETUP-TACTICS.TP2~ #0 #4 // Improved Bodhi
~SETUP-TACTICS.TP2~ #0 #5 // Improved Irenicus
~SETUP-TACTICS.TP2~ #0 #24 // Kensai Ryu's Smarter Vampires
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #1000 // Initialise mod (all other components require this): v28
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #3060 // Remove the invisibility power of the Staff of the Magi: v28
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #3070 // Move Vhailor's Helm into Throne of Bhaal: v28
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #5900 // Initialise AI components (required for all tactical and AI components): v28
~STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ #0 #8140 // Slightly Improved Drow -> Upgrade Ust Natha's defences: v28
~SETUP-FIRKRAAG.TP2~ #0 #0 // Super Firkraag Mod for BG2
~IMPASYLUM/SETUP-IMPASYLUM.TP2~ #0 #1 // Improved Asylum Mod for BG2:ToB: v101

[Staff of the Magi is nerfed as per DavidW's suggestion -- otherwise, it breaks the game completely when combined with Cloak of Non-Detection. Vhailor’s Helm allows way too many game-breaking exploits to remain available in SoA. I do not approve of other item changes DavidW introduces in SCS -- I mean, they are sensible, but hardly necessary: for instance, Shield of Balduran and Cloak of Mirroring are only situationally overpowered, whereas Staff of the Magi and Vhailor's Helm consistently break the game.]

Additional notes:

(a) No fake-talking under any circumstances. Any tactics other than fake-talking are considered kosher.

(b) The difficulty slider should always remain on Insane, with one exception: the player is allowed to maximize his hp on level-up by lowering the difficulty, then bringing it back.

(c) Basic NPC interaction is permitted. You are allowed to accept Anomen into the party to rob him of Delryn Family Shield, for instance. However, you are not allowed to let Imoen pick locks/disarm traps for you at Chateau Irenicus. Any practical gameplay interaction is prohibited, the sole exception to the rule being accepting the character into the party temporarily to trigger his/her personal quest.

(d) When recording, it’s crucial to demonstrate the slider is on Insane and give the potential viewer a good snapshot of your character sheet/inventory. While it’s not strictly obligatory, it’s definitely a bon ton.

(e) Your adventures between the checkpoints remain unrecorded, but a concise schematic verbal description will be more than welcome, if only to answer any potential questions regarding your character’s stats/level/items in advance.

(f) NB! Use the Tactics tp2 file attached to this post instead of the original one to make Improved Ilyich component of the Tactics mod compatible with BG2EE installation-wise.

(g) Since RPG Dungeon site is down again, the most recent versions of Rastor’s Improved Asylum and Super Firkraag are attached to this post as well.

2. Character rules.

 I’m assuming a 86 pts (at the time of BGEE creation process) character that has completed BGEE and consumed all the tomes (+1 Str, Con, Dex, Int, Cha; +3 Dex) for a total of 86 + 8 attribute points. A character should have a total of 161,000 xp -- or less, if the player is so inclined for whatever reason.

[Naturally, one is not expected to finish BGEE with a character in question. You can just create a character in BGEE, then CreateItem the tomes into his/her inventory, and SetCurrentXP to a total of 161,000. It should be noted, though, that this kind of character misses on a sensible set of Bhaalspawn powers, getting an alignment-based predefined set instead – a minor point, of course, yet one that can be somewhat important in a solo playthrough, nevertheless.]

 The following vanilla EE classes/kits and their combinations are allowed: Fighter, Berserker, Kensai, Wizard Slayer, Dwarven Defender, Ranger, Stalker, Archer, Beast Master, Inquisitor, Druid, Totemic Druid, Shapeshifter, Avenger, Shadowdancer, Monk, Dark Moon Monk, Sun Soul Monk, Barbarian. All the rest are forbidden. All races and alignments are allowed.

[This is done mainly to eliminate two utterly unbalanceable game-breaking elements from the playthrough: thief trap/Skull Trap/Glyph of Warding and Protection from Magic Weapons. It's very tempting to use one of these (or both) vs very powerful enemies, yet it can hardly count as a sensible tactic.]

 The character is allowed to transfer two items legitimately obtainable by in-game means in BGEE to BG2EE. Stackable/charged items should be transferred in a 'shop stack' quantity: generally, it's 1 for potions, 5 for magical ammo, 20 for regular ammo. Charged items are transfered with the shop quantity of charges: e. g., Sandthief's Ring is sold at Ulgoth's Beard with 7 charges -- and so it should be transferred with 7 charges. Technically, you start a BG2EE game with an imported character, then just CreateItem the BGEE items of choice in via the console.

[Generally speaking, I allow two items to be transferred for fairness’ sake (or some remote semblance thereof, anyway). Transferring one item proved unsatisfactory balance-wise. Akin to naked Spellhold challenge, the requirement to complete Improved Ilyich solo with no starting equipment at all will essentially eliminate many of the class/kit options that I believe should be left open.

Some pretty tough choices await here. As a barbarian, should I take Twinkle and Icingdeath to be able to fight off Ilyich’s goons? Or, maybe, thinking strategically, it should be Mithral Chain +4, since a barbarian can’t obtain a decent armor for quite a long time in BG2?

Globally, the best way to go about the selection is choosing items that will help you to complete Improved Ilyich. Strategically interesting/important options are plentiful, but if you won't complete Improved Ilyich, your strategic plan will never come to its fruition, anyway.]

 If ferret/cat familiars are used, they are allowed to smuggle one item once per playthrough (this limitation only applies to smuggling items from 'closed' areas like Underdark). If Rift Device is smuggled this way, it cannot be transferred into ToB later on.

[I believe there are exploits, and then there are exploits. There were two of these in BG2 that made the game intolerable: fake-talking and potion-swapping. Potion-swapping is no more present in EE. Fake-talking is still present and I forbid it explicitly. However, the smuggling exploit is so limited that it’s more of a neat little know-how than of an exploit proper. I have decided to make a creative use of it, allowing it in a very limited form (not to mention that’s much less offensive from a strictly logical point of view – it’s not too difficult to imagine that a familiar can smuggle a single drow scimitar or a cloak out of Underdark, but it surely cannot carry half the items from Ust Natha in its little furry paws, magically enhanced as they are).

Again, tough decisions abound. Rift Device for one insta-kill? Drow Full Plate +5 for its unparalleled AC?]

 Any equipment obtained in the course of modded encounters (modded items that modded enemies drop) cannot be used, erm, functionally. Which means, one cannot equip that Scimitar of Frakking Death +6. However, these items still may (and probably should!) be sold for gold.

[The rewards for beating something as difficult as Improved Ilyich or Bredayael's party should not overbalance the remaining part of the game in your favor. An extreme challenge is a reward of its own. I'm serious.]


That’s it, more or less. I intend to start my BG2EE solo playthrough under these rules right now, so this thread will get updated anyway. If anybody else is up to the challenge, you are welcome to post your updates here as well. Just mind the rules, gentlemen.

Tisamon

Well, for the start, I have tried a Blackguard 8 (++shortbow, ++two-handed sword, +two-handed style, +axe, Helmet of Opposite Alignment) and a Totemic Druid 7/Fighter 8 (+++ scimitar, ++ two-weapon style, ++ single-weapon style, + spear, +two-handed style, Icingdeath).

- A blackguard struggles quite a bit vs duergar proletariat (fighters); party members (mages) are a cakewalk (two hits with poisoned arrows). Also, my choice of BGEE item was strategically motivated (Azuredge and Carsomyr): Helmet of Opposite Alignment is worthless here and now. Overall, my estimation is I am going to run out of arrows before I achieve anything (duergar spawn at crazy rate, and blackguard has only 2 Poison Weapon/day at lvl 8, so he's basically quickly overrun). In principle, it might be marginally possible to level-up to 9 (access to Sanctuary; would have to kill 70 [!] duergar for that), after which, life will become much easier. I believe the showdown with Ilyich's party itself will be relatively easy for a blackguard, provided he has enough arrows. The problem is surviving till then.

- A totemic druid/fighter with 2 beefy spirit animals/day that are immune to normal weapons fares much better at this early stage. I suspect I can complete the Improved Ilyich challenge with this character without much trouble. However, I am doubtful regarding his perspectives. What chance does he stand against Breudayael's party or the defenders of Ust Natha? If only his druid level wasn't capped at 7... One is almost tempted to try a pure Totemic Druid: ideal for the Ilyich challenge, plus has some serious potential later on -- loads of Ironskins, Pixie Dust, Nature's Beauty, decent weapon and armor selection. Maybe, maybe.

Tisamon

All right, so I tried a pure Totemic Druid and reconsidered a Blackguard build/strategy.

- A level 10 Totemic Druid with Wis 21 doesn't struggle here. It's the duergar that struggle. Desperately, hehe. Pixie Dust for mass invisibility, Ironskins to soak trap damage/as an additional safety mechanism, Call Woodland Beings to summon 3 nymphs + 2 spirit lions/bears. I took Ankheg Plate as a BGEE item, since druid's armor choices in BG2EE are all good, but somewhat limited and not easy to come by (all dragon scales are sort of hard to obtain). It's all jolly good, really. The problem, as with fighter/druid described above, is the perspective. While a pure druid definitely can complete some of the checkpoint challenges, under no circumstances I see him beating the defenders of Ust Natha. So that's probably a no-go. A pity, really. Druids are neat at higher levels.

- Rethinking some of my blackguard ideas. Transfering Helmet of Opposite Alignment is surely an original approach, but its effectiveness is questionable. All right, Azuredge and Carsomyr are great and all, but (1) a blackguard is capable of taking care of those pesky undead without relying on insta-kills from Azuredge, and (2) none of the checkpoint challenges epitomizes heavy melee fighting (I mean, it can be done, of course, but only if the character feels suicidal -- realistically speaking, crazy damage from poisoned Carsomyr will not save our pseudo-paladin from, say, Improved Bodhi or Breudayael). I'm still not ready to drop this idea totally. Let's wait and see how it works. What I am ready to drop are my blackguard's proficiency choices. Given the scarcity of ammo, I think sling ++, shortbow ++, axe ++ would be more appropriate. Anyway, to the best of my judgment, I'm not getting Carsomyr before level 13-14, so there is no need to worry about the lack of pips in two-handed sword/two-handed style.

Tisamon

- Finally dropping the Helmet of Opposite Alignment route as impractical. I'm becoming more and more convinced the only way a solo blackguard can survive the early stages of Improved Ilyich (pre-party battle) is by investing into all the ranged weapons available in the starting cache, then killing ~70 duergar to gain access to Sanctuary (see below).

- Some sort of invisibility is crucial in Improved Ilyich, otherwise you just get overrun by insane hordes of cannon-fodder duergar (proletariat and party members).

- Next thing I'm going to try is the following setup: dart +, sling +, crossbow +, shortbow ++, scimitar +, Bracers of Archery. That gives me access to 80 bullets, 80 darts, 80 bolts, 160 arrows. Should be enough to kill those 70 duergar with Poison Weapon. (Two pips in shortbow because of Tuigan and, later, Gesen; one in scimitar to be able to dual-wield Usuno/Belm at 15 with no penalty to main hand, plus a neat trick involving Kachiko's Wakizashi I'm not ready to reveal just yet).

Tisamon

- Probably a slight concept overhaul is due. I have completed Improved Ilyich with a Totemic Druid (Ankheg Plate) and with an elven Assassin (Cloak of Non-Detection). But are these characters viable during the following challenges? It's highly questionable. Perhaps even more importantly, Improved Ilyich is _harder than I remembered_, thus, my attempt to restore a modicum of fairness by allowing to transfer one item from BGEE looks pathetic. I really want this starting challenge to be open for a wide variety of classes/builds, not just for assassins and druids.

- I'm thinking allowing _two importable items_ might do the trick (believe me or not, it actually makes a huge difference). On the same note, I intend to allow stackable items to be imported following the shop stack logic (i. e., one stack is 1 Potion of Invisibility/5 Arrows of Detonation/20 bullets). The same applies to the charged items (e. g., Sandthief's Ring has 7 charges in Ulgoth's Beard shop -- therefore, it would be imported with 7 charges).

- I don't think Improved Ilyich (or any of the challenges I've chosen, for that matter) is easily overbalanced, especially solo, so this is just fine tuning.

Gotural

Now we're talking about a really very hard challenge ! I don't think I could complete this one, as opposed to the previous one we were discussing about a few days ago.

You have made some solid progress so far ! And since you were so kind to put the EE compatible files for some of the tactics battles, I definitely think I'm going to try it !

I might slightly change some rules, but nothing gamebreaking like allowing myself some more points in the character creation, just because I don't like playing a 3 charisma character for optimisation sake, but in exchange, all enemies are going to have max hp with the BG2 Tweakpack mod for example.

For now, I think a Sorcerer could do all the latter battles, but I don't see myself completing the Improved Ilyich with so little experience. It's going to be painfully hard !

Tisamon

I've honestly had thoughts of '86 pts rule' being somewhat superfluous, but only because 86+8 leaves a typical human warrior or rogue with 19/19/19/9/9/19. If you are a wizard or a cleric, the 9's are obviously not in Int/Wis, but you get the general picture. I mean, that's probably a high enough roll by any standards

Tisamon

It probably goes without saying, but just to clarify things a wee bit: completing Improved Ilyich challenge essentially means defeating Ilyich's party (Ilyich, Karamazov, Zhivago, Rasputin, Jailkeep Golem, Neophyte Glabrezu). One _is not required_ to kill Greater Otyugh, duergar war-parties, etc.

Also, any tactics are fine as long as they do not involve fake-talking and yield results. Taking advantage of the somewhat crummy AI is not shameful at all when the odds are so overwhelming.

Gotural

Yeah the goal is to outsmart the AI, not to exploit it.

Tisamon

Well, there is a fine line between the two. I don't understand why many players consider it - for a lack of a better term - honorable to rush the enemy without slightest preparation. From a RP point of view - do you owe something to these illithids or to that red dragon? Of course, a balance must be kept -- some things just take the fun and the challenge out of the game. Overall, though, I firmly believe that any exploit, save two (fake-talking and potion-swapping) can be outbalanced by installing the right difficulty mods. Love spamming Skull Traps pre-battle? Well, good luck with that versus Super Firkragg. Et caetera, et caetera.

Improved Ilyich is a mod where the difficulty is raised _in a correct way_ -- as opposed, alas, to the majority of modifications DavidW introduces in SCS. I love David's work, don't get me wrong. I just think enhancing the enemies through better AI scripting is, in general, much less efficient than enhancing them via the brute-force approach, i. e. stat-wise. Of course, Improved Ilyich also gives Ilyich's party some enhanced scripting, but - let's face it - that's not what makes it so brutally difficult.

Gotural

Well, I think both are good. Sometimes you manage to beat a completely overpowered encounter by finding a flaw in their AI and it feels as awesome that when you manage to beat a balanced but very smart encounter by outsmarting it.

Tisamon

Agreed. However, my point essentially is that it is practically much easier to create a 'completely overpowered encounter' in BG2, than a 'balanced, but very smart' one. The limitations of the engine are such that you can't make your enemies too smart, try as you will. So the most viable alternative for difficulty mods is to make those enemies, well, just very strong. "Dumb, but incredibly strong" formula works well in BG/BG2. "Balanced, but very smart" -- eh, not so much.

Tisamon

All right, so here's my annotated Improved Ilyich walkthrough done in 8 segments:

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lw-983I9Y
2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsDttjQ1N50
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a3RkB1hVQU
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIWLGyuDG5M
5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ-r5LVm3Nc
6. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7jsDlSLIY
7. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gB4KUdgJIE4
8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJGkt8MnyyY

After the challenge, I intend to make a quick backtracking trip through this level, gathering as many higher-level scrolls and magic items for sale as possible (I'm still not sure whether I should keep the Helm of Balduran for UAI levels -- it's great, sure, but Visage is slightly better, IMHO). Then level 2 of Irenicus' dungeon, which I plan to rush (do the mephits room quickly, stealth, run to the bridge, cross, take the right passage to the exit, start chapter I).

Tisamon

Irenicus' Dungeon after Imp. Ilyich's party: some notes en passant.

- Since my assassin invested all of his thieving points in HiS/MS and ST, he can hardly detect traps, and surely can't disarm any. The best way to go about that (you absolutely have to face at least 3 very damaging traps: Helm of Balduran's, portal key's, and the trapped bridge at dungeon level 2) is by casting Vampiric Touch + Larloch's Minor Drain on inanimate objects, which results in a huge hp surplus allowing you to tank the trap damage.

- Trying to go back to the Plane of Air is probably not worth the hassle: the duergar block the access, and while you surely can force them to open the passage by luring, that means a lot of by-and-large unnecessary time investment. Sword of Chaos is simply not that expensive.

- Dungeon level 2. The only important rule is: do not rest here! The mephit room is slightly tougher than in an unmodded game (8 mephits instead of 4), so quaff some potions and set some traps if needed, but still -- do not rest. Resting makes a horde of duergar appear in the mephit room (and probably elsewhere), basically turning this fight to extremely difficult.

Tisamon

- Chapter I is essentially restricted to Waukeen's Promenade, since you can travel from here only to the Slums. There is not much to do here, honestly. I did the Aerie quest, but I'm still ~70k short of level 12.

- After I've sold all of Ilyich's party gear, plus some minor magical treasure, plus Helm of Balduran (decided in favor of the Visage at UAI levels), I've made about 12k gold -- just enough to buy Aeger's Hide +3. While there are better thief armors in SoA (Shadow Dragon Scale - no doubt; Bladesinger Chain, Drow Adamantine Chain +5, and Armor of the Viper - with some reservations), they all are tough to obtain. Shadow Dragon Scale is available relatively early, but not right now, anyway, since it involves leaving the city. Now, in comparison to other AC 3 armors, Aeger's Hide is clearly the best one: elemental resistances, confusion immunity, no thieving penalties (though other hide armors usually do apply a penalty).

- Improved Mencar's party preliminary analysis. These guys are tougher than Ilyich's party level-, stat-, and item-wise, but also much easier to kill due to their location and being initially non-hostile. The location is extremely convenient: they will chase you through 3 areas, all of which can be trapped for a grand total of 21 poison traps. Being non-hostile actually means you move first, and that's a huge advantage. Of course, there is also a matter of no frakking duergar war-parties spawning everywhere. In my opinion, I can take care of the fighters easily enough, but Sorcerous Amon seems very powerful, and pre-buffs like crazy. Let's see how it goes.

ICN

Gotural said:

Now we're talking about a really very hard challenge ! I don't think I could complete this one, as opposed to the previous one we were discussing about a few days ago.

You have made some solid progress so far ! And since you were so kind to put the EE compatible files for some of the tactics battles, I definitely think I'm going to try it !

I might slightly change some rules, but nothing gamebreaking like allowing myself some more points in the character creation, just because I don't like playing a 3 charisma character for optimisation sake, but in exchange, all enemies are going to have max hp with the BG2 Tweakpack mod for example.

For now, I think a Sorcerer could do all the latter battles, but I don't see myself completing the Improved Ilyich with so little experience. It's going to be painfully hard !

Sorcerer can beat Improved Ilyich with 2 magic items. I tried it, though I forgot about the difficulty slider, and it's certainly doable. Make sure you have invisibility and stoneskin as spells, and choose boots of speed and the quarterstaff +3 for your magic items. You can take on any single member of Ilyich's group, and they like to split up and never open doors.

Tisamon

ICN said:

Sorcerer can beat Improved Ilyich with 2 magic items. I tried it, though I forgot about the difficulty slider, and it's certainly doable. Make sure you have invisibility and stoneskin as spells, and choose boots of speed and the quarterstaff +3 for your magic items. You can take on any single member of Ilyich's group, and they like to split up and never open doors.

While far from being a sorcerer expert, I don't see how one deals with Karamazov, Ilyich, or Rasputin as a sorcerer. They surely like to split up due to differences in movement speed, but the window of opportunity is narrow. Given that a sorcerer at level 9 can cast only 1st-4th level spells, and at least some of the slots at level 3 (where the truly damaging spells reside) are going to be occupied by Non-Detection (otherwise, your Invisibility is worthless; Zhivago casts True Sight right away), I don't know how you suggest to work through those 135 hp + magic resistance at 1 spell/round. Note that you can't just rest and proceed -- these guys heal up to full health. Also, how do you deal with the Glabrezu? With the fallen deva summoned by Zhivago?

ICN

Tisamon said:

ICN said:

Sorcerer can beat Improved Ilyich with 2 magic items. I tried it, though I forgot about the difficulty slider, and it's certainly doable. Make sure you have invisibility and stoneskin as spells, and choose boots of speed and the quarterstaff +3 for your magic items. You can take on any single member of Ilyich's group, and they like to split up and never open doors.

While far from being a sorcerer expert, I don't see how one deals with Karamazov, Ilyich, or Rasputin as a sorcerer. They surely like to split up due to differences in movement speed, but the window of opportunity is narrow. Given that a sorcerer at level 9 can cast only 1st-4th level spells, and at least some of the slots at level 3 (where the truly damaging spells reside) are going to be occupied by Non-Detection (otherwise, your Invisibility is worthless; Zhivago casts True Sight right away), I don't know how you suggest to work through those 135 hp + magic resistance at 1 spell/round. Note that you can't just rest and proceed -- these guys heal up to full health. Also, how do you deal with the Glabrezu? With the fallen deva summoned by Zhivago?

Huh, maybe one of my other mods borked up the install or something, because I didn't see much of that. The only one that had enough magic resistance to make meleeing the only option was the Golem, and Zhivago was the only one I noticed healing himself. He does try to cast True Sight, but Melf's Acid Arrow only takes two seconds to cast and interrupts him for several rounds afterwards. Never even saw the deva. I didn't have trouble splitting them up, since they seemed to forget about me as soon as I was out of eyesight.

Tisamon

Well, Zhivago casts Heal after being idle for 10 turns, but they all definitely regenerate to full hp if you rest. At least, those were my observations, and I've spent enough time in their company yesterday

On Melf's Acid Arrow: and how do you cast it without going visible, in the first place? Or do you mean casting first, then going invisible? Hmph. Again, I'm no magic-user player -- this class/kit category never interested me much (with the possible exceptions of bards), so I'm having a bit of a hard time here. I'm surely willing to give you the benefit of the doubt: after all, sorcerers are overpowered with carefully planned spell picks.

On the matter of other mods interfering with Imp. Ilyich: yes, this is possible, and if your experience was significantly different from mine, this is the case, probably. You know how it goes: it's enough that one creature script gets overriden. I list the mods that are compatible (and the proper order of installation) in the main post.

ICN

With the acid arrow I was invisible going in, and when I saw Zhivago casting True Sight I hit him with that and ran away until only one of the group was chasing me.

I did try to get those mods, but I wasn't able to find IA or SF. Eventually I decided just to throw Ilyich on top of what I already had and see how it goes. I think I'll try uninstalling all my other mods and just using Ilyich for now, because I would like to try the real version.

Tisamon

ICN said:

I did try to get those mods, but I wasn't able to find IA or SF.

"(g) Since RPG Dungeon site is down again, the most recent versions of Rastor’s Improved Asylum and Super Firkraag are attached to this post as well."

Tisamon

ICN said:

I think I'll try uninstalling all my other mods and just using Ilyich for now, because I would like to try the real version.

If you really wish to go that far, it's crucial you uninstall EVERYTHING, Ilyich included, then re-install Ilyich. Also, after the uninstall, check your override folder for files -- many mods, SCS, for example, fail to uninstall properly, so you have to help them out

Tisamon

- Well, I've completed Improved Mencar (or very nearly so, Brendan is still alive). What can I say? Traps, traps, and then some more traps. It was no fun at all, felt more like an idiotic chore, to be honest (set traps - rest - set traps - rest - move to a different area - set traps, etc.). I really think I should abandon this challenge project in its present form and reformulate the rules once more. I didn't feel that way after Improved Ilyich, mainly because it's so goddamn hard, and also because it actually forces the player to resort to different tactics, rather than to simple trap-spamming. "So don't spam traps, what's the problem?", you say. The problem is that thieves (except Shadowdancer) are BUILT around trap-spamming, that's their main forte. So it's a bit like saying: "So don't use any abjuration and illusion spells with your mage, what's the problem?". Yeah, sure.

- I'm thinking of limiting the protagonist to the following classes/kits and their combinations: Fighter (all kits), Ranger (all kits), Inquisitor, Barbarian, Druid (all kits), Monk (all kits), Shadowdancer. That will take care of the following unbalanceable game elements: thief trap/Skull Trap/Glyph of Warding; Protection from Magic Weapons. These break the game by virtually eliminating any semblance of challenge, even in the context of difficulty mods.

Tisamon

Rules updated. I want this challenge to be free from idiotic pseudo-tactics that always work.

[Deleted User]

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ICN

Well, I reinstalled the game with all the mods, and Ilyich still didn't regenerate. Did see the deva during a couple attempts though. Already had it done before I saw the updated rules, but since I'm not using Skull Trap or PFMW I don't think it's really a problem. Anyways, here's the video.

http://youtu.be/HSNIC9SP3Ek

Gotural

I don't think Skull Trap / Traps can break the whole challenge. Against Defenders of Ust Natha or Improved Irenicus, you won't be able to rest at all I think. And I actually think your Assassin is a suicide idea because of the latest fights which are IMO strictly impossible for this class.

Anyway I don't like restricting the choices for the character creation, I would say that one should first finish this challenge before adding some more rules. Protection from Magic Weapons can be breached or dispelled after all.

Tisamon

Sergio said:

According to me, if you wish a tougher but fair challenge, why don't you get scs and all the improved content?

I'm sure you mean well, but I'm hardly naive or inexperienced I have a very, very solid idea of how SCS works, and, in fact, I do use parts of it during this challenge. In a nutshell, the issue with SCS is pretty simple: whenever it attempts to make enemies smarter (improved AI scripts), not stronger (numerically, type- or stat-wise), it is not very successful for a variety of reasons. I have no burning desire to discuss smarter vs stronger in IE modding and the specific shortcomings of SCS in detail for the umpteenth time now, unless you feel you really must.

(The rest of your post consists of your individual assessment I happen to disagree with, so it's sort of pointless to reply to it.)

Tisamon

Gotural said:

I don't think Skull Trap / Traps can break the whole challenge. Against Defenders of Ust Natha or Improved Irenicus, you won't be able to rest at all I think. And I actually think your Assassin is a suicide idea because of the latest fights which are IMO strictly impossible for this class.

Anyway I don't like restricting the choices for the character creation, I would say that one should first finish this challenge before adding some more rules. Protection from Magic Weapons can be breached or dispelled after all.

Impossible? More like "impossibly easy". I have a plan for every fight if we are talking assassin.

You know very well PfMW won't get dispelled or breached with no SCS scripts. And you know very well that the majority of challenges DO allow resting and trap-spamming.

How can you think setting 100 Skull Traps peacefully in one place, then luring some super-enhanced enemy into their range is fair play, is beyond my comprehension. In fact, thief traps are limited at least. Skull Traps/Glyphs of Warding are not. Let's face it: you can basically beat the whole unmodded SoA with a naked level 5 cleric, provided you have loads of spare time. You don't have to be an Einstein, really -- just set those Glyphs of Warding religiously and don't forget to Sanctuary if something goes wrong (but why would it?).

NB! I didn't forbid it explicitly from the start just because I was a bit out of practice with trap-capable classes. Now I remember.

That said, if you really want to play a sorcerer without Skull Trap and PfMW, be my guest. My intuition tells me you don't, though You know why sorcerers are so popular in a context of solo runs? Especially touching are the so-called 'poverty' runs with sorcerers (given the fact equipment doesn't change much for a wizard). Because it's cool feeling so-frakking-resourceful-and-yeah-basically-a-Napoleon-of-BG2-mate when you spam a couple of spells the AI cannot cope with. With these gone, things suddenly look grim.

PS: Ah, defenders of Ust Natha is done with poisoned Arrows of Detonation as an assassin. No traps. You don't feel like an imbecile

PPS: When I'm talking about extreme challenge, the extreme part does not refer to a test of patience ("Can this guy really set 114,234 traps?"). I hope we didn't have a misunderstanding at that point, yes?

Tisamon

ICN said:

Well, I reinstalled the game with all the mods, and Ilyich still didn't regenerate. Did see the deva during a couple attempts though. Already had it done before I saw the updated rules, but since I'm not using Skull Trap or PFMW I don't think it's really a problem. Anyways, here's the video.

http://youtu.be/HSNIC9SP3Ek

Thanks, mate. I'll watch it later, as I'm curious how a sorcerer does it The total runtime is comparable. I think mine was slightly over 35 minutes.

On a slightly nihilistic note, though: if you are correct, and Ilyich doesn't regenerate (I've seen Karamazov regenerate after rest w/o any potions involved -- of that I'm sure), what kind of challenge this is? You can just use the 'come out of the doorway-poke him for 1 hp-go back' algorithm 135 times... Hmmm.

Tisamon

Gotural said:

Anyway I don't like restricting the choices for the character creation, I would say that one should first finish this challenge before adding some more rules.

Neither do I, but telling people not to use traps as thieves and certain spells as mages is actually worse.

And I think I have enough experience with this game to be qualified to change my own rules on the fly I see where exactly this is going now. People (me included) choose naturally the easiest and the most reliable way -- wizards and rogues. After I've given it some thought: no, I want none of the cheap age-old semi-exploits mistaken for tactics in this challenge. I'm playing IE games since 2001, I've basically discovered some of the cheesiest ways to defeat enemies and accomplish objectives, during speedruns and otherwise (under a different nickname). So forgive me if I'm a bit tired of cheese. I'd rather grind it out with a dumb barbarian, than set yet another billion of traps.