Thief/Illusionist multi OR Swash/Mage dual?

PUFPAF

So guys what you believe will be more enjoyable throuh SoA and ToB for a party of 4-6?

I started the Swash and dualled at L10, but I already regret missing on backstab. Also i find the swashy specialization a bit useless due to lack of extra attack. I took points in shortbow and quarterstaff as the low level of swashy does not allow for effective DW proficiencies.

I am thinking to start over and go either thief/illusionist multiclass or dual the swash at higher level in order to have decent detect illusion and traps.

What would you prefer and what proficiencies would you take?

JuliusBorisov

Hello, @PUFPAF‌ , an welcome to the forum!

I don't like dualled characters because they no longer develop in the second class and you have to wait till they get their levels back. Especially when I play with a party.

An illusionist/thief is one of my favourite characters, very solid and fun. He combines thieving abilities with magic, constantly developing both. I like when my thief has 100% in Detect Illusion and can set traps. I also like backstabbing that in this case can be done with the help of Invisibility spells.

As a weapon, I prefer a dagger for poisonous damage in BG1 and a staff for insane backstabs with Staff of Striking and other decent stuffs.

FinneousPJ

Keeper a Swash/Mage multi

Donk

Difficult question to answer as enjoyment is the result of personal preference but I have recently completed a play through as a Fighter/Cleric and I loved it.

The class combination is of course no where near as powerful as some of the insane builds out there but fighter weapon proficiency in melee paired with the clerics spells is a marvelous mix, especially when you rely purely on the fighter aspect for damage and fill all of your priest slots with defensive/support spells.

Another added bonus to this simple combination is wearing armor will not hinder your spell casting in any way and although Clerics are limited to blunt weapons it hardly felt to me like much a of a limitation at all seeing as there are some excellent blunt weapons in the game and at various points of progress in the story no less so it's not as though you're stuck, waiting to get to a certain area etc.

I was able to handle most situations easily (normal difficulty setting) and actually went for a hammer/shield build. A lot of people have stated that it's the least powerful of the weapon styles to put points into but I found that the added missile deflection of shields went a long way in avoiding spell interruption during casting via those annoying archer types and being able to quickly cast Sanctuary for example and drop some heals on myself mid-combat was a boon indeed!

Late game, some of the Clerics spells that are probably intended to be defensive countermeasures mesh really well with the Fighter play style, for example, globe of blades on a Fighter is grand seeing as I'm going to be in melee regardless, having that extra damage pumping out while I'm swinging around my hammer is a nice boost to off-set the damage loss of not using a two handed weapon or paired one handed weapons.

Finally, the class combination does hold it's own well enough through the game. Some class combinations are strong early in the game, others are late bloomers but I found Fighter/Cleric to be reasonably solid right through. As previously stated, not as excessive as some builds but I found it to be:

* Reliable (Dependable in a fight)
* Consistent (Not overly dependent on charges of unique abilities or specific skills)
* Versatile (Adaptable enough to be useful in almost all situations in the game - can't handle traps or locks)
* Fun (I should hope you know what fun is)

DreadKhan

The biggest problem with the swash is when to dual. Dual too too early, and you're screwed over in terms of capabilities as a thief in a party... too late and it CAN be boring to regain abilities, and you will need a 'filler' thief for utility at least. Swashbuckler to mage duals really are about utility imho, and is the realm of small or solo parties. You should try and dual earliar in this case. For stranger, more combatative duals, you need to dual late enough that your combat boni matter. Which is why these duals are more rare; dualing out at lvl +15 is tedious at best, but you can get strong ToB characters that way.

Imho, dual out of swash as soon as you can disarm traps if you're an advanced player. Consider maxing detect illusions too, and set traps, but the other thief abilities can be replicated by mage spells. Beginners might like having Open Locks and even stealth, but these arent required. You are likely a ranged combatant in BG1, but in BG2 you will use spells mostly.

Thief/Illusionists are great problem solvers though. You'll have tons of hla traps, maxed thief skills including pick pockets, and you can use your high number of spell slots for more combatative uses, which is nice. You will be slowerto get high level spells (7th, 8th and 9th), but you will get UAI, which gives lots of tricks for you to use. This build is better at full party play imho than a high level dual, and probably more fun.

Wowo

With the 10/x dual you get 4 proficiency points for:
-scimitar**
-TWF'ing**

Then when you dual take dagger* and don't take level 6 Mage until you have enough XP for Mage 11 which will let you put your level 6 weapon proficiency in Shortsword.

By Swashbuckler 10/Mage 12 you can have:
Scimitar**
Short Sword**
TWF'ing**
Dagger*

Grab Belm and Kundane and you're at 8 APR with improved haste, 9 once you add gauntlets.

Fill out your party with casters, clerics and large weapon users who won't miss the APR weapons (Minsc, Anomen, Keldorn, Rasaad, Dorn, Sarevok).

Occasionally you'll be stuck with 4 APR vs enemies that need +3 or greater to hit but you'll be a full fledged Mage as well so can step back and blast in those cases.

Glidderdust

It all depends on how you play and the makeup of your party.

Swash/Mage is essentially a slightly more powerful version of Imoen, depending on when you dual. It's a very good character to have through Chapter 2 if you don't take another thief or mage but becomes redundant if you pick up Imoen. Only one of them will be using their thief skills since you would probably want to max out locks and traps on your swash/mage. This character paired with Imoen is a very powerful arcane combo as soon as you pick her up.

I would never use a Swash 10/Mage X in melee. He's a mage with a couple thief skills mixed in.

You could always pick up Jan to be the party's illusionist/mage.

Personally I'd go with the multi class variety. Max out locks and traps asap and then flesh out the other skills as the game progresses. You won't need another thief for the rest of the saga and he'll be a good backup mage until later in the game when he has a ton of HLA's. You can accomplish that quicker if you only use a party of four.

If thief HLA's and backstabbing aren't important for you then go swash10/mage.

manutd_fan_1999

I'd go the dual if you need your PC to also be the primary mage (eg. with a multi class NPC such as Quayle (BG1) or Aerie), multi if you have someone else who can be the primary mage (eg. a single class or early dual class mage such as BG2's Imoen or Nalia)

GamingFreak

Depends on what you ultimately want out of your character. Do you want a mage who can lay down traps to protect himself and fire out spells? Do you want him to backstab enemies using illusion spells to make it easier to do so? Or do you just want the basic thieving tools and have access to thief-weapons while casting spells?

If it's the former two, Multi is much better, especially with bonus spells. If it's the latter, dual-classing is perfectly fine, as getting to level 10 or so as a thief is more than easy, and that means you'd just have to memorize spells and complete a few quests to get your thief levels back as a mage.

smyth25

Just thought I would drop this in here because I was personally really proud of this one but it looks to me like you want a tactical character (as in relies on using abilities such as magic and backstabbing) rather than a tank fighting character.
Well I think what you need is a Cleric/Thief Half-Orc multiclass, this is good as it combines spells and thieving abilities with higher strength and constitution giving you the best of both worlds. An added bonus of this is if you can have an intelligence of atleast 8 you can cast mage spells from scrolls when you get UAI.
This class is especially good for soloing but also sounds like a working idea for parties too. I would reccomend crom faeyr as a weapon but if you want to keep backstabbing try blackblood +3 or staff of striking.

Bercon

Wowo said:

By Swashbuckler 10/Mage 12 you can have:
Scimitar**
Short Sword**
TWF'ing**
Dagger*

Grab Belm and Kundane and you're at 8 APR with improved haste, 9 once you add gauntlets.

But do you actually hit anything with such a poor thac0?

jackjack

Illusionist/Thief. Wonderful synergy, 100% uptime and HLAs for both classes, shorty saves, possible 19 intelligence, and a cooler beard.

JLee

mumumomo

Swash 10 / mage: poor melee fighter, good caster, ok thief. if you dual so early, the swash is not the best choice as a kit (you will end up sucking too much in melee, so you will spend all your time casting, which renders the swash bonus quite useless). I would rather choose to be assassin 10/mage (poison weapon is horribly OP)

Swash 20 / mage: need 6M xp to complete, which is too much unless you are playing solo (and even then, i would not do it)
Very strong choice since a swash 20 can fight very decently (good thaco, great damage, good APR with speed weapons and improve haste) and has more than enough thieving skills.

My choice would rather go to the thief/illu anyway for the reasons given by jackjack

Bercon

10 lvl swashy gives you 100% open locks, detect traps and detect illusion. He also gets 2 thac0/dmg bonus and 3 ac bonus. Thats not so bad when using melf minute meteors for example. However, I don't see how he would survive or hit anything in melee. What it does do is entirely remove the need to have another thief in the party and is still a full mage.

Wanderon

Not many thief skills for assassin 10/mage only 150 skill points to share (unless they get more at creation than 15 which they might but thats still only another 15ish).

mumumomo

I think they get 30 at creation. 165 total is enough to max disarm traps and locks, which is enough to remove the need for another thief

Wanderon

mumumomo said:

I think they get 30 at creation. 165 total is enough to max disarm traps and locks, which is enough to remove the need for another thief

Is that the new math? LOL Max to me would be 100 each making 165 a little short!

That said I just tried one and you start at level 8 with enough to get 90 in each so you could have 105 in each by level 10 which would indeed max both but I'm thinking you might still have trouble hitting something to use your poison and of course you get no other thief skills either.

I'd vote for thief/illusionist myself but then I'm partial to gnomes anyway.

Bercon

165 which you can choose. Depending on your race, you also start with some default stats in each category. Personally I just feel swashy vs. assassin, swashy is better because you get more points and you get permanent bonuses for throwing MMMs and armor class. Anyhow, I don't think you'll be playing as a "thief" i.e. backstabbing or melee fighting with either choice. You are a mage that can do thief utility stuff.