Ability Scores
Calmar
Member Posts: 688
I'll get straight to the Point: What do you guys think about an *optional* mode for IWD:EE where you don't roll for your ability scores at character generation, but distribute a set amount of points? Similar to the way it's handled in IWD II.
Don't get me wrong, I like it the way it is and I think the automatical summing of the ability points like we have it in BG:EE is already pretty comfortable, but I'm thinking about playing through my beloved IWD(:EE) with my even more beloved girlfriend and I don't want to scare her off by having to spend an hour or so to roll countless times untill I get decent scores for all six heroes.
Don't get me wrong, I like it the way it is and I think the automatical summing of the ability points like we have it in BG:EE is already pretty comfortable, but I'm thinking about playing through my beloved IWD(:EE) with my even more beloved girlfriend and I don't want to scare her off by having to spend an hour or so to roll countless times untill I get decent scores for all six heroes.
4
Comments
However, it does feel like it's kind of for it's own sake when you always have the option of just enabling the console commands and generating tomes to get yourself up to the roll you were going for without spending 3 hours hitting "Reroll" to try and get that 95 you know is possible (Or you accidentally rolled past because you were getting hazy from looking at those numbers). Then it just becomes your own personal preference of what's acceptable and seems completely arbitrary.......
I see how not rolling is the ideal way for new comers going forward. However, since it's part of my childhood memories I prefer rolling still out of nostalgia's sake.......... (Even if the logical part of my brain is telling me how asinine it is wasting all that time......)
I do think it's wholly unneccessary though. You don't need to spend an hour rolling, you don't need "great" characters. Maxing your primary stat and having high Constitution/Dexterity scores can be easily done with a roll of... 84 I believe (still more used to my own way of counting the stats, heh) and it's not hard getting a roll total of that. So if you just want to get quickly into the game without making a big fuss about the stats, just get quickly into the game without making a big fuss about the stats
Hopefully Overhaul won't start adding new features of -any- kind to the EE games until they've given us our BGII:EE patch though. Which, with any luck, will take precedence over ID:EE's post-launch patch. I say post-launch because I can't imagine them implementing new features to it at this point in development.
Also key imo, in IWD you probably wanted higher scores vs BG... in IWDEE, I think lesser stats will do well enough, soo... more or less, it could work as an option. Not sure its necessary though, just settle for the odd 85.
I would say its a huge impact if, for example, you don't have any warriors with an exceptional strength; or a cleric with more than the minimum of spells. You have to get more extravagant in your use of potions, wands, scrolls....
I love the difference. I love the characters who break the prototypes. And I love the chaos of a randomly generated party.
Obviously, there's no reason why you can't still do randomly generated scores with the later rule sets. I might enjoy 3.5 a lot more if that were allowed for. I know its among the options listed in PNP. But for whatever reason, CRPGs ALL switched to point buy systems with the advent of 3E. Darn shame.
I think that's exactly why 3.x games use the point buy system. To take out the "annoying" part of having to fish for a high list of scores.
Though keep in mind that in 3.x, the benefits are more spread. In 2.x, scores between 7 and 14 are nearly identical, and below and above that, they suddenly start to ramp up. In 3.x, every 2 points up increases the modifier by +1, which is a much smoother division.
And I did talk about CRPGs, yes
I suspect they'd put it at 80, a nice mid-point between 75 and 85. I'd be fine with that. I don't need all of my characters to have good Con, Dex, and Primary Stat.
For CRPGs, having low stats simply means pressing the reroll button for a lot of players.
For TTRPGs, is it really fun to be walking around with a strength 11 fighter when the other fighter managed to roll a strength of 16, meaning your character will be in his shadows for the entire campaign, just because you had one crappy roll at the very very start of it?
Also keep in mind that most systems use a weighted point buy system. For example, the default 3.x point buy system gives you 25 credits to spend on 6 ability scores:
score 8 = 0 credits
score 9 = 1 credit
score 10 = 2 credits
score 11 = 3 credits
score 12 = 4 credits
score 13 = 5 credits
score 14 = 6 credits
score 15 = 8 credits
score 16 = 10 credits
score 17 = 13 credits
score 18 = 16 credits
It provides meaningful choices. Do you really want to take that 18 in your primary score, knowing that your other scores will suffer badly, or are you happy with 16 or maybe even 14 and be a much more rounded character?
It's only logical and thus roleplay that a physically strong character will study to become a fighter and that a smart character will study to become a mage.
If you like to play random and horribly weak characters it's all good for you and I'm definitely not going to tell you how to play D&D but it's not more "roleplay" or interesting.
In a roleplay setting, a Fighter with 11 str will never reach the third level, because he is weak. His only purpose is to die at the hands of some Gnolls and nothing else. In the same roleplay setting, epic level characters should all be optimised in some way, because you need to be very powerful to be able to reach level 30 without dying.
Plus I support the opinion that playing a crappy character with rolls like 15, 13 and 12 when there is another character with some 18,17,18 rolls is everything but interesting. You will feel completely empty and useless during the whole game and you won't be able to contribute to your party.
That's why I totally prefer the point buy system in PnP, but in a computer game where you can instantly reroll as much as you can, I prefer to roll my character. Because as @TheRaven476 said there is some form of excitement about rolling that sweet 18/97 str and so on.
You can also be excited if you get a really good roll too. Maybe you could spend a bit longer if you have a specific leader of the party in mind.
Let's take two players, Bob and Joe.
Bob is a hardcore gamer. He's played a lot of computer games and by experience is decently good at them. He's really going to sink his teeth into the game, and spends an hour to get a nice 96 roll total. His character is pretty strong, which negates quite a bit of the challenge that the enemies provide. He's ready for some hard content, but content isn't really hard enough to satisfy him, since he spent that one hour to make his character really strong.
Joe is a casual gamer. He thought the game looked shiny, so he picked it up, looking to do a bit of world exploration. All the stats and stuff look pretty dull to him, so after pressing reroll a few times, he gets a 78 roll which is higher than the previous couple of rolls, so he goes with that. He wants to go out and explore the world, talk to some NPCs, perhaps have a bit of combat. But his character is so weak that every single fight, especially those early on, prove a major challenge to poor Joe. It takes a lot of effort to beat those initial challenges, and he constantly needs to rest to prepare for the next fight, making the whole ordeal rather sluggish.
Perhaps a little exaggerated, but that's exactly the impact that rolling stats for your character has on the game. While point buy might take a bit of excitement out of rolling stats for some, rolling stats is nothing but a chore for others, and nobody is really benefited by the end result.
Bob the hardcore gamer would still have maxed the important stats should he have stuck with a roll of 78.
In Germany, we have the word "verschlimmbessern". Online dictionnaries translate it as "to disimprove". I really feel Beamdog must be careful not to step into that trap, and I think in a few aspects they have already gone too far in the existing EE games. Let's not make it worse.
I don't disagree with the general assessment, though--rerolling stats for something just a little bit better can be tedious while allocating (and I am primarily thinking of games like Fallout) makes most characters essentially the same, stat-wise. Neither method upsets me, though.
Note that BG/BG2/IWD actually do use a point buy system of sorts. You basically roll a total amount of points, which you can then reorganize as you please, which is more along point buy than "Roll 3d6 6 times, that are your scores."
I do agree that point buy does lead to more similar characters, but only to a certain degree. When I roll 2 characters, to me, it should be their race, class and assigned skills that define them, not just how lucky I was on those initial rolls. If I roll 2 human fighters who focus on sword and board style, then yes, if I make the same choices for them, they should end up similar.
On the other end of the coin, does the BG/BG2/IWDEE style really lead to different characters? Scores around 80 are a lot. Save for certain minimum requirements for scores you're not really interested in, you could have 4 18s already. Say you roll a half-orc fighter, and give him 19 Str, 17 Dex, 19 Con, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. On your next run through, you roll a little better, and end up with 9 Int, 9 Wis, 9 Cha. Is that really going to make a difference?
Now the re-rollers and the point-buyers argue their sides with equal vigor. I've played both styles of games and from my experience there isn't much difference, at least to me. For one thing, there are almost always ways to fix up a less than stellar character either through found items (Gauntlets of Dexterity, Girdles of Giant Strength, Tomes, etc.), or through leveling (In several point-buy games I've played characters periodically receive new stat points on level up or can boost their stats with feats and skills).
Power gamers, regardless of their preferred character creation, will argue that all of those things will be even better with optimal stat development during creation, to which I ask why not just use an editor or the in-game cheats? As others have mentioned before, here and elsewhere, if you're going to spend hours rolling until you get that perfect roll, a task few seem to enjoy, then why not just give yourself the stat you want in the first place and move on?
Bob and Joe could both save themselves a ton of pain with Ctrl-8 and then move on to having fun. Joe, in particular, would be more likely to survive and learn the game's systems. Then, if he wanted to, he could go back and roll the old fashioned way with some idea of what he was doing. Bob could set everything to maximum and then dial back the scores to a level he felt was fair (equal to whatever number he was going to wait hours for anyway, say 94), and move on to using his best strategies to smash all foes.
So, in my mind, the best system is the one that maximizes your fun. Some people get a lot of fun out of putting the long effort into a really great roll. As for point-buy in IWDEE, I'm fine with it as an option if Beamdog could implement it without a great deal of effort, but I'd rather leave the original system as is by default. If you really wanted a point buy system, complete with stat points added on later level ups, you could borrow one of the systems out there in pen and paper and use an editor to modify your character accordingly.
I suppose I would have no problem with a character creation system that gave players in a CRPG the choice at the very start. Although given how easy it is to us EEKeeper, I see no reason why a point buy has any appeal at all. Any player can simply give themselves straight 14s or whatever they want. While randomly generated can only be randomly generated. Admittedly, as long as EEKeeper works, I can roll the dice myself and assign scores accordingly. But my beef remains, more recent CRPGs typically do not even allow this. Last I knew, DaleKeeper didn't even work on IWD2. And I know nothing about editing any other game.