Trap Detection

mahe4

Can someone please explain to me, how the trap detection mechanism works?
i always need to stand right in front of a trap, to be able to detect it.
this way it is pretty much worthless to train that skill, unless you already know where the traps are.
and wouldn't that defeat the purpose?
does the radius increase with the skill, or does the rate at which a find trap roll is rolled increase somehow?
at it's current state this skill is only for deactivating traps, not for finding them.
and i could just summon something or prepare to activate the trap instead of using the find trap skill.
would safe a lot skill points in the beginning.
if i could at least use stealth and find traps at the same time, to use a thief as a scout, that can deactivate all traps beforehand.
but that is also not possible.
maybe i missed something, can someone please explain this to me?

stygga

Find traps is rolled once per round, just like true sight and turn undead. Your character makes a check to actively look for checks once every six seconds (once per round) and if his skill is high enough he will detect anything in the abilities range (not sure what the range is though). Some summons can not trigger a trap, and some traps (very few) do not disappear once triggered - can be triggered multiple times. Hiding in shadows and looking for traps unfortunately can't be done at the same time. However, you can cast invisibility on your thief and look for traps that way. A work around, however not a perfect one. Hope that helps.

Merina

To use Find Traps effectively, you either need to wait a few seconds, then move a few steps, wait a bit, then move a few steps, wait a bit, and so on. That way you will find also traps that are located further away from you.

mahe4

ok thanks, it is as i thought.
so either i go through a dungeon with baby steps, or i trigger traps.
pretty annoying.
is there something planned to improve that mechanic?
at least one of the three things should happen:
1.the radius for the detection should be improved
2.the frequency at which the rolls are made should increase (more often then once in 6 seconds)
3.make stealth and find traps possible at the same time, without the help of a mage.

i hope they do something about that. in it's current state i just walk and trigger all the traps, and if one of the traps was too much, i load and deactivate the exact trap, because i know where it is...
but that pretty much beats the purpose of the skill.

or maybe is there a mod, that improves this mechanic?

FinneousPJ

It's a bad mechanic I agree.

Merina

The range at which traps are found is not that bad. And it detects multiple traps at once. You don't need to fear traps everywhere. Activate the skill at key places of a dungeon, before entering rooms, then once more after entering a room, before touching chests.

If the skill found traps at a much bigger range, where would be the thrill?

Of course, you do need to be careful when entering unknown territory, such as a dungeon.

It's a hell of a fun, if you run into a trap just because you are not careful enough. It's also entertaining when you turn off the AI to prevent your party from running towards enemies and into already detected traps.

Much about the game is about learning while playing the first time, then doing better at a later playthrough. The same can be said about dialogues in the game, letters, scrolls, journal entries, which you need to read carefully to spot the hints.

mahe4

Merina said:

The range at which traps are found is not that bad. And it detects multiple traps at once. You don't need to fear traps everywhere. Activate the skill at key places of a dungeon, before entering rooms, then once more after entering a room, before touching chests.

If the skill found traps at a much bigger range, where would be the thrill?

Of course, you do need to be careful when entering unknown territory, such as a dungeon.

It's a hell of a fun, if you run into a trap just because you are not careful enough. It's also entertaining when you turn off the AI to prevent your party from running towards enemies and into already detected traps.

Much about the game is about learning while playing the first time, then doing better at a later playthrough. The same can be said about dialogues in the game, letters, scrolls, journal entries, which you need to read carefully to spot the hints.

it may be entertaining for you, to to wait every 6 seconds, just to go another 2 steps in a dungeon.
i find it pretty frustrating and not entertaining at all.

Much about the game is about learning while playing the first time, then doing better at a later playthrough.

so in other words, when you already know where the traps are...

taking two steps and then waiting another 6 seconds is much to slow for me, and i don't want to wait half of the time in one spot, just that the system can take another roll at detecting traps...

a better system (for me) would be, if you enter the map, and the system already rolls a trap detection for every trap on the map.
and as soon as you are in line of sight, and the previous detection roll was successfull you see the trap.

there are many better ways to do this...
maybe i should over encumber every party char, to walk slower in dungeons... atleast then i don't have to stop every two steps.

Merina

It is not required to spend soooo much time waiting, because the time ticks already when moving. You only need to move a little bit more carefully. If you're paranoid about traps, you would also cast invisibility or use invisibility potions more often than not instead of only storing them in the potion case -- then you can disarm traps with your party staying in the distance.

Rest assured, if you rush through a dungeon without any caution, you also miss secret doors, and you run into enemies you cannot handle. Sometimes it may be necessary to flee, but sometimes they follow you. Much also depends on whether you want to role-play your party -- including resurrecting killed ones! -- and choosing answers/options without saving/retrying. What do you do if your familiar gets killed? Do you reload? What do you do if you get denied a reward or item? Games like these base a lot on trying again, doing better, choosing different strategies and answers, getting in love with a different character.

If you only aim at speed, it will be less entertaining. You could also turn off the in-game music, listen to your own one, kill the atmosphere.

Knowing which dungeons are trapped can be helpful. In the same way you may want to know which enchanted weapons you can find till the end, or whether entering tombs will free a Beholder or Lich that's too strong for you. Once you know, you will take your time to visit that place again.

You want the 100% safe route without any effort from yourself. Some traps can be found, but not disarmed if the skill is not high enough. If you found all traps upon entering a room, you would still need to move slowly and carefully to disarm them, without boots of speed, perhaps being invisible and with your party in the distance. Little benefit.

mahe4

Merina said:

It is not required to spend soooo much time waiting, because the time ticks already when moving. You only need to move a little bit more carefully. If you're paranoid about traps, you would also cast invisibility or use invisibility potions more often than not instead of only storing them in the potion case -- then you can disarm traps with your party staying in the distance.

Rest assured, if you rush through a dungeon without any caution, you also miss secret doors, and you run into enemies you cannot handle. Sometimes it may be necessary to flee, but sometimes they follow you. Much also depends on whether you want to role-play your party -- including resurrecting killed ones! -- and choosing answers/options without saving/retrying. What do you do if your familiar gets killed? Do you reload? What do you do if you get denied a reward or item? Games like these base a lot on trying again, doing better, choosing different strategies and answers, getting in love with a different character.

If you only aim at speed, it will be less entertaining. You could also turn off the in-game music, listen to your own one, kill the atmosphere.

Knowing which dungeons are trapped can be helpful. In the same way you may want to know which enchanted weapons you can find till the end, or whether entering tombs will free a Beholder or Lich that's too strong for you. Once you know, you will take your time to visit that place again.

You want the 100% safe route without any effort from yourself. Some traps can be found, but not disarmed if the skill is not high enough. If you found all traps upon entering a room, you would still need to move slowly and carefully to disarm them, without boots of speed, perhaps being invisible and with your party in the distance. Little benefit.

i don't know, what your definition of "effort" is. but taking two steps and then wait, is not "effort" in my definition.
it would be effort, if i have to think about, a strategy, or having some kind of thinking process involved.
but this way it is just time consumin, and nothing else.
absolutly no effort with this mechanic.

they could just slow the movement speed of the whole party while trap find is on, and it would be the same amount of effort.

and what is the problem of reloading?
is it called cheating in these forums, if i reload the game, if something bad happened, that i don't want?

Merina

Effort = "thinking first and handling accordingly". Let's take Cloakwood Forest as an example. There's an early hint that you are to meet spiders in the area. Spider webs come to mind at that point, so obviously you need to move carefully and position your fighters intelligently, or else a single web will hold them all. The increased effort here is that you cannot run through the forest without the risk of getting ambushed by spiders and web traps.

Klorox

It can be an annoying thing to wait while your thief looks for traps, but it's a very AD&D thing.

DreadKhan

Where are you getting this 2 steps thing?? Range isnt super short, and put the 'autopause when trap found' option on.

elminster

You can also give your thief the "thief controlled" script and set it so that they are constantly looking for traps. If you've got 100 points in Find Traps, "thief controlled" active, and "auto-pause trap found" active it should make things a bit easier.

Merina

Maybe "a bit easier" for traps ... but if the thief isn't careful enough and gets encountered by kobold commandos at the next corner, that can lead to sudden life-threatening damage in BGEE, too. Simply running through dungeons isn't a brilliant idea.

elminster

Then cast "Invisibility" on him/her. Problem solved.

mahe4

to whomever said, that the radius for detecting isn't THAT small:
no detection of the trap:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=337111532
still no detection of the trap:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=337111554
finally detection:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=337111576

you have to be really fucking close to detect a trap, which means, that my two step example is pretty straight forward.
two steps, wait a round, two steps, wait a round.
in other words, just an anoying mechanic, thats all.

Shin

If you don't want the hassle you can use Ctrl+4 to highlight traps (and all other interaction-sensitive elements) - this will show you where all traps are so you can position your thief accordingly to "detect" and disarm them without having to inch along.

mahe4

Shin said:

If you don't want the hassle you can use Ctrl+4 to highlight traps (and all other interaction-sensitive elements) - this will show you where all traps are so you can position your thief accordingly to "detect" and disarm them without having to inch along.

so your solution is to cheat, instead of changing the trap detecting mechanic?
okay...

Shin

The mechanic is hardcoded and at this point exceedingly unlikely to be changed - just giving you a tip how you can handle it if you find it a drag rather than fun.

mahe4

Shin said:

The mechanic is hardcoded and at this point exceedingly unlikely to be changed - just giving you a tip how you can handle it if you find it a drag rather than fun.

even the detection radius is hardcoded?
thats unfortunate...

smeagolheart

I believe the detection radius is definitely affected by field of view. Like you won't detect any traps around a corner even if it is right around a corner. Just like if there is a guy hiding there and you can't see him, you won't know he's there.

Belanos

mahe4 said:

ok thanks, it is as i thought.
so either i go through a dungeon with baby steps, or i trigger traps.
pretty annoying.

But realistic. Traps aren't likely to be easily noticed, whoever planted them are going to make them as hard to discover as possible. So if a Thief is moving along examining his/her surroundings very carefully, that's going to take some time.

smeagolheart said:

I believe the detection radius is definitely affected by field of view.

Exactly. You're never going to be able to detect a trap that you can't even see.

Merina said:

Activate the skill at key places of a dungeon, before entering rooms, then once more after entering a room, before touching chests.

Or set up a script that activates the skill automatically. Unlike 3rd rules, there's no movement penalty for having Find Traps on. So your Thief can be constantly looking for them, unless it's engaged in combat or doing something like picking locks etc.

mahe4

Belanos said:

But realistic. Traps aren't likely to be easily noticed, whoever planted them are going to make them as hard to discover as possible. So if a Thief is moving along examining his/her surroundings very carefully, that's going to take some time.

okay i get that, but then there should be an option for the whole group to walk slowly enough, so that the thief has time to find those traps.
the way it is right now is just annoying, that is all.

Belanos

mahe4 said:

okay i get that, but then there should be an option for the whole group to walk slowly enough, so that the thief has time to find those traps.

But there is. You just move your party forward a short distance, wait a few seconds, and if it looks like the ground is clear of traps move forward a short distance again. It's during the waiting period that the Thief is mainly checking the area for traps, not during the movement phase. If your party is stopped while the Thief is checking for traps, there's no risk of them stumbling over one at the last second, when it's too late to do anything about it.

mahe4

Belanos said:

mahe4 said:

okay i get that, but then there should be an option for the whole group to walk slowly enough, so that the thief has time to find those traps.

But there is. You just move your party forward a short distance, wait a few seconds, and if it looks like the ground is clear of traps move forward a short distance again. It's during the waiting period that the Thief is mainly checking the area for traps, not during the movement phase. If your party is stopped while the Thief is checking for traps, there's no risk of them stumbling over one at the last second, when it's too late to do anything about it.

well then there should be some kind of radius, that shows me, where the thief checks for traps, and some kind of hint, when exactly the find traps roll is made.
otherwise it is just lucky guessing.

Belanos

mahe4 said:

well then there should be some kind of radius, that shows me, where the thief checks for traps,

Again, there is. Anything within visual range. You can't expect a Thief to be able to detect a trap he/she can't even see. So stop, wait a short while, then move your party to the edge of what was visible before. Then repeat the process. As for the timing, you'll figure that out as you get used to working with your Thief, there's really no need to have a game mechanism to do it for you. A big part of D&D is people figuring things out for themselves. You can't expect the game to hold your hand all the way through it.

mahe4

Belanos said:

mahe4 said:

well then there should be some kind of radius, that shows me, where the thief checks for traps,

Again, there is. Anything within visual range. You can't expect a Thief to be able to detect a trap he/she can't even see. So stop, wait a short while, then move your party to the edge of what was visible before. Then repeat the process. As for the timing, you'll figure that out as you get used to working with your Thief, there's really no need to have a game mechanism to do it for you. A big part of D&D is people figuring things out for themselves. You can't expect the game to hold your hand all the way through it.

maybe you didn't see my screenshots. they definitly show, that is NOT visual range.
i waited at least 10 secondes between every three of those...

Belanos

mahe4 said:

maybe you didn't see my screenshots. they definitly show, that is NOT visual range.
i waited at least 10 secondes between every three of those...

You skill level may have been just on the border for that trap, and it took the game awhile to decide it was going to throw you a bone. I've certainly had traps appear a lot further away than that.

mahe4

Belanos said:

mahe4 said:

maybe you didn't see my screenshots. they definitly show, that is NOT visual range.
i waited at least 10 secondes between every three of those...

You skill level may have been just on the border for that trap, and it took the game awhile to decide it was going to throw you a bone. I've certainly had traps appear a lot further away than that.

i just looked it up again, just to be sure.
the trap skill was 100 at this moment...
did something change, that you now nee more than 100 to detect all traps?

The_Potty_1

I always give my thieves the old Thief (scout) script, which in EE corresponds to Thief0 and toggle the setting to hide in shadows instead of search for traps. This makes my thief (rangers too) automatically try to sneak every round. If they succeed, you can click find traps, and they will search for traps for the rest of the round, while hidden. You can even remove traps while remaining invisible.

Belanos

OK, maybe I was wrong about the visibility range. Still, you can't expect that something that has been purposely hidden to be easy to find. That's the whole point of traps. Yes you're going to miss a few, but for the most part they're not going to kill anyone, just damage them. Sometimes a lot. Getting your thieves to detect them is something your just going to have to get used to. Once you get a handle on it, it's not that big of a deal. Quite often you can predict where a trap might be, if you stop and think about it. And you don't go rushing through an unfamiliar area, you take your time. That's just logical to me.