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Trap Detection

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Comments

  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    Belanos said:

    OK, maybe I was wrong about the visibility range. Still, you can't expect that something that has been purposely hidden to be easy to find. That's the whole point of traps. Yes you're going to miss a few, but for the most part they're not going to kill anyone, just damage them. Sometimes a lot. Getting your thieves to detect them is something your just going to have to get used to. Once you get a handle on it, it's not that big of a deal. Quite often you can predict where a trap might be, if you stop and think about it. And you don't go rushing through an unfamiliar area, you take your time. That's just logical to me.

    which gets me to another point.
    my thiefs are normally in the back rows, which means often when i predict, there could be a trap around the corner, they don't get in the line of sight of the trap, because there is always some kind of obstacle in the way.
    in narrow hallways it is alwas like this.
    i have my whole party selected, click somewhere, where the circles would be in the line of sight, where i expect the trap to be, and the thief always gets stuck somewhere.
    maybe i'm just used to the neverwinter nights trap detection mechanism, where you didn't need so much micro management, just to search for traps...

  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968
    mahe4 said:


    i have my whole party selected, click somewhere, where the circles would be in the line of sight, where i expect the trap to be, and the thief always gets stuck somewhere.

    Then move your thief on it's own in those cases, ahead of the rest of the party, to search for traps. Granted that the pathfinding in these games leaves a lot to be desired, but if you're just moving one character you're not going to have too many issues.

    ThacoBellRAM021
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    Belanos said:

    mahe4 said:


    i have my whole party selected, click somewhere, where the circles would be in the line of sight, where i expect the trap to be, and the thief always gets stuck somewhere.

    Then move your thief on it's own in those cases, ahead of the rest of the party, to search for traps. Granted that the pathfinding in these games leaves a lot to be desired, but if you're just moving one character you're not going to have too many issues.

    and this is the point, where the issue of trapfinding escalates in major micromanagement.
    it is not my kind of fun, to take my thief, and explore the whole dungeon, and then get to move the rest of the party.
    that was the major reason, why i tried a solo playthrough before i even finished the game normally.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    If the trap mechanic annoys you that much, just install the "no traps" component of BG2 Tweaks.

    http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/cheats.php

    JuliusBorisovelminster
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    mahe4 said:


    which gets me to another point.
    my thiefs are normally in the back rows, which means often when i predict, there could be a trap around the corner, they don't get in the line of sight of the trap, because there is always some kind of obstacle in the way.

    Just a suggestion, you may wish to start having your thief scout out the area WELL ahead of your main party. If he/she is hidden, you can see enemy combatants before they see you and thus adequately prepare for them. Range of sight will mean that you can scout pretty large areas merely by clearing out the Fog of war. If you see something worth checking out, explore further. Believe me, this will help you out a BUNCH later on.

    Also, when you get to BG2, there are some traps that will insta-kill you if you blunder into them. One such trap will insta-kill the summoner if they send in a summonable. Now, this particular trap is easily enough avoidable, but if you go exploring and don't see the trap, hey-presto---- yer dead.

    But back on point, it is usually pretty obvious where to find traps and where to look for them. If you are in dark, dank surroundings, be on guard. If you are out in the open? Not so much... unless there are creatures around that are known for setting traps... trying to be non-spoilerish. I admit it can sometimes be a pain to have to crawl, but you definitely get used to it.

    Also, there is a cleric spell that will help you find traps and I believe it has a wider range, though still only fires every 6 seconds.

  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60

    mahe4 said:


    which gets me to another point.
    my thiefs are normally in the back rows, which means often when i predict, there could be a trap around the corner, they don't get in the line of sight of the trap, because there is always some kind of obstacle in the way.

    Just a suggestion, you may wish to start having your thief scout out the area WELL ahead of your main party. If he/she is hidden, you can see enemy combatants before they see you and thus adequately prepare for them. Range of sight will mean that you can scout pretty large areas merely by clearing out the Fog of war. If you see something worth checking out, explore further. Believe me, this will help you out a BUNCH later on.

    Also, when you get to BG2, there are some traps that will insta-kill you if you blunder into them. One such trap will insta-kill the summoner if they send in a summonable. Now, this particular trap is easily enough avoidable, but if you go exploring and don't see the trap, hey-presto---- yer dead.

    But back on point, it is usually pretty obvious where to find traps and where to look for them. If you are in dark, dank surroundings, be on guard. If you are out in the open? Not so much... unless there are creatures around that are known for setting traps... trying to be non-spoilerish. I admit it can sometimes be a pain to have to crawl, but you definitely get used to it.

    Also, there is a cleric spell that will help you find traps and I believe it has a wider range, though still only fires every 6 seconds.
    at this point i would even do it that way.
    taking my thief.
    stealth her/him.
    and then scout the area.
    but too bad you can't search for traps and sneak at the same time...

    vonhizzle
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    mahe4 said:


    but too bad you can't search for traps and sneak at the same time...

    Well, you can. Technically.

    Have your wizard cast invisibility on your thief, or likewise use a potion of invisibility or the ring of same. then you can stalk around with impunity and detect traps.

    Another way you can do it is to play a cleric/thief and have them cast sanctuary on themselves. Then they can go anywhere and detect traps.

    A third way is to have your cleric cast 'detect traps' and walk a few paces behind the thief. 'Detect Traps' spell actually has quite a range on it, so your thief won't accidentally step on a trap before the cleric detects it.

    A fourth way, though it is a bit if a house of cards, when you are hidden, you can switch over to finding traps and for a short time you will remain hidden. It is dicey that way though because it is dependent upon your ability to continue to hide in shadows every few seconds.

    But as a general rule, if you are close enough to see the enemy, you would have already seen the trap in front of them. Then you just draw them to you and you avoid any traps in the vicinity.

    leeux
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,781
    edited November 2014
    The find traps spell is great. I cast it in dungeons when in narrow passageways because it goes a bit farther than the thief skill and it detects at 100%. I pretty much only use the thieving variant when I find chests. You do need to boost the thief skill to disable traps still though.

  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60


    A third way is to have your cleric cast 'detect traps' and walk a few paces behind the thief. 'Detect Traps' spell actually has quite a range on it, so your thief won't accidentally step on a trap before the cleric detects it.

    i haven't tried this one yet, thanks!

  • dreamriderdreamrider Member Posts: 417
    Clearly you have never played AD&D PnP. Searching for traps all the time, without applying some player logic to whether there ARE likely to be any traps in the current area of the map, WILL slow you way down...as it should.

    Next time you go in an understanding friends room, or your basement, try miming a check for tripwires in every walkway 8' wide or less, every time you pass a stack of stuff or a corner, and carefully run your finger tips around every door or drawer before you open it. It may take you awhile to get across the room.

    As to detection radius, I believe it is either 15 or 20 feet, and in line of sight. In areas I suspect may harbor traps, I normally move the party about half the visual radius, then pause for a few seconds, then move on. I usually have the best detecting thief in the position right behind the leader, in the staggered column formation. I keep Thief script set to one that defaults to detecting traps when not in combat or some other player directed action.

    I rarely have a problem with missed traps...and no, I don't have them all memorized.

    Another advantage of this form of progress in unknown areas is that you are more likely to trigger clusters of lurking monsters one at a time, so you can shoot them down before advancing slightly to deal with their pals.

    RAM021
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    edited November 2014

    Clearly you have never played AD&D PnP. Searching for traps all the time, without applying some player logic to whether there ARE likely to be any traps in the current area of the map, WILL slow you way down...as it should.

    Next time you go in an understanding friends room, or your basement, try miming a check for tripwires in every walkway 8' wide or less, every time you pass a stack of stuff or a corner, and carefully run your finger tips around every door or drawer before you open it. It may take you awhile to get across the room.

    As to detection radius, I believe it is either 15 or 20 feet, and in line of sight. In areas I suspect may harbor traps, I normally move the party about half the visual radius, then pause for a few seconds, then move on. I usually have the best detecting thief in the position right behind the leader, in the staggered column formation. I keep Thief script set to one that defaults to detecting traps when not in combat or some other player directed action.

    I rarely have a problem with missed traps...and no, I don't have them all memorized.

    Another advantage of this form of progress in unknown areas is that you are more likely to trigger clusters of lurking monsters one at a time, so you can shoot them down before advancing slightly to deal with their pals.

    the comparison to PnP is a bit far fetched here. all you do there is saying, that you search for traps.
    you have no problems with line of sights, that could be a millimeter wrong, or with the pathfindig, that doesn't let your thief move on in narrow hallways, or with invisible detection radiuses.

    in other words, it isn't a game of micromanagement in a PnP game.
    in bg it is.

  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968
    mahe4 said:


    in other words, it isn't a game of micromanagement in a PnP game.
    in bg it is.

    Well the bottom line is if you really don't like it, don't play the game. The trap search system has been in place now for over 15 years and judging by the few people that are posting in this thread, there doesn't seem to be much of an incentive to change it. So either you adapt to how it works, as millions of player have done over the years, or you give up on the game. It's not a perfect system by any means, but due to the nature of the activity, there's not a lot of room for improvement other than coming up with some mechanism that simply holds your hand and makes the entire process meaningless. So you're going to need to adjust to it, not the other way around.

    dreamriderThacoBell
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    Belanos said:

    mahe4 said:


    in other words, it isn't a game of micromanagement in a PnP game.
    in bg it is.

    Well the bottom line is if you really don't like it, don't play the game. The trap search system has been in place now for over 15 years and judging by the few people that are posting in this thread, there doesn't seem to be much of an incentive to change it. So either you adapt to how it works, as millions of player have done over the years, or you give up on the game. It's not a perfect system by any means, but due to the nature of the activity, there's not a lot of room for improvement other than coming up with some mechanism that simply holds your hand and makes the entire process meaningless. So you're going to need to adjust to it, not the other way around.

    OR
    if it is true, that the detection radius of the spell is larger than the one of find traps ability, they could just increase the radius.
    that alone would be a big improvement.

    RAM021
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    edited November 2014
    mahe4 said:

    the comparison to PnP is a bit far fetched here. all you do there is saying, that you search for traps.
    you have no problems with line of sights, that could be a millimeter wrong, or with the pathfindig, that doesn't let your thief move on in narrow hallways, or with invisible detection radiuses.

    in other words, it isn't a game of micromanagement in a PnP game.
    in bg it is.

    This isn't quite true. It really depends on who your DM is I guess though. And the fact that this is a translation between PnP and the video game world.

    In truth, your progression SHOULD be slowed as you search for traps, at least according to the 2E rules. You may not necessarily see it because the 'Real time' advancement of the game is soaked up by the narrative of the DM, but it is as it should be, i.e. you move slower through an area if you are checking for traps.

    But I really think this is getting blown way out of proportion. When I play, I've developed rules for when traps are likely. They go like this:

    If it is a high traffic area such as a road or town, you probably won't see traps so don't bother looking for them. Likewise, open forest generally don't have a lot of traps. The exception to the open forest only occurs when there are monsters in the area that are likely to spring such traps. Hit one of these areas and I guarantee it will make sense, once you see the monsters that are there, that you start looking for traps. And if you don't want to metagame, simply don't look UNTIL you spring your first trap. Then start looking for more. It's as simple as that.

    Dungeons on the other hand? Check every corridor and in every room. Not all of them have traps, but the ones you encounter? You will be happy you did look. If you see an empty room in a dungeon, SEARCH HARDER. If you see a blind corridor. SEARCH HARDER. The game rarely leaves blind alleys without something going on. And if it looks like a choke point, that you HAVE to travel? SEARCH HARDER. It should be noted as was stated above, that you should be on higher alert in these areas ANYWAY because you don't want to bring all of the baddies down on your head at once.

    Finally, any chests or other containers should always be checked before opening. This is usually done after combat is over, so no big deal, and it flows organically that you would want to do that.

    Keeping to this simple set of rules and you will catch 90% or more of the traps and won't spend an unusually large amount of wasted time looking.

    As for the radius, my personal experience is that the thief detecting traps usually sees the trap LONG before they get close. It is true that the spell is even longer, but the difference is quite minor. While it is true that a very few traps won't get detected until you are on top of them, I strongly suspect that these only occur when you missed the first detection roll, not because of a shorter range. If you have a higher Find/Remove traps skill, you will catch more of the traps at greater distance. The spell automatically finds them and so that is probably why it seems like it has a MUCH longer range.

    EDITED: to clarify a few points.

    RAM021
  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968


    Keeping to this simple set of rules and you will catch 90% or more of the traps and won't spend an unusually large amount of wasted time looking.

    Yes, if you stop and think about it you can get fairly good at predicting where a trap will be. The key to it all is not to rush blindly ahead with your characters. Take your time as you're going through an area. I've been playing IWD recently, and it's been so long since I last played it that I don't remember anything about the areas. Yet I'm rarely being caught by surprise when it comes to traps. There's the odd one that catches me off guard, and there's some that are set up so that there's nothing you can do about them anyway, but my thief is catching the vast majority of them simply because of the way I move through an area. With baby steps basically, and lots of pauses near where it seems likely a trap will be located.

    the_spyderThacoBell
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @Belanos - exactly. The test isn't to catch every single trap. If that is your goal, read the walkthroughs and be done with it. But intelligent application of when to look and why will keep away the vast majority of trap damage. That's all anyone can hope for.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,899
    The fact that you are now walking faster than you did in the original BG1 probably hasn't helped when it comes to detecting traps. Though at least at this point you won't click on one (to disarm it) and have your thief run over it anyways. At least I haven't found that to be an issue anymore.

    leeuxRAM021
  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968
    One thing to keep in mind. If you encounter a trap in an area, expect more of them. It's very rare that you'll only have a single trap, chances are there will be more of them. So be on the lookout if you happen on one that catches you by surprise. Also, not every trap can be detected and dealt with. The skill only works on small traps like snares and trapped containers etc.. There's nothing that can be done with large mechanical traps. That's just part of 2nd Edition D&D rules. You won't find many in the BG games, if any at all, but there are a few in IWD.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @elminster - I always have auto-pause set so that it pauses upon spotting a trap. That 'usually' stops anyone from that 'yep, that WAS a trap' moment.

    elminsterRAM021
  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    I've always found this mechanics annoying, too. Hence, this mod.
    (Inspired by and borrowed from the work by Ardanis)

  • crymoricuscrymoricus Member Posts: 4
    This is why I love playing Shadowdancer/whatever (usually mage). It does suck that you really shouldn't dual until 11 because you need to have natural 200 average between HiS/MS, and at least a natural 75 in DT, but I think it's worth it to have that one guy who can TRULY scout. Run into enemies while detecting traps? You're a Shadowdancer -- even True Sight can't stop you from hitting the reset button and heading back to the team.

    So long as a Shadowdancer has the skill to reliably hide and reliably detect traps, there's no better scout in the game (which is kind of unfair to pure thieves, isn't it?). Tack on Knock spell as Shadowdancer/Mage and you have the perfect spellslinging sneak. All that's lacking in pickpocket (meh).

    RAM021
  • AaezilAaezil Member Posts: 157
    So you want to take the danger away? Booby traps are supposed to be well hidden and surprise you...

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 231
    Traps tend to be a love/hate thing with players. On the one hand, it's supposed to encourage caution and give players the thrill of going "Aha! Thought you could get me with that trap, did ya?" when you outsmart the trapper (or vice versa, if you're the DM ;) ). But on the other hand, I can definitely understand why it would not appeal to certain types of players if they prefer a more visceral "kick down the door and kill everything!" approach to dungeoneering. Neither way is wrong, it's just different strokes for different folks.

  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 424
    I love playing thieves, and I quite like running smaller parties or soloing, and backstabbing is just about my favorite activity in this game. There's a +3 katana in BG2 that makes backstabbing a positive joy.

    What this means for my playstyle is that I set my thief to automatically hide in shadows every round. When they succeed, they remain hidden for the rest of the round. Which means, after a successful sneak, you can click detect traps, and search for traps AND enemies for the rest of the round, while hidden. Auto-pause on enemy seen, if you see someone, you can judge how long it was since the start of the round, which is 6 seconds long. I generally retreat out of their sight, sneak again, detect traps for another round or two, then finally sneak, position myself behind their spellcaster, and blow them to smithereens. If I have a party, they would come in to mop up the pieces, if I'm soloing, hopefully I have boots of speed so I can run around a corner, rinse, and repeat.

    Perhaps we're making light of traps, because some of us bought the game 20 years ago (17 for me), and can remember where each and every trap is. In some ways I envy you seeing the game for the first time, but in terms of traps, nope, I'll take my pre-cognition.

    RAM021GusindaBlack_Elk
  • Black_ElkBlack_Elk Member Posts: 18
    edited July 15
    Main issue with traps in BG is that they are in static locations, so you will invariably meta game it over time. Just the nature of the beast, since its hard to forget once you've been flamestriked or zapped by lightning a couple times. Even with like a decade between playthroughs, I find my spider senses going off in particular corridors or certain rooms even when I should probably have forgotten about them by now. Not because of the characters skill points, but because of the player's point and click muscle memory. Obviously the same goes for every other encounter or static loot situation, but something about knowing where the traps are in advance kind of diminishes the whole thief/scout experience.

    On the one hand you want your scout to be quick, especially if you are scouting the area in advance of the party (even more esp when, as many suggested, you use a mage to make the thief invisible and tour the zone solo) but then you end up with that running baby steps situation as a trade off. So yeah, not a particularly engaging dynamic. But even a few randomized traps scattered throughout the game would really help with that I think. So the player is rewarded for taking it slow, even in familiar dungeons, or at least in the main trap-heavy mines/dungeons.

    Another feature that would help would just be a way to toggle between the character/party's movement speed from fast to slow, depending on whether you're in a crawling scenario or a run across town scenario. I definitely agree though, its a lot of micromanagement unless you really commit to solo scouting while invisible with your thief. For as useful as they are, they should probably never have included the boots of speed as equipment in these games. Once you pick up the pace its almost impossible to go back, even when it trashes the pathfinding.

    Probably a lot of people, even the ones with nostalgia for BG1 movement speeds, would have a hard time going back to it once you are all acclimated to darting around in BG2, or with boots of the cheetah on your scouts or by constantly hasting everyone. Walking isn't really rewarded the way it was in say NWN, or in some RP enforced scenarios where running all the time was bad form. But for the sneaks it would be cool if you could toggle movement speed to actually slow down consistantly instead of trying to simulate that with the click click click run stop run stop.

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