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Inquisitor Paladin vs. Priest of Helm??

I want to do a BG:EE (and maybe continue to BG2:EE) with a character that dislikes evil magic users. I want him to be a kind, enlightened individual. I feel as though the Inquisitor sort of fits this ideal, however there is one glaring issue for me... they seem somewhat boring. Not enough micro-management, too much "mindless hack n' slash". To that end, I supposed that a Priest of Helm Cleric may be the answer. I can easily roleplay the wisdom/enlightened aspect of the character using a Cleric, and they have more "to do" with all the priest spells available. Plus, with the True Sight still available with the Priest of Helm kit, it seems like a good fit.

So I guess I have a few questions:
(1) Is an Inquisitor boring to play (especially after losing so many of the default Paladin abilities)?
(2) Is the Priest of Helm powerful enough? I see people saying that single-class clerics are very underwhelming once you move into BG2.

Thanks!!
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Comments

  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    1. Inquisitor plays very much like a figher type class. You are good in combat, can tank and hack and slash with the best of them, and much like most fighter types (barbarian rage, berserking, whirlwind attack etc.) you have some abilities you can throw down once in a while. The Inquisitor is a very strong kit in BG2 and will make many of the challeneges not so challenging afterall... if you find fighter type characters (ones that use an ability every once in a while but mostly wade into the the fray) boring than the Inquisitor might not be for you.

    2. Clerics are very good in BG1, silence makes many challenging fights a joke, and their self buffs can make them compete with other frontliners. Clerics can't reliably fill the frontliner role in BG2. Stuck at 1 APR base they are quickly overshadowed by other melee characters. In order to make a single class cleric work in BG2 you need to focus more on casting spells. Don't look at them as "warrior priests" and think of them more as buffing mages. Use their rounds in combat buffing your allies, debuffing your foes, and dealing what damage they can. Cleric's are alright, and I personally hate going through either game without one, but their usefullness does drop off the further you get into the games. I'd personally play a Fighter/Cleric multi or Fighter - > Cleric dual class, best of both worlds.

    In the end it really comes down to personal preference.
    JuliusBorisov
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    Thanks. Yes, I generally find Fighters pretty boring to play... just not enough going on. My vision is to play this character as one who is fine with benevolent magic, or magic used responsibly -- and as such is happy to use magic for his own purposes.

    For a Fighter --> Cleric dual... what is the best course of action? At what level is the best to dual into Cleric?
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    edited September 2014
    Depends on when you mind dualing. I believe you get an extra 1/2 attack at fighter 7 (this is the only level you can dual, get an extra 1/2 attack and still regain the use of your fighter abilities before the end of BG1), and again at fighter 13. If you wait until fighter 13, you need to level your cleric class up to 14 before you get your fighter proficiencies and attacks back, you'll be a good ways into Shadows of Amn before you truly gain the benefits of the Fighter->Cleric dual but you'll be the strongest version of that dual once you do.

    If you plan to Dual class just remember that as a fighter->cleric dual class you are restricted to using weapons that a cleric can use, so if you put proficiency points into Bastard Sword, for example, those points will be useless once you dual to cleric. Good weapon options are flails (flail of ages is astoundingly good) and Warhammers. I'd also suggest selecting Two Weapon Proficiency.
    JuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Clerics played aggressively are about the best low level characters period. They do get eclipsed by arcane casters pretty badly towards the XP cap for BG1, but they can still be pretty effective.

    One idea you might consider is a bit weird, but you could dual to fighter with a Cleric of Lathander. Priest HLA are pretty underwhelming imho, and really, you will have a veritable mountain of spells if you took 18 wis (end up at 23 or 24 iirc) for buffing. Then again, it'll take awhile to get your abilities back, but you would be an excellent clericy fighter. Lathander is very actively anti-evil, so it fits good with your theme.

    A FC multi is a great tank, try dwarf maybe. Saving throws will be epic!
    DraekinJuliusBorisovthe_spyder
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Indeed, Fighter/Cleric multi is awesome and probably my favorite class. You can fight and cast right from the get-go and you get both Fighter and Cleric HLAs. Dwarf is a solid choice but you wont be able to romance anyone besides Neera or Dorn (and I doubt you'll romance Dorn since he is evil.) The shorty's get saving throw bonuses based on their Constitution scores so you could also be a Gnome (and romance Aerie) and still benefit. Gnomes can only have a max wisdom of 17 but with the three tomes of wisdom in BG1 it doesn't really matter all that much. If you want to be spoiled for choice for romances (provided you want a romance at all) Half-Elf can romance anyone.
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    I realize that Fighter/Cleric is probably pretty powerful, but I tend to gravitate toward single classes. I just don't care for dual or multi for my protagonist.

    Can anyone tell me why single-class Clerics get so bad compared to arcane casters? They have different utility, and they can also wade into battle much better than their robe-wearing counterparts. Is that just not very useful at some point?

    Also, I'm not worried about being the most overpowered class available, but being the protagonist and party leader, I feel that I should at least be a powerful character, and not feel 2nd rate in my own party.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    It's more that Arcane magic users become really really powerful rather than clerics not being powerful. Arcane magic get 8th and 9th levels spells whereas clerical magic stops at level 7.
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    Was it simply a design decision to not include any priest spells above level 7? That would seem odd...
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Arcane spells start getting more versatile and powerful. Ultimstely, pfmw trumps AC boosts, Imp Haste is a bigger buff than Clerics get, and Planetars sre head and shoulders above Deva. :s Clerics suck at damaging or shutting down groups, Mages get ADHW, Skulltrap, Imp Alacrity just ices the cake. Clerics cant compete at high level, but they are great at lower levels.

    You could try a pure Cleric of Lathander, you get a very strong selfbuff for it.
    Draekin
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    Can a pure Priest of Lathander still hold his own in melee in BG2? And, just to satisfy another curiosity, how well does a Paladin's spellcasting ability hold up in BG2? They don't get any cleric spells until level 9, but it seems like once they DO get them, they might be obsolete.....
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Paladin spells are better than whst rangers get. You will ptobably pick buffs like Armour of Faith, very nice 1st lvl spell, even with lower caster level. DUHM is powerful, etc.

    Cleric of Lathander is better in melee than many, due to an extra apr. At pretty high levels, you can probably buff up and just dualwield, giving 3 apr. If you use def of Eadthaven offhand, you wont hit often but will be crazy durable with AoF. I dont remember how haste interscts with the Lathander buff, might be worth checking.
    JuliusBorisov
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2014
    Priest of Lathander should be fine in BG2. Because its abilities and spells help it to hit more often it will require more micromanagement than say a fighter/cleric multiclass though.

    Well, Inquisitors don't have any spellcasting ability outside of their innate abilities. But paladins in general cast priest spells 8 levels lower than what a cleric would get for their level. So a level 13 paladin casts their spells as though they were a level 5 cleric. They really are more of a warrior than a caster. They can however use bladed weapons (Carsomyr is one example) and things like bows/crossbows, as well as a few items restricted to paladins.

    As for being obsolete, Armor of Faith (level 1 spell) is not going to start out being very strong for them but eventually it will be. Draw Upon Holy Might (level 2) is another good spell that will work well throughout bg2.
    DraekinJuliusBorisov
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Draekin said:

    Can a pure Priest of Lathander still hold his own in melee in BG2? And, just to satisfy another curiosity, how well does a Paladin's spellcasting ability hold up in BG2? They don't get any cleric spells until level 9, but it seems like once they DO get them, they might be obsolete.....

    They wont be great in melee. If you're looking to dish out damage with a melee weapon, being stuck at 1 attack per round is going to hurt you. If you're looking to tank, even a mage (with the right spells) or many other classes will outshine you. Clerics very much take a backseat at later levels when it comes to melee. You wont be great at it, you can do it, and with the right kit like Cleric of Lathander you'll be better than other Clerics, you're still not a true frontline character.
    Draekin
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2014
    You definitely won't do as much damage as a warrior and you won't have the health of one, but provided you have decent stats and are more willing to micromanage I wouldn't say you aren't a "true frontline character" at later levels (or even once you have access to Holy Power, DUHM, and Righteous Magic frankly).

    (to use a later example)
    At level 20

    Regeneration grants 18 health/round healing.
    Armor of Faith gives you up to 25% physical damage resistances (Defender of Easthaven can boost this up to 45%). At 25% that means you have to take over 24 damage/round before you'll take any net damage (over 32 with 45% resistance). That isn't counting any healing potions you use or even your ability to quickly cast Greater Restoration on yourself.

    You definitely won't have the attacks per round as a fighter. You can get 6 APR thanks to Improved Haste, 2 weapon style, and Boon of Lathander. Considering however that you'll have 25 strength regardless of what weapon you use your damage can actually be surprisingly good considering you aren't a warrior.

    Flail of Ages +3 = 8-13 damage +14 (strength) + 2.5 (average increase from casting Righteous Magic) + 1 (boon) = 25.5 - 30.5 damage/hit.

    4 APR with the flail = 28x4 or 112 damage/round

    Defender of Easthaven = 5-10 damage + 14 (strength) + 2.5 (righteous magic) + 1 (boon) = 22.5 - 27.5 damage/hit. 2 APR with it means about another 50 damage/round.

    You are much less likely to hit with your offhand weapon but even just the damage with your main weapon is far more than is necessary. Most enemies won't be able to survive for long if you are doing 100+damage/round to them.

    The other thing is that if you bring your character over from BGEE you'll likely start with 19 strength, so with that its pretty easy to get 25 strength provided you have access to level 5 spells.

    Holy Power (4th level spell) is a spell that will also give you the same thac0 progression as a fighter of your level. So while your Thac0 won't be as good as a fighters, and you will lack very useful fighter HLA's like Critical Strike, you can still be very effective as a melee character in the game.
    DraekinJuliusBorisovMerina
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    Sounds like Boon of Lathander is pretty key to being decent in melee as a cleric, which means Priest of Helm is probably not a good choice.

    Would there be any benefit to going Helm instead of Lathander?

    By the way, thank you to everyone who has replied and been so helpful.... amazing community.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2014
    Helm would get more APR and better Thac0 when using his Seeking Sword ability (just make sure you are dual wielding when you use the ability and you'll get more APR out of it). But on a per hit basis it wouldn't do the kind of damage that a priest of lathander could do (I have not done any overall damage calculations for them). It also blocks you from spellcasting, which makes it more of a hindrance in BG2.

    That said it is a much better kit in BGEE than lathander because (despite its description) its ability lasts for 60 seconds until level 11 (at which point it increases in duration by a round/level) and it gives +4 thac0 to hit. You basically can start out as a fighter with the kit. Better in fact if you dual wielding because you can have 4 APR leaving candlekeep without any penalties to your Thac0. The Boon of Lathander on the otherhand does only last for 1 round/level, so its starting duration is pretty short by comparison.
    JuliusBorisovDraekin
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    edited September 2014
    I decided to go Priest of Helm. Boon of Lathander is definitely nice, but for my flavor I prefer True Sight.... and the Seeking Sword will be nice for the first few levels of BG:EE at least. I just feel like Mages are so powerful in this game, that feeling like my character is a mage-beater is just too exciting. And while the Inquisitor is definitely better in that role, its overall utility, complexity, and party-friendliness seems much below that of the Cleric (plus the Cleric turns undead so much better).

    I also feel that a Cleric is the most essential character in D&D, even if most people would rather sling spells or whack things with huge swords. I love playing support classes... what can I say?

    Thank you everyone for your input and your help. Any other suggestions on some of the best ways to use my cleric to thwart enemy mages are welcome!!

    EDIT: I originally started playing the game as a Druid (Avenger), but just felt like I had so few good spells. I felt mostly underpowered, except for casting Web on every encounter and letting my party pick them off with bows.
    Post edited by Draekin on
    elminster
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    edited September 2014
    GoodSteve said:

    Draekin said:

    Can a pure Priest of Lathander still hold his own in melee in BG2? And, just to satisfy another curiosity, how well does a Paladin's spellcasting ability hold up in BG2? They don't get any cleric spells until level 9, but it seems like once they DO get them, they might be obsolete.....

    They wont be great in melee. If you're looking to dish out damage with a melee weapon, being stuck at 1 attack per round is going to hurt you. If you're looking to tank, even a mage (with the right spells) or many other classes will outshine you. Clerics very much take a backseat at later levels when it comes to melee. You wont be great at it, you can do it, and with the right kit like Cleric of Lathander you'll be better than other Clerics, you're still not a true frontline character.
    I honestly disagree. I think a high level Cleric of Lathander or Priest of of Helm are more than capable of being great melee character, especially in ToB where their melee buff will reach maximum potential. The lack of high level fighter abilities like whirlwind suck, but with things like Globes of Blade, Energy Blades, and improve haste around, I don't think the lack of those skills is a huge downside.

    Clerics are also decent tanks throughout the whole Baldur's Gate Saga thanks to some of their buffs and their ability to wear heavy armor and shields. They don't have Iron skins or stoneskin like Druids, FM, or blades, but the fighter classes don't get these spell either.
    Post edited by BobC on
    Merina
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Avengers are WAY less frustrating to play at low levels than other druids... chromatic orb isnt bad to have, Web is devestating, and Lightningbolt is a nasty trick in some circumstances. Chaos is an outright game changer though, and by 4th level spells, Druids are suddenly much more viable. The Shapeshifting is cool too actually,,especially with Web!

    But yeah, its not remotely a melee class until you can shapeshift.

    Clerics are good tanks, but not so hot damage dealers!
  • BobC said:

    I honestly disagree. I think a high level Cleric of Lathander or Priest of of Helm are more than capable of being great melee character, especially in ToB where their melee buff will reach maximum potential. The lack of high level fighter abilities like whirlwind suck, but with things like Globes of Blade, Energy Blades, and improve haste around, I don't think the lack of those skills is a huge downside.

    Clerics are also decent tanks throughout the whole Baldur's Gate Saga thanks to some of their buffs and their ability to wear heavy armor and shields. They don't have Iron skins or stoneskin like Druids, FM, or blades, but the fighter classes don't get these spell either.

    Sadly, by the time you have Globe of Blades, most enemies are more than capable of making the save for no damage, and Improved Haste doesn't have much of an impact when you only have one or two attacks a round. Energy Blades is fun, but it doesn't make you a melee character. Tanking also gets dicey at high levels, because AC can't keep up with enemy THAC0, and Clerics get neither the huge hp buffers nor the Hardiness HLA that warrior-types get (though Shield of Faith and the Defender of Easthaven can really help).

    I've slowly come to the opinion that the role of a high level cleric is to stand behind the warriors and cast buffs with the occasional attack spell at the right target. Unless you multiclass, in which case your options open up dramatically.
    GoodSteve
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Something to consider as far as the whole balance thing is concerned. In BG2, good clerics fairly wipe the floor with certain undead types. Considering how many of them are around, for reasons that it shouldn't be necessary to review, your Cleric will have a distinct advantage there. Just sayin.
    [Deleted User]
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98
    About the PoL: Does Boon of Lathander no longer self-stack in EE? I remember playing a completely ridiculous PoL(20ish) -> M(?) solo, abusing the self-stacking to get 10-ish APR, all the cleric buffs, all the mage buffs, 25 STR, etc.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2014

    About the PoL: Does Boon of Lathander no longer self-stack in EE? I remember playing a completely ridiculous PoL(20ish) -> M(?) solo, abusing the self-stacking to get 10-ish APR, all the cleric buffs, all the mage buffs, 25 STR, etc.

    Yea looks like it still stacks.
    JuliusBorisovRAM021
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    PoH is at level 5 currently, with Minsc, Dynaheir, Imoen (dual to mage), and Ajantis. I will pick up Coran when I get there. So far, I don't do a whole lot of damage bc of my crap THAC0, but I can tank like a boss. Plus I completely own any caster NPCs with silence, command (as an interrupt), and dispel. And I haven't even had to use a cast of True Sight yet. Loving it so far.... and being the team healer is an added bonus as well. I'm one of the weird few that loves playing healers.
    elminsterPhilhelm
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2014
    Like I said earlier if you are dual wielding (say maces though it won't matter) and activate Seeking Sword you now have 4 APR and you get +4 to your Thac0 (and you won't get any Thac0 penalties). You'll basically have a fighters amount of Thac0 (especially if you use Draw Upon Holy Might beforehand) but with the added benefit of extra APR. You can even use Sanctuary (level 1 spell) to scout out enemies before you get into any fights to know when it is good to use.
    DraekinJuliusBorisov
  • DraekinDraekin Member Posts: 40
    Elminster that is an awesome little trick. I've only tried it once, but got 4 apr at a VERY good THAC0. Best part is, I don't even need to really dual wield; just equip my main-hand in my off-hand and cast Seeking Sword.
    JuliusBorisovelminster
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    Draekin said:

    PoH is at level 5 currently, with Minsc, Dynaheir, Imoen (dual to mage), and Ajantis. I will pick up Coran when I get there. So far, I don't do a whole lot of damage bc of my crap THAC0, but I can tank like a boss.

    Pretty much any plate wearer in early game BG can tank. That's why I go seriously go "wtf" when people say Clerics can't tank at all, despite being viable tanks throughout the whole BG saga.

    Once you get holy power, you should have no problem hitting any enemy with Seeking Sword.
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    elminster said:

    Like I said earlier if you are dual wielding (say maces though it won't matter) and activate Seeking Sword you now have 4 APR and you get +4 to your Thac0 (and you won't get any Thac0 penalties). You'll basically have a fighters amount of Thac0 (especially if you use Draw Upon Holy Might beforehand) but with the added benefit of extra APR. You can even use Sanctuary (level 1 spell) to scout out enemies before you get into any fights to know when it is good to use.

    Is that a bug? It specifically says in the description that it does not confer an attack or damage bonus. It is only used in determining what it can hit. Not that I mind so much. I am playing one right now and never thought to look. Very fun class btw.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2014
    The extra APR is a bug yea (that has been around since the original bg2) but its a pretty minor one. Its just particularly handy for classes that shapechange or that can create weapons with magic.

    The Thac0 gain isn't a bug. Its intended (and at the very least the BGEE description for the ability mentions it).
    Post edited by elminster on
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    Perhaps I am interpreting it incorrectly, but here is the description:

    "The sword is considered a +4 weapon for purposes of determining what it can hit (but this bonus does not apply to attack or damage rolls)..."

    Again, I am fine with it the way it is and hesitant to bring it up lest it changes, but what it says is a bit misleading. The way I understand it is that it can hit Kangaxx, et al that are immune to +3 and below, but it does not provide a bonus to THACO (attack rolls).
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