Sword and Shield Style

Lemernis

Is there really any advantage to choosing Sword and Shield Style? I refer to the instruction at character creation that states "Note: despite the name of this style, any one-handed melee weapon in combination with a shield will receive the afore-mentioned bonuses." (The bonuses are: one pip confers -2 to AC vs. missiles; two pips confers -4 o AC vs. missiles.)

So it would only provide greater protection from missiles when using missiles in the main hand then? I.e., such as throwing daggers, darts, or a sling? Or throwing axes as well, I guess. Edit: Oops, I need to re-ask it this way: The only benefit then is to provide a bonus to AC vs. missiles for characters that are using missile weapons? I.e., such as one that is hurling darts, slinging bullets, or throwing daggers or axes?

Is it actually implemented this way?

elminster

You get the bonus if you have any weapon in your main hand while wielding a shield in your offhand. Your main hand weapon could be a sling, a scimitar, whatever.

Astafas

It's a minus to AC, not a minus to THAC0. If your AC with shield equipped is, let's say -5, one pip in S&S would give you -7 against all kind of missiles, such as arrows, bolts, darts etcetera.

Lemernis

Wait, sorry. I was overlooking above that they'll get the bonus anyway with a one-handed melee weapon equipped. So it's worthwhile only for a character intended to be using missile weapons to begin with? I.e., a character that does not have any profs in a melee weapon? (Again, because equipping with a melee weapon + shield will confer the same bonuses anyway, if I am reading it correctly.)

But then again there is -2 for one pip and -4 for two pips for the combat style... So just equipping a shield with a melee weapon for a character who doesn't have this fighting style I'm sure doesn't automatically confer -4 to AC versus missiles...

Is it that one pip in S&S is the same as any other character equipping a melee weapon and shield (without any profs in S&S), i.e., both get -2 to AC vs. missiles... But in order to get -4 to AC vs. missiles you have to invest in S&S to begin with and add the second pip?

elminster

Someone using missile weapons or a spellcasting bard or druid might get use out of it. But generally it isn't worth it since it only gives an AC bonus against missiles.

Lemernis

But for Fighters... and to illustrate, let's say one has Sword and Shield Style ++ and any melee weapon ++ to start...

If that character later chooses a prof in any of the one-handed missile weapons, that Fighter will then get -4 to tacked on to AC versus missiles when equipping that missile, right?

lunar

No you don't get the extra ac bonus vs missiles if you have a ranged weapon equipped. (A sling, dart, throwing dagger etc) At least this was how it worked back in bg2. You may try it in game and check character sheet for extra bonus vs missiles. If you equip a melee weapon+shield you will see the extra ac bonus at the bottom of your sheet. With a sling+shield you won't.

It is still worth it especially in bg1. With other anti missile items (girdle of piercing, boots of avoidance) you can get a very tough ac vs missiles which help a ton against Black Talon elites (cold arrow) elite hobgobs (poison arrow)and the dreaded kobold commandos (fire arrow)

Lemernis

I did just test it, and actually it is only with the melee weapon equipped that it confers -4 AC to missiles (whereas this bonus apparently disappears when equipping a melee weapon).

atcDave

Yeah the styles aren't supposed to do anything if you're using a missile.

Many feel the weapon and shield style is the most useless of the bunch.
But if you're going to fight with a shield ANYWAY, why not...

Lemernis

Okay, after a bit of testing in-game, best I can tell, the statement "Note: despite the name of this [Sword and Shield] style, any one-handed melee weapon in combination with a shield will receive the afore-mentioned bonuses" is incorrect. With a Fighter that has Axe ++ and War Hammer ++, if he equips a shield with a melee weapon, at least per the record page he does not get any bonus versus missiles at all. But the character who has S&S ++ does get the -4 to AC vs. missiles.

Lemernis

Just to clarify, the reason I asked if there is any difference re: equipping with missiles versus melee weapons is because it says "Note: despite the name of this style, any one-handed melee weapon in combination with a shield will receive the afore-mentioned bonuses." So it's not only incorrect (best I can see) but additionally confusing by making the distinction about a melee weapon.

elminster

Lemernis said:

I did just test it, and actually it is only with the melee weapon equipped that it confers -4 AC to missiles (whereas this bonus apparently disappears when equipping a melee weapon).

Yea that sounds like a bug to me. Not Remorhaz sized mind you but still buggish.

Dee

It's only melee weapons; equipping a sling with a shield doesn't give you the bonus.

(That's why it says "one-handed melee weapons", rather than "one-handed weapons".)

Gotural

The sentence used in the description is actually to clarify that equipping any melee weapon with a shield will give you the bonus not only a sword as in "SWORD and shield". Like equipping an axe and a shield for example.

I don't see what's wrong, it seems clear to me.

DreadKhan

The poor bonus stems imho from the general disrespect modern media portrays shields... shields were incredibly useful, most fighting in battle wore no armour, but fighting without a shield was seen as suicidal. Parrying during battle isnt very practical, but movies/tv love parrying but hate shields. A sizeable shield was basically mobile cover AND a good bludgeon. Roman legionaires typically fought more with their shield than their short swords, and were very effective as a result.

Anyways, I have long been irritated at how badly shields are implemented in DnD, but S+S is just salt on the wound. Why not offer some manner of melee advantage to make it semi-viable? Shields arent very good in BG to behin with, and someone with extensive training/practice with shields has no tricks to use with a shield in melee??

Shield bash would probably be a pain to implement, but an extra +1 AC wouldnt have been remotely unbalancing.

3.x had a couple really nifty feats that made shields vastly more effective, wonder if 5th will do anything interesting here. Then again, the AC boost from a shield means much more in 5th.

elminster

Dee said:

It's only melee weapons; equipping a sling with a shield doesn't give you the bonus.

(That's why it says "one-handed melee weapons", rather than "one-handed weapons".)

Ahh missed that. Still seems kind of silly that its just for melee weapons but I agree then that its not a bug since its working as intended.

Lemernis

Gotural said:

The sentence used in the description is actually to clarify that equipping any melee weapon with a shield will give you the bonus not only a sword as in "SWORD and shield". Like equipping an axe and a shield for example.

I don't see what's wrong, it seems clear to me.

It says that any (one-handed) melee weapon plus shield confers the "same afore-mentioned bonuses."

So according to that statement

Fighter
Axe ++
Sword and Shield ++

and

Fighter
Axe ++
anything other than Sword and Shield Style ++

who are both equipping an axe and a shield should each get the -4 AC bonus to missiles. But they don't. Only the character who has Sword and Shield style does.

But I now get that that is not what the statement is intended to convey.

Dee

....No.

The "same afore-mentioned bonuses" means bonuses conferred by Sword and Shield Style. So if you have one pip in S&S, it gives you that bonus. If you have two pips, it gives you that bonus. If you have no pips at all, then it gives you the bonus for that (i.e. no bonus).

i.e.

Axe ++
Sword and Shield Style ++
====
-4 AC vs Missile


Long Sword ++
Sword and Shield Style ++
====
-4 AC vs Missile


Axe ++
Sword and Shield Style (no pips at all)
====
No AC bonus vs Missile

Lemernis

Right, so what is not explicitly stated is that the statement applies to when Sword and Shield style is selected. And it is clear enough. I had thought that it seemed to be saying that if a melee weapon plus shield was equipped outside of that fighting style selection (it could be read that way, it seems to me) then the character gets the same bonus. I.e., that simply equipping a shield plus any one-handed melee weapon gives the same bonus. But I see now.

Lemernis

Based on that misinterpretation to start, I think one would be hard pressed to find a more tortured interpretation of a rule, lol. I mangled it beyond recognition.

DJKajuru

Unlike most forum members, I believe that -4 bonus against missiles from S&S works great, in BG1, against all those kobolds , bandits and hobgoblins. I usually give one point to Khalid and Jaheira , since both of them use shields .

Lemernis

Yeah, it is true that in BG1 it helps greatly in a lot of places. If you have the gauntlets of dexterity (or a high Dex character), ankheg armor, the belt and boots versus missiles, and the large shield +1 vs. missiles to begin with... and you add -4 from S&S style... The game's enemy archers aren't going to hit that character. And there's a lot of enemy gangs that have archers.

abacus

Am I correct in thinking that the biggest beneficiary would be someone who intended to use a buckler?
(Seeing as bucklers get no natural benefit vs missiles.)

DJKajuru

abacus said:

Am I correct in thinking that the biggest beneficiary would be someone who intended to use a buckler?
(Seeing as bucklers get no natural benefit vs missiles.)

Such as? Unless you're talking about Charname, I don't see any npc who'd use a buckler .

Lemernis

I have Imoen use a buckler. And actually Safana gets a bonus on HP at level-ups with the +1 to Con from Buckley's Buckler. The main weapon for Imoen is short bow but I have her switch out for backstabs. And in EE Safana is equipping one all the time.

artificial_sunlight

DreadKhan said:

Shield bash would probably be a pain to implement, but an extra +1 AC wouldnt have been remotely unbalancing.

I think it's pretty easy, use the effect that is on Keldorn's sword. "Any enemy who harms the wielder in melee range will receive 5 points of magical damage."
-Change magical in blund damage, finished

JuliusBorisov

Lemernis said:

I have Imoen use a buckler... I have her switch out for backstabs.

Although don't forget that if you're using only a single weapon and have put a pip into a single weapon style, the chance to get a critical hit is much better. For this reason I always check my thief dosn't have a shield prior to a backstab.

A buckler +1 CON can be quite handy for those NPCs who can get additional bonuses from using it (in a situation when your main character uses a solid shield granting good AC or cannot use a shield or +1 CON bonus is useless for him) - for e.g., Yeslick http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21212/yeslick-and-buckleys-buckler#latest

Eadwyn_G8keeper

DreadKhan said:

Shield bash would probably be a pain to implement,

3.x had a couple really nifty feats that made shields vastly more effective, wonder if 5th will do anything interesting here. Then again, the AC boost from a shield means much more in 5th.

Anyone wishing to conceptualize the storytelling elements that "SHIELD BASH" might restore to the noble art of role-playing should revisit the classic HBO series: ROME, Season One. Cue up the episode where Titus Pullo has been sentenced to fight to the death in the Gladiator's Arena. The one where Lucius Vorenus eventually comes to his aid. One of the greatest fight sequences ever filmed!!

abacus

Or pretty much any scene from Vikings!
Now I've said that, I'm off to make Lagertha!

CrossChipmonk

I know this thread is ancient, but god damn -_- Of course putting points into the skill you're reading about will give the ONLY bonus it mentions. It wouldn't give you anything at all if EVERYONE got the AC vs Missile bonuses without S&S.

And saying shit like 'I did just test it, and actually it is only with the melee weapon equipped that it confers -4 AC to missiles (whereas this bonus apparently disappears when equipping a melee weapon).'? So it works when you equip a melee weapon.
But it doesn't work when you equip a melee weapon? That's a bloody obvious paradox...*facepalm*

Venting completed. All is right with the world again.

Gloomfrost

December 21, 1998 Baldur's Gate hit the shelves.
Never have put a single point into Sword and Shield Style.
THE definition of a bad skill.

Chance of blocking a Critical or Melee resistance would of made this skill a viable alternative.