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Please give me party composition advice.

2

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  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    a couple of things worth mentioning regarding how IWD is different from BG:II and ToB

    -1- the difficulty curve is much steeper in IWD, especially because of linearity so multiclassed characters won't catch up as well as singleclassed ones in a balanced 6 char party. but dualclassed ones are absolutely fine (also no HLAs to consider, right?).
    -2- melee enemies are generally able to deal more damage in IWD which means tanking is *less* efficient than going blitzkrieg on them so choose classes and kits that reliably deal top damage (and here, those seem to be the warriors in my experience)
    -3- damage spells are okay, a couple of opening AoE blows is mandatory but for the remainder of the battle you're better off with focused raw power
    -4- simple buffs/debuffs such as haste/slow DESTROY those stupid melee hordes (thats' what you mostly need magic for)
    -5- enemy mages are weak and stupid so you don't need a lot of magic control to get to them (ruby ray, breach bleh bleh...) - this also means you don't need that much magic in general but 2 arcane casters are recommended to stay on the safe side because beamdog is sure to add some tougher mage fights with more BG-like aspects (multiple high level mages with sequencers etc.)
    -6- ranged weapons are weak on paper in IWD but work well tactically in many battles so put pips in that (another thing warriors are good for)
    -7- dual wielding is absolutely going to be stronger than two-handed

    so i'd go with this minmaxing party (low on convenience, high on power)

    - undead hunter (devastates undead)
    - blackguard (devastates bosses - aura of despair and poison)
    - kensai (reliably eliminates moderate threats en masse and chugs those otherwise useless healing potions)
    - fighter-cleric dual (some fighter levels for proficiencies but lots of cleric levels are are necessary for turn undead and more high level spells so this is better than a multi)
    - sorcerer (versatile casting role)
    - thief-mage dual (versatile/magic controller; specialist mage isn't really required i think, battles shouldn't last that long; thief is just for traps)

    no bard because it's a defensive role and you get more than enough buffing as is. bardsong regeneration looks good on paper but it won't do much when you need that extra pair of hands for killing

    Frogman
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,308
    I start a thread about role playing a new game, and now I've got some oak suggesting I pick an Undead Hunter and a Blackguard in the same party... Tsk tsk tsk...

    ElendarRAM021PibaroT2av
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    why not? is it not possible in IWD:EE?

    also, i'm not used to being called an oak, whatever that means. an apology might be appropriate.

  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,308
    Don't worry, oak isn't offensive.
    It usually implies camaraderie... Oaks are strong & sturdy. ;)

    My point was just that a simple RP based question quickly gets overrun by the power gamers.
    I never actually asked for an "optimum" party... Just any story-based elements that might render a particular party composition questionable. Or any party role that shouldn't be ignored (such as an effective way to take down undead, apparently).

    T2av
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 946
    Zeckul said:


    1) human fighter3/druid dualclass (+++ sling, ++ sword) 18/..-18-18-3-17-17
    2) human cleric5or9/illusionist dualclass (sling, mace, hammer, flail) 14+-18-16-18-15+-3
    3) human ranger7/cleric dualclass (++ sling, ++ mace, ++ flail) 18/00-18-18-3-18-3
    4) half-elf bard (bow, halberd, greatsword, crossbow) 14+-18-16-18-3-15+
    5) dwarf fighter/thief (++ bow, ++ dagger, ++ long sword) 18/00-17-19-useless
    6) gnome axe fighter (good aligned, +++++ axes, ++ bows) 18/00-18-18-useless

    No disrespect meant, at all, but I don't see how this is good advice for one who wants to make a well adjusted and super-efficient party.

    Why dual class from a cleric? Cleric, while yes, tend to fall off as single class characters, don't do so until far later in the game. Heck, if you want an illusionist, why delay? A gnome C/I is a great class, and will become even better when you can use Sequencers with new priest spells.

    Bards should probably have 10 wisdom, 13 if you want to use a bard instrument that casts heal (instantly if I recall correctly) thrice per day.

    R/C is an odd dual class with the druidic fixing. If you're going to dual, might as well go fighter 9 so you can GM a blunt weapon.

    The same for your druid is also true. Then again, getting a roll as good as you did is an absolute nightmare. I tend to minimize str at 15/16 because Elven Might gloves for multi- fighters are great to have.

    I see nothing wrong with the rest. I understand the use of gnome for the Trusted Defender helmet, a definitely worthy cause.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    abacus said:

    Don't worry, oak isn't offensive.
    It usually implies camaraderie... Oaks are strong & sturdy. ;)

    My point was just that a simple RP based question quickly gets overrun by the power gamers.
    I never actually asked for an "optimum" party... Just any story-based elements that might render a particular party composition questionable. Or any party role that shouldn't be ignored (such as an effective way to take down undead, apparently).

    frankly i think that you don't have a proper representation of what the game really is...the story does exist but it won't compel you to immerse yourself in such a way that you wish that the characters were more connected to it, because they're simply can't be. they don't ever say anything! they don't even really exist as characters, they're just fighting number-crunching automatons whose predetermined destinies invariably distill to: "kill and kill again efficiently and painlessly as possible till the game is over".
    this fact will dawn on you sooner or later as you go through the game and i promise you that it's not going to be a huge disappointment whatever your feelings might be now. you'll just learn to appreciate the game for what it is and understand that 100% of roleplaying begins and ends at character creation and what follows is 100% carnage.

    icewind dale is like black pits with large levels and real loot.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    abacus said:

    Thankfully I don't have to game from inside your head... Sounds a hoot.
    Black Pits can absolutely be role-played...

    it absolutely can, for 2.7% people. other people would likely rather move to actual role-playing games if they yearn roleplaying immersion.

    btw you've forgotten that old saying: "no spoilering = no foruming"

    Frogman
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    edited September 2014
    bob_veng said:

    -1- the difficulty curve is much steeper in IWD, especially because of linearity so multiclassed characters won't catch up as well as singleclassed ones in a balanced 6 char party. but dualclassed ones are absolutely fine (also no HLAs to consider, right?).

    Couldn't disagree more with this idea. Grinding for xp is pretty simple, and the multiclassed characters are so much more powerful than single classed that is sickening.
    bob_veng said:

    -2- melee enemies are generally able to deal more damage in IWD which means tanking is *less* efficient than going blitzkrieg on them so choose classes and kits that reliably deal top damage (and here, those seem to be the warriors in my experience)

    Again, I have to disagree. A fighter/mage with all the fantastic self-buffs can probably tank very efficiently here while your other characters go on with killing them.
    bob_veng said:

    - undead hunter (devastates undead)
    - blackguard (devastates bosses - aura of despair and poison)

    A blackguard and a paladin in the same roleplaying party? Right..
    bob_veng said:

    no bard because it's a defensive role and you get more than enough buffing as is. bardsong regeneration looks good on paper but it won't do much when you need that extra pair of hands for killing

    Anyone who doesn't take a bard in IWD is a fool.


    RAM021jackjack
  • CasadoomCasadoom Member Posts: 68
    Elendar said:


    bob_veng said:

    - undead hunter (devastates undead)
    - blackguard (devastates bosses - aura of despair and poison)

    A blackguard and a paladin in the same roleplaying party? Right..
    He said minmax, nothing about roleplay (which is technically not compatible with 3 intelligence characters by the way).

  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    Casadoom said:

    Elendar said:


    bob_veng said:

    - undead hunter (devastates undead)
    - blackguard (devastates bosses - aura of despair and poison)

    A blackguard and a paladin in the same roleplaying party? Right..
    He said minmax, nothing about roleplay (which is technically not compatible with 3 intelligence characters by the way).

    OP was about creating a roleplaying party.

    T2av
  • CasadoomCasadoom Member Posts: 68
    Elendar said:

    OP was about creating a roleplaying party.

    Was talking about the other guy but you are correct. OP asked for a (strong) roleplaying party rather than senseless wtfpwn party (which the blackguard/pala was not).

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I would totally roleplay a party with a blackguard and a paladin. That sounds like a barrel of fun.

    FrogmanRAM021jackjack
  • CasadoomCasadoom Member Posts: 68
    Jarrakul said:

    I would totally roleplay a party with a blackguard and a paladin. That sounds like a barrel of fun.

    Well, you could pretend they were the only survivors of Hrothgar's expeditions and decided to band together until they could escape from the region (we are supposedly stuck right?). I would, however, expect them to pre-arrange a duel to the death once the deed is done.

    Unless you are a Shadowbane Inquisitor or some other cheesy LG Paladin kit, the only issue would be with the fact that paladins can technically not work with evil characters. Either way, I do not see how this can be done without either or both of them falling.

    Sounds fun indeed for a PnP session but not so for a pre-scripted game that honestly makes little sense for an evil character and does not allow you to fall unless you drop the reputation which is almost impossible without force attacking.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    edited September 2014
    Elendar said:

    Couldn't disagree more with this idea. Grinding for xp is pretty simple, and the multiclassed characters are so much more powerful than single classed that is sickening.

    I don't think that can be right. By definition, there's no grinding in IWD because it's linear and enemies don't respawn (there's a cheesy exception). Grinding is hunting mobs you otherwise wouldn't have to fight for xp gain - none of that in IWD (you'll go through every fight by default unless you want to purposefully evade combat)
    It's the BG games that have grinding and pumping levels before more difficult battles - that makes BG's difficulty curve *negative* - the game constantly gets easier because the further you go, you get more opportunity to adapt and prepare for the real challenges.
    IWD with HoF's doesn't give you that option, it constantly propels you forward in a single direction so it's difficulty curve is constantly rising (it actually does get harder), especially during some parts of the game (TotL).

    When it comes to multiclasses, look below.
    Elendar said:

    Again, I have to disagree. A fighter/mage with all the fantastic self-buffs can probably tank very efficiently here while your other characters go on with killing them.

    Battles are way more straightforward in IWD. The threat from physical attacks is high but is also easily eliminated - this means that attacking is the way to go. Sure, you can tank, but you don't get anything special for it.
    Tanking in BG2 actually takes the form of immunities, resistances and aggroing, not so much damage soaking anyway. IWD doesn't have those finer aspects its just all out carnage, everybody should deal damage as much as possible and when it comes to multiclasses, normal IWD doesn't give you enough levels to play an optimal character *especially* a fighter/mage (needs many more levels to shine as a damage dealer).
    Elendar said:

    Anyone who doesn't take a bard in IWD is a fool.

    I take time to reasonably explain my perspectives. I'm not used to being called a fool. An apology might be appropriate.

  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,031
    Dazzu said:

    Zeckul said:


    1) human fighter3/druid dualclass (+++ sling, ++ sword) 18/..-18-18-3-17-17
    2) human cleric5or9/illusionist dualclass (sling, mace, hammer, flail) 14+-18-16-18-15+-3
    3) human ranger7/cleric dualclass (++ sling, ++ mace, ++ flail) 18/00-18-18-3-18-3
    4) half-elf bard (bow, halberd, greatsword, crossbow) 14+-18-16-18-3-15+
    5) dwarf fighter/thief (++ bow, ++ dagger, ++ long sword) 18/00-17-19-useless
    6) gnome axe fighter (good aligned, +++++ axes, ++ bows) 18/00-18-18-useless

    Why dual class from a cleric? Cleric, while yes, tend to fall off as single class characters, don't do so until far later in the game. Heck, if you want an illusionist, why delay? A gnome C/I is a great class, and will become even better when you can use Sequencers with new priest spells.

    Bards should probably have 10 wisdom, 13 if you want to use a bard instrument that casts heal (instantly if I recall correctly) thrice per day.

    R/C is an odd dual class with the druidic fixing. If you're going to dual, might as well go fighter 9 so you can GM a blunt weapon.

    The same for your druid is also true. Then again, getting a roll as good as you did is an absolute nightmare. I tend to minimize str at 15/16 because Elven Might gloves for multi- fighters are great to have.

    I see nothing wrong with the rest. I understand the use of gnome for the Trusted Defender helmet, a definitely worthy cause.
    Thanks for the interesting suggestions. I was merely posting my actual party and not proposing it as something optimal.

    I am not sure I would prefer an illusionist/cleric multiclass as I like reaching higher level spells ASAP and the multiclass will level more slowly. But there's of course the advantage of not losing access to cleric spells for some part of the game which is annoying.

    I didn't actually roll 18/00 for my druid, just getting enough points to meet the requirements to dual-class is hard enough. I just listed that as what to aim for.

    I agree about the ranger not being the optimal class to dual to cleric, however you do get the Tracking ability which provides interesting information throughout the game.

    Interesting point about the bard, I didn't know. The instrument you refer to is The Unstrung Harp which is found near the end of HoW and provides Heal once per day. http://www.gamebanshee.com/showshot.php?/icewinddale/equipment/images/theunstrungharp.jpg

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    edited September 2014
    that's an exploit.

    i don't want to know more about why i should take a bard, i already have my opinion, tx.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Elendar said:

    I don't know whether or not IWD has scrolls such as Stoneskin, Protection from Normal Weapons, and Protection from Magic Weapons, but assuming they do, a Fighter/Mage should be able to tank easily enough.

    IWD has Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and a ring fairly early on that doubles your 2nd level spells. If your fighter/mage takes damage after hitting 7th level, you have no one to blame but yourself.

    ElendarKloroxjackjack
  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 403
    Jarrakul said:

    I would totally roleplay a party with a blackguard and a paladin. That sounds like a barrel of fun.

    A Blackguard, a Paladin and a Druid walk into a bar...

    jackjack
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,848
    RAM021 said:

    Jarrakul said:

    I would totally roleplay a party with a blackguard and a paladin. That sounds like a barrel of fun.

    A Blackguard, a Paladin and a Druid walk into a bar...
    I want to hear the rest of this story. Color me intrigued.

    RAM021jackjack
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,835
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,374
    edited September 2014
    For Dual/Multiclassing, keep in mind that up to around level 9, the XP requirements for the next level constantly doubles, so Multiclassing up to level 9 usually only costs you 1 level in each class. From that point on, however, Multiclasses go at half the speed of Singleclasses.

    Say a Singleclass is level 10 and a Multiclass is level 9/9. 6 levels later, a Singleclass is level 16, while the Multiclass is level 12/12. Multiclassing is very strong in the early game, but starts to slack off after.

    Dualclassing has the pain that it takes out your first class for a while, but it has benefits. In the above example, let's say the Multiclass was a Dualclass instead, who switched at level 9. When the Singleclass is level 10, the Dualclass is still level 9/9, like the Multiclass. 6 levels later, the Singleclass is 16, the Multiclass is 12/12, but the Dualclass is 9/15, only a single level behind the Singleclass, but with the special abilities of the first 9 levels of another class.

    Numbers are a bit off, as not all classes have the same XP progress, and the change from exponential to linear progression is not at 9 for every class. Here's a good overview:

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

    Bards and Thieves reach level 11 at 220k and then 220k per level.
    Clerics and Monks reach level 9 at 225k, and then 225k per level.
    Barbarians and Fighters reach level 9 at 250k, and then 250k per level.
    Paladins and Rangers reach level 9 at 300k and then 300k per level.
    Mages and Sorcerers reach level 11 at 375k and then 375k per level.

    The Druid is a little messed up. It keeps on roughly doubling all the way up to level 15 at 3000k, and then should go up by 500k per level until level 20 (with extra information about the later levels only being available to hierophants and what not) according to the normal 2nd edition rules. If the above link has the correct information, it's still 3000k at level 15, but then goes up by only 150k per level until level 23, and then 300k per level from there. I guess it makes some sense, as the original druid table is already very whack, and that gets them to the same XP requirement as Mages for level 20.

    bob_vengRAM021
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    edited September 2014
    yeah...multiclass again becomes superior, but much later (not soon enough for normal iwd)

    therefore dualclasses will be stronger, (edit: among other things) because there will be no HLAs (< is this confirmed?) which comes to play in HoF anyway

    Post edited by bob_veng on
  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 403
    bob_veng said:

    therefore dualclasses will be stronger, because there will be no HLAs (< is this confirmed?) which comes to play in HoF anyway

    HLA inclusion is confirmed.

    jackjack
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,302
    edited September 2014
    oh that's sweet

    what was the normal attainable level in the IWD+HoW campaign? was it lvl21-23 for a fighter if i remember correctly?

    ...or under 20

  • 1234512345 Member Posts: 27
    edited September 2014
    I remember that there wasn't a lot of trap in the original game and most of the chest can be force to open (still have the unlock spell). Didn't need a thief to go trought it. Originaly, I did it with :

    1) Paladin
    2) Fighter
    3) Cleric
    4) Transmutateur

    Small party bring more XP per character. But with a 6 character team, my best for IwD1 and 2 was :

    Class __________________ Suggestion

    1) Paladin ....................... Hundead hunter
    2) Fighter ........................ Berseker
    3) Cleric ......................... Helm
    4) Sorcerer ..................... AK47 of damage spell
    5) Ranger ........................ The dude staying back with the bow harving flower and chating with cuttee bee
    6) A specialised mage....... Specialised in mass spell cursing/dividing/sapping opponement

    In the need, a 4 lvl gnome thief can be multi-class as a illusionist, but in the world of Iwd, I prefer having a 100% human party...looks more likely to me.

    And If you like the badass fallen party, just switch the paladin for blackguard and Ranger for Fallen Paladin... mouhaha...looks like a solution for the discussion above about blackguard and paladin in the same party!!!

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 817
    Thels said:

    For Dual/Multiclassing, keep in mind that up to around level 9, the XP requirements for the next level constantly doubles, so Multiclassing up to level 9 usually only costs you 1 level in each class. From that point on, however, Multiclasses go at half the speed of Singleclasses.

    Say a Singleclass is level 10 and a Multiclass is level 9/9. 6 levels later, a Singleclass is level 16, while the Multiclass is level 12/12. Multiclassing is very strong in the early game, but starts to slack off after.

    You're right, but there's also the argument of diminishing returns.

    Aside from HLA's, Warriors and Thieves reach a point (level 13, let's say), where level ups really don't add much. After level 20, they add almost nothing (when THAC0 stops advancing).

    One could use this fact as another advantage of dual classing, I suppose.

    My only issue with "optimal dual classing" (after level 13 as a fighter or about 10 as a thief) is that the classes you want to dual into will really be missed at the beginning.

    I've used Fighters that Dual at level
    3 into Cleric and Druid to great effect in IWD in the past. The low level still grants extra weapon proficiency points, which really helps in this game.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    If you are going to play the game streight, without HoF or xp farming, then you won't get your original class back in time for the end if you duel much after level 7 or so.

    jackjack
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