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Barbie vs Zerker - now with Dwarven defenders

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Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,990
    I like the idea of a barbarian halfling from a thematic point of view, but I'd still probably go with the berserker.

    jackjacklolien
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    Well I ran another group through the BG:EE black pits, comprising a defender, zerker, & barbie, all dwarven, and all with 18:50 STR, 17 DEX, 19 CON. It was again super easy. The barbie was really not any weaker than the zerker, but I was constantly worried about the defender, both in terms of his ability to run away when taking too much damage, and because of his chances of failing a domination. In fairness he only did this once, and did not attack the other two.

    I have now imported them into BG2:EE black pits, twice each, so I have a group of 6, comprising two of each character. This will be my first attempt at BP2 without any spellcasting support, but I'm pretty confident of making it at least through the first two rounds, but that first demon fight might be too much.

    lolienRAM021
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    edited September 2014
    OK so I blasted through the first round, this is the final fight of the round, against the vampires. I was extremely close to being owned, my last fighter got the killshot in with 4 hit points.

    image

    The fight went pretty sub-optimally, to start a defender got dominated, then I didn't watch my rages and a barbie also turned, then a zerker died, then the other zerker, finally I had a barbie and a defender against two stealth vampires and Gaul. I managed to kill both, but the barbie died too, then Gaul summoned a skellie, really without azureedge I didn't have a hope.

    image

    So now I plan to repeat the first round, this time asking the audience for loot, because up till now I've been sucking up to the audience. After that I'll just continue on to the end asking for loot every time.

    EDIT Note that the one that survived was a defender, with a barbie coming a close second :p

    lolienRAM021elminsterJuliusBorisov
  • I'd love to play a Barbarian->Druid though.

    You can... in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance 2.

    lolienRAM021elminsterjackjack
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    Yup, I planned to, but there was just too much going on. Being somewhat ADD, I generally avoid a party of 6, but the BP2 allocates the same XP to each character regardless of whether you have one person or 6, so more people are better. In a power run I would gladly swap the second three characters for one arcane caster, a chain 3x ADHW and a planetar would make most of these fights trivial.

    Girewan
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457

    @tennisgolfboll‌ What about cooldown?

    Aint nothing that survives 10 rounds of mayhem if you know how to chain your damage. Which is another advantage for the zerker. I mostly need more than 5 rounds for hard fights which mean i need to reactivate barb rage and he is tanking and might get interrupted. Then FAKK

    With zerker this is a non issue. Also the zerker has 0,5 more apr, reaching str 25 is easy to if you want damage output and then the barbs rage give no dmg bonus while the zerker still gets dmg and to hit.

    But for me it comes down to 1 thing (i hate imprisonment) and id like tonthink that charname wouldnt get wtfpwned the next time he faces a boss lich and has used all scrolls in bg2...rp thing maybe but the weakness of barb rage here really bothers me.

    Klorox
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Barbarian vs Berserker...ah, the old flame-wars-inducing question.

    I still vote for the Barbarian...
    image
    (by nebezial.deviantart.com)

    The_Potty_1jackjack
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    I replayed the vampire fight with a couple more levels, and this time both barbarians survived pretty comfotably, while everyone else died.

    I then blew swiftly through the next couple of fights pretty easily, even the demon fight.

    Finally I lost my first fight. The rakasha. Everyone died.

    image

    I redid it with unenchanted weapons, which also didn't work, however I managed to outlast their PFMWs.

    image

    image

    JuliusBorisov
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    My point with this run is to get a feel for the relative usefulness of the best three out of the box melee builds. Yes, I realize that unfortunate choice of words is probably going to launch a plethora of derailments about the actual 'best melee build', but I'm talking about the innate class that can walk into an ambush after a week without any sleep, and walk out the other side pouring someone elses blood out of their boots.

    Unfortunately, the mere act of choosing only melee characters influences the outcome. The AI may well be targeting the zerkers as the ones with the lowest hit points. Yes OK vanilla, so probably not, but it's a consideration. Also having to kit out 6 fighters means they don't always have the best gear.

    Anyway, the vampire fight stands out as the only BP2 fight so far to field an enemy which backstabs, and the barbarians owned it due to their immunity. Apart from that, it has been essentially random which build survives more often.

    As for damage, zerkers of course owned to start, but once they hit 3M, the others caught up a bit, so really any of them would be a credit to the team. Nothing much without the PFMW spell can survive 60 APR for more than a round.

    I'm still slightly favoring the barbarian, because if the zerker doesn't get the kill in 10 rounds, he's left open to nasty spells, whereas the barbie can refresh their rage immediately. The defender is a distant third.

    FinneousPJJuliusBorisovGirewan
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    @The_Potty_1‌ Yup, I've also tried all three classes and I've come to the same conclusion. If you had a team with squishies like a mage you might also appreciate the movement speed advantage of the barb. I've found it helps vs the AI which likes to run straight after your mage.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    They should have made a demi lich in there and you would be singing a different tune. In bg2 they did that.

    ; )

    JuliusBorisov
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    It looks like the Berserker and Barbarian are really, really close.

    To me they are also. It's the immunity to imprisonment, and LEGAL ability to dual class, if you choose to, that pushes the Berserker ahead.

  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    @tennisgolfboll The fourth tier of BP2 pits you against two demiliches, but they are so nerfed that if they were ever to bump into Kangaax, I think Kangaax would have a pair of lichnutzkullz to hang on his crypt.

    Anyway, I finished, after a fashion. What that means is I completed all of the challenges, and finally got to take on Dennaton's hunters. This went really really badly. So bad that I decided there's no point in another try. However, new day, new hope, I did after all solo a barbarian through ascension, so this SHOULD actually be doable. I'll load all of the best gear onto my barbarians, and use the others as glass cannons. I do have 40 potions of superior healing, so if I can't keep them alive it's probably because I used an offensive ability when I should have slugged a potion and ran.

    FinneousPJJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,169
    This discussion seems to come up again and again over the years, it's amazing ;)

    Not much has changed, either, it seems. It's a fairly even comparison for single class, but of course the fact that Berserkers can dual is a BIG thing. On that note...
    Klorox said:

    [...] LEGAL ability to dual class, if you choose to, that pushes the Berserker ahead.

    There is an argument to be made that calls into question the "illegality" of Barbarian duals - they are a fighter kit in the game, and they are not restricted from dualing in PnP. Why BG does forbid it is a mystery, but you're right, in the unmodded game it's not possible. Still... it's a fairly interesting (albeit different) discussion if you allow Barbarians to dual also.

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457

    @tennisgolfboll The fourth tier of BP2 pits you against two demiliches, but they are so nerfed that if they were ever to bump into Kangaax, I think Kangaax would have a pair of lichnutzkullz to hang on his crypt.

    Anyway, I finished, after a fashion. What that means is I completed all of the challenges, and finally got to take on Dennaton's hunters. This went really really badly. So bad that I decided there's no point in another try. However, new day, new hope, I did after all solo a barbarian through ascension, so this SHOULD actually be doable. I'll load all of the best gear onto my barbarians, and use the others as glass cannons. I do have 40 potions of superior healing, so if I can't keep them alive it's probably because I used an offensive ability when I should have slugged a potion and ran.

    @tennisgolfboll The fourth tier of BP2 pits you against two demiliches, but they are so nerfed that if they were ever to bump into Kangaax, I think Kangaax would have a pair of lichnutzkullz to hang on his crypt.

    Anyway, I finished, after a fashion. What that means is I completed all of the challenges, and finally got to take on Dennaton's hunters. This went really really badly. So bad that I decided there's no point in another try. However, new day, new hope, I did after all solo a barbarian through ascension, so this SHOULD actually be doable. I'll load all of the best gear onto my barbarians, and use the others as glass cannons. I do have 40 potions of superior healing, so if I can't keep them alive it's probably because I used an offensive ability when I should have slugged a potion and ran.

    Yeah i meant a real demi lich with ranged instant cast imprisonment!

  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 427
    That's it, i'm out. I'm gonna go ahead and say it's possible, but it would probably take me another 3-4 tries, because I keep making stupid mistakes.

    This first shot is as Bannor (the adamite golem) dies. We've already taken out one of the others, some odd build that casts mislead a couple of times, but unlike the other casters, doesn't throw up PFMW.

    image

    Four hunters remain, 3 arcane casters and a fallen planetar. The planetar seems to have damage resistance, knows how to cast heal, and the vorpal effect really works. Much frantic running and dying followed, until finally I abandoned the others to their fate, focused on the second barbarian, grabbed all the best gear, and just ran. He'd occasionally snipe any non-planetars, without any effect. Finally he caught the casters away from the planetar, so fired off a GWW. And got a vorpal hit of his own.

    image

    Unfortunately the planetar teleported over, and I really should have run, because the barbie needs a rage up to melee the planetar. Instead I tried to use the rest of the GWW to hit the other two casters, and got vorpalled.

    FinneousPJ
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Don't sweat it. It was a great run. Any final thoughts?

    JuliusBorisov
  • SionaSiona Member Posts: 79
    I'm not incredibly knowledgeable of the game, but last night I quit a dwarves defender game in underdark because it was just way too easy. Minsc, cernd, jahiera, hexxat as the party. The only eventful thing that ever happened was having to go healbot on Minsc halfway thru every encounter. It got to the point that I was scouting with the dwarf in full view, drawing aggro and killing everything, and then advancing the rest of my party. At that point I just said no more. Think I will try a stalker or blade when I get home from work.

    elminster
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    Dwarf berserker/barb/def is very powerful so i know what you mean.

    But they cant do anything but do battle so its the way it should be

    Siona
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Make a party with all three?

    vladpen
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    This discussion seems to come up again and again over the years, it's amazing ;)

    Not much has changed, either, it seems. It's a fairly even comparison for single class, but of course the fact that Berserkers can dual is a BIG thing. On that note...

    Klorox said:

    [...] LEGAL ability to dual class, if you choose to, that pushes the Berserker ahead.

    There is an argument to be made that calls into question the "illegality" of Barbarian duals - they are a fighter kit in the game, and they are not restricted from dualing in PnP. Why BG does forbid it is a mystery, but you're right, in the unmodded game it's not possible. Still... it's a fairly interesting (albeit different) discussion if you allow Barbarians to dual also.
    As barbarian is imemented as a class, multiclass should also be legal. Start adding in dwarf barbarian/clerics, and the barb gets a major boost.

    RAM021
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Actially, since Barbarian in PnP is completely different, it was probably a good call to restrict it. BG Barbarian/Cleric multi is pretty beefy for durability.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,990
    edited October 2014
    DreadKhan said:

    Actially, since Barbarian in PnP is completely different, it was probably a good call to restrict it. BG Barbarian/Cleric multi is pretty beefy for durability.

    Plus the only benefit for taking a fighter/cleric multiclass over a barbarian/cleric multi would be a minor boost to armor class (which if its considered to be its own separate class, rather than a kit, might not even apply since clerics can wear plate mail).

    RAM021
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