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So, I just killed Kivan to save Viconia

SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471
First, let me explain that I've always felt that BG1 Viconia was a rather sympathetic character (I emphasize BG1 vs. BG2 Viconia, because I find BG2 Viccy to be a nasty b*tch). To me, she's someone who is unfairly maligned and persecuted because of the color of her skin and perceptions about her race. I know that many people will argue that my perception of this issue is misplaced, because I'm applying modern-day sensibilities to a fantasy game that was never intended to be perceived in that way, but I've always taken the opposite view that the BGs are actually very effective allegories for the modern world.

Anyway, from the moment that I first encounter Viconia, I always feel a sense of responsibility for her, much like when I first save Neera or Aerie. I view her as being persecuted by a rogue officer, who insists that she is a murderer but offers up no other "proof" than the color of her skin, and intends to kill her without allowing her the opportunity for a fair trial. Personally, I've always felt that a good-aligned character is the one that should feel compelled to save Viconia, whereas an evil-aligned one would just be indifferent.

Anyway, getting back to the topic, my party had just rescued Viconia in Peldvale, then teamed up with Raiken to infiltrate the bandit camp. I outlined what happened next in my other thread here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/34935/um-i-just-killed-tazok-in-the-bandit-camp

As usual, Tazok insisted that my party prove itself in a contest of wills before he would welcome them into the camp. However, in this case, it seems that Tazok simply refused to accept that my scantily clad female barbarian could ever best him in combat, and he ended up fighting to the death because of his stubborn refusal to admit that he was wrong. Fittingly, Kivan delivered the final, fatal blow, thereby avenging the death of his loved one.

Apparently, now that his obsessive quest for vengeance was now over, Kivan decided that he needed a new target for his inner rage, and he turned his attention toward Viconia. Even after Viconia had served us so dutifully thus far, even healing his fellow party members during prior battles, he began to openly question her loyalty to the group.

image

Although Viconia tried to assure Kivan that she no longer worshiped Lolth, Kivan persisted in trying to antagonize her. Eventually, after Viconia warned Kivan not to continue harassing her, he took it upon himself to attack her.

image

My party acted quickly to try to save Viconia - too quickly, in retrospect. My barbarian sharpshooter dealt him heavy damage with an arrow, Tiax "commanded" him to sleep (which is rather surprising, since elves are supposed to have high resistance to sleep spells), Dorn absorbed his health, and Imoen (dualed to a mage) dealt the coup de grace with an ice wand zap. As a result of that last blow, Kivan was chunked into pieces. In fact, the blow was apparently so deadly, that it cause him to die twice!

image

Afterward, Viconia expressed her gratitude for the kindness and understanding that my party has shown her.

image

Unfortunately, the fact that I've just chunked Kivan means that I've now lost my party's rearguard and backup archer. I also lost all the items, magical and otherwise, that he was carrying at the time - which included the archery gauntlets, which my party leader had only just passed to him after picking up Tazok's gauntlets.

image

Oh well! I suppose this is what I get for being a minimal-reload RPer!

Post edited by SharGuidesMyHand on
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Comments

  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    You just murdered the only likeable elf in the Forgotten Realms.

    Kivan was only speaking the truth and proved his point perfectly.

    booinyoureyeskcwise
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,264
    I've never seen that encounter. Neat! I guess the lesson here is that if you can disable one of the duelers by Command, Blind, Hold, Dire Charm, etc. then you can control the situation more. If you needed to be absolutely sure of stopping him from killing her (and his arrows are pretty damn lethal), then you may have to kill him so that he's just dead and not chunked, then consider resurrecting him. Or from a RP perspective let them duke it out solo, just the two of them. Or maybe proceed according to how you imagine the rest of the party may feel regarding their respective feelings towards the two, i.e., who helps who.

    I've only seen the fight break out between Xzar and Montaron versus Khalid and Jaheira from among all the NPC scripted fights. It happened twice. The first time I was helpless to intervene and I think J&K prevailed. The second time I was able to stop the battle and then they returned to normal. That was probably due to a tweakpack or some mod, I would imagine.

    kcwise
  • sirthaddaeussirthaddaeus Member Posts: 41
    very cool! i've played bg1 a ton and still haven't seen either encounter. i guess it's time to fire it back up.

    jackjack
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    One side has to die or the fight never ends. I once had Khalid and Jaheira versus Xzar and Montaron without weapons, and the fight just wouldn't end. I tried saving and loading, leaving the map and returning, charming and seperating them. Nothing worked. Charming them half-worked... I was able to speak to Jaheira again and get her in my group, but as soon as she went near Xzar or Montaron she left the group to fight again.

    kcwiselunarjackjack
  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 455

    You just murdered the only likeable elf in the Forgotten Realms.

    Kivan was only speaking the truth and proved his point perfectly.

    However he is gruff, bitter and unforgiving.

    Raistlin82
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    @BladeDancer‌
    You say it like they're bad things. The funny thing is, Kivan is more suited to being a Shar worshipper. Among her followers are the "bitter" and those who've suffered loss.

    Viconia is a neutral evil worshipper of Shar and "former" worshipper of Lloth. This means nobody should believe a thing she says...

    booinyoureyeskcwiseGrum
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    @BladeDancer
    I mostly agree with what you say, and I'm all for "gray" characters, but I don't see Viconia as gray at all... I think she just plays everyone for fools, either that or she has a split personality disorder. One minute she's playing the damsel, being well mannered and grateful, and the next she's calling you things like "pathetic"... "weakling"... "surface scum".

    Neutral Evil:
    http://easydamus.com/neutralevil.html
    "The personal code of a neutral evil character may look like this:
    1. You shall lie to advance yourself.
    2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself.
    3. You shall kill to advance yourself.
    4. You shall not aid the weak.
    5. You shall honor those who are stronger.
    6. You shall follow the law only to advance yourself.
    7. You shall betray friends, family, community, and nation to advance yourself.
    8. You shall not aid those who protect the weak.
    9. You shall not show mercy to enemies.
    10. You shall seek unlimited power over others."

    Sound like someone we know?

    And Drizzt isn't much better, he threatens to kill you if you don't help him against the gnolls...

    booinyoureyesSoren_The_Wild
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,203
    Rivalry between drow and darthir is notorious, and for good reason. However, I would have saved Viconia as well.

  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 455
    edited September 2014

    @BladeDancer
    I mostly agree with what you say, and I'm all for "gray" characters, but I don't see Viconia as gray at all... I think she just plays everyone for fools, either that or she has a split personality disorder. One minute she's playing the damsel, being well mannered and grateful, and the next she's calling you things like "pathetic"... "weakling"... "surface scum".

    Neutral Evil:
    http://easydamus.com/neutralevil.html
    "The personal code of a neutral evil character may look like this:
    1. You shall lie to advance yourself.
    2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself.
    3. You shall kill to advance yourself.
    4. You shall not aid the weak.
    5. You shall honor those who are stronger.
    6. You shall follow the law only to advance yourself.
    7. You shall betray friends, family, community, and nation to advance yourself.
    8. You shall not aid those who protect the weak.
    9. You shall not show mercy to enemies.
    10. You shall seek unlimited power over others."

    Sound like someone we know?

    And Drizzt isn't much better, he threatens to kill you if you don't help him against the gnolls...

    Though she embraces the ways of the drow, she shows subtle signs that she can become a better person. She plays everyone for fools usually out of necessity. Most of everything she does is out of necessity, not on a whim, and even though she is neutral evil, she does NOT follow ALL of the personal codes of being neutral evil, for example, she does not seek unlimited power (I can't say the same for Dorn), all she wants is to live on the surface world without being provoked by anybody. She trusted farmers, and ironically they ended up betraying her, burying her alive. A deeply neutral evil drow would not let her guard down so easily. She is capable of being good aligned, or at least neutral aligned, even Rasaad in BG2:EE SoA can see that in his banter with her.

    Rasaad: "I know you worship Shar, Viconia, and you think we have little to discuss..."

    Viconia: "There is nothing I wish to discuss with you."

    Rasaad: "...But the precepts of incandescence are clear. It is my duty to recognize the light in others, not just the darkness."

    Viconia: "I don't want to hear about your precious Sun Soul philosophy, monk."

    Rasaad: "There is light in you, Viconia. I know there is."

    Viconia: "Keep talking and I'll paint this place red with your inner light."

    Rasaad: "I shall leave you for now."

    I never refused to help Drizzt with the gnolls, so I don't know if you're being honest or lying about what he says if you refuse to help him. Personally I think you are in denial about his personality, threatening the player simply because you refuse to help sounds completely out of character for him.

  • wuthering20wuthering20 Member Posts: 39
    I encountered the same scenario as OP with BG1 NPC Project installed. Yet I remember choosing a dialogue to stop the fight. Seems this option is added by the mod, then.

  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    Yeah, Drizzt attacking you for not agreeing to help him in a fight with which he clearly needs no help is pretty ridiculous, it always bugged me that he does that.

    As for Viconia, she is pretty clearly evil in a way, but there are plenty of reasons to sympathize with her. Growing up in Drow society pretty much dictates that you are at best Neutral Evil if you're going to survive. If you're not looking out for yourself in that world, then nobody's looking out for you. Also, all of the supposedly good (mercenaries, guards, not to mention the entire mob and guard contingent in the government district in BG2) surfacers that outdo her in evil by literally attempting to murder her for no more than her race make it pretty difficult to hate her. I'd say it's easy to sympathize because most would become at the very least self-serving if faced with her situation.

    booinyoureyesRavenslightcognoscentusdreamrider
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471

    You just murdered the only likeable elf in the Forgotten Realms.

    Kivan was only speaking the truth and proved his point perfectly.

    I can't agree with either of these statements.

    Efficient? Absolutely. But likable? I think he generally behaves like a complete douche. There's a reason that he only has about 8 or 9 charisma (uncharacteristically low for an elf).

    And I don't believe that he proved his point at all - in fact, I feel that he comes off looking like the "evil" one in this exchange.

    Raistlin82
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471
    Heindrich said:

    @SharGuidesMyHand‌
    Don't you play with BG1NPC? Maybe this encounter is a part of the mod? It might explain why others never came across it. I don't know, I've never had Vic in my BG 1 parties.

    I've installed some of the smaller components of the NPC mod (like the one that relocates Tiax to Beregost), but not the main component that adds banters.

    From what I understand (though I could be wrong), this interaction has always existed in BG1, but the original game was bugged so that it seldom, if ever, fully played out. I remember playing vanilla and seeing the first two lines of the interaction numerous times, but then nothing after that. It would appear that either EE or the Project fixed whatever was impeding the interaction.
    Heindrich said:


    I think even a "liberal" man in Faerun would be somewhat prejudiced against Drow because pretty much any Drow he encounters would likely try to kill or enslave him.

    Unless that person had already met Drizzt (which my party has) - and even if they hadn't, Drizzt is already well-known and renowned throughout the Realms as a hero, so much so that your rep takes a massive hit if you kill him. I think a more "liberal" person would keep an open mind to the possibility that a drow could be a "renegade" like Drizzt.
    Heindrich said:

    Perhaps he might try to persuade the Flaming Fist soldier to arrest Viconia to face justice rather than kill her outright, but once the two begin to fight, Good characters should help, or at least not hinder, the Flaming Fist soldier.

    The problem here is that if you do or say anything to impede the soldier from executing Viconia, he will then attack you, so there's no opportunity to side with the soldier once you've tried to discourage him from killing Viconia.
    Heindrich said:

    Consider this... if instead of a "damsel in distress" kinda scenario with Viconia, she was a Beholder or Mindflayer who claims to have deserted from its community and only seek to live in peace on the surface, but is being pursued by monster-hunting Flaming Fists, would you really trust a Beholder/Mind Flayer's words over the (legitimate) authorities? If the answer is no, why is Viconia any different, given her race is also generally also evil.

    See @booinyoureyes‌ ' subsequent post for my thoughts on this issue.

    Simply put, it isn't simply a matter of who to believe IMO, but the fact that the soldier is intent on simply killing Viconia without either allowing her the opportunity for a fair trial and/or presenting any actual evidence of her guilt.

    And incidentally, there's at least one "friendly" beholder in BG2 as well, so even monsters have exceptions to the rule.

    booinyoureyesjackjack
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    edited September 2014
    Well, according to the BG1NPC Project, where I think this encounter is from, Kivan worships Shevarash, and Shevarash is the Seldarine of Revenge, Loss, and Hatred of Drow. Ironically, one of Shevarash's allies is Shar, and we all know that Viconia is a Priestess of Shar.

    So, it would kind of look bad for Kivan to attack Viconia.

    JuliusBorisovDJKajuruSharGuidesMyHandGoodSteve
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471



    Neutral Evil:
    http://easydamus.com/neutralevil.html
    "The personal code of a neutral evil character may look like this:
    1. You shall lie to advance yourself.
    2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself.
    3. You shall kill to advance yourself.
    4. You shall not aid the weak.
    5. You shall honor those who are stronger.
    6. You shall follow the law only to advance yourself.
    7. You shall betray friends, family, community, and nation to advance yourself.
    8. You shall not aid those who protect the weak.
    9. You shall not show mercy to enemies.
    10. You shall seek unlimited power over others."

    Sound like someone we know?

    Actually, I don't think many of these things sound like Viconia at all. Remember, she's turned her back on a more suitable life in the Underdark, tries to live as a loner on the surface world, and (as her bio even states) has made some very risky choices that endanger her life - in other words, she doesn't entirely fit the mold of a "do whatever you have to do to get/stay ahead" character, like the one you're describing.


    ArdulAristilliusjackjack
  • ThatTwitchyGuyThatTwitchyGuy Member Posts: 23

    @BladeDancer‌ You seem a bit naive about Viconia. Keep in mind she is a cleric of Shar. According to Forgotten Realms Wiki "The clergy of Shar were a secretive organization that pursued subversive tactics rather than direct confrontation with its rivals" http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shar

    Also, Shar's dogma: "Consorting with the faithful of good deities is a sin except in business dealings or to corrupt them from their beliefs."

    She's literally the goddess of darkness and secrets. Her entire portfolio IS getting people to trust her in order to betray them. Viconia is blatantly worshiping an evil deity. Sure, she left Lloth, but its not like she went to worship Torm instead.

    I don't know why you would just accuse @TheGraveDigger‌ of being "in denial" and "lying". That is incredibly rude considering two things:
    1. You opnely admitted to having absolutely no idea what you are talking about since you never refused to help Drizzt
    2. You are actually wrong. In a admittedly bizarre bit of mischaracterization Bioware decided that Drizzt would attack you for simply being rude to him. Not for actively pursuing evil actions, just literally refusing to help him against gnolls he can kill in his sleep will cause him to turn hostile.

    I mean, you placed a lot of trust in her having a "good side". But we all know

    "Trust is for the foolish... and the dead"

    Trust me, him not knowing what he's talking about has never stopped him before. He likes to argue that he knows as much about the games as someone who's been playing them for ten+ years because he reads walkthroughs of it, then gets mad when people don't agree with him or show that they do know more.

    But back to the topic of Viconia, yes she is highly manipulative, using every trick she has to keep herself alive. That's her brand of Neutral evil, looking out for herself with no regard for other people.
    Her being able to change her alignment doesn't mean that she's just hiding her goodness, it's just that the PC helps her through her issues.
    I wouldn't say that she's completely, heartlessly evil, as there's an encounter with a beggar in Athkatla where she actually shows some genuine compassion. I don't think she necessarily enjoys acting the way she does, but she does what needs to be done in order to survive. She is a broken, very emotionally messed up woman, the kind you would actually meet out on the street with the "hurt everyone else before they hurt you mentality".
    So in that regard, she is evil, just not irreversibly so. Someone actually proving that they honestly care about her breaks her a bit, but I imagine that even years down the road she never completely changed. Can absolutely see her becoming the mom that would enjoy skinning a person alive just for looking at her child wrong lol.

  • BladeDancerBladeDancer Member Posts: 455
    edited September 2014
    @ThatTwitchyGuy‌ and @booinyoureyes‌

    Idealists are more capable of changing the world for the better than realists, especially when they hold on to their ideals while embracing reality. Also, you miss the point. Viconia is capable of changing for the better, even though she will deny that she is capable of making such a personality change at first, but there are bigoted characters like Kivan and Keldorn who won't give her that chance no matter what you say to convince them otherwise. Whether you side with Viconia over Kivan or Keldorn or Kivan or Keldorn over Viconia can be easily justified for good aligned characters, that's where I'm getting at, you can role play as a character who would side with the good aligned characters all the time without question or second thoughts, or be the unorthodox hero siding with some evil aligned characters believing that they have some good in them. This is what I meant when I said that I like that the Baldur's Gate characters are not portrayed in black and white, you know, good and evil in a bland way. They are complex characters capable of development for better or worse, they get you thinking things like "I know she/he killed some guy, but does she/he really deserve to die for it? It was self defense, the guy attacked first", instead of simple things like "OMG! A drow! Kill him/her, they're evil!!!" It makes the characters of the game more alive and realistic when there is more to their nature than what you see at face value.

    The main reason why she became a cleric of Shar is because she has lost a lot in her life, her brother and home, for example, living as a hunted outsider on the surface. I prefer to be a chaotic good aligned "naive" idealist instead of a bigot. I don't expect you to agree with my beliefs, it doesn't matter to me whether people like @ThatTwitchyGuy‌ believes I'm an angry BG gamer or not. In the words of Mal Reynolds from the canceled show "Firefly", "I aim to misbehave".


    I didn't claim that @TheGraveDigger‌ was lying, I was confused and unsure if he was being truthful or dishonest of Drizzt's nature, because I've read four FR books with Drizzt in it, so I pretty much intimately know his personality, and I never had the heart to refuse his calls for help, or attack him afterwards, so you should have no issues about my surprise learning that Drizzt threatens to attack you if you refuse to help him with the gnolls. The way I see it, this is one of many reasons why the game is considered non-canon to WOTC, Drizzt is no short-tempered drow who expects you to perform a good deed, he holds himself to the highest of ideals, but does not expect the same from anyone else, he is a thoughtful and sensitive character, he's alert for treachery and danger, and is a perfectionist who yearns for nothing more than to be accepted and befriended by people.

    Has the thought ever occurred to you that if Viccy really believes that trust is for the foolish and dead, why does she trust Charname, following him/her around and calling him/her "abbil", which means "comrade" or "trusted friend"? Maybe she has conflicting feelings about the ways of the drow and what is necessary to survive on the surface since not everyone is like the drow, like gaining the trust of a surfacer in order to find peace in her life? Inevitably, she ceases to remain neutral evil aligned at the end of Throne of Bhaal whether you romanced her or not.

    I haven't been playing the BG series for a long time like you vets, but understand that I'm a fast learner. I got some of the novels, sourcebooks, I read up in FR lore on the Internet, etc. Thanks to the BG:EE series, I am hooked on everything Forgotten Realms related.

    Post edited by BladeDancer on
    TheGraveDiggerNonnahswriterlunar
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    I get called worse things than a "liar" on a daily basis by my boss and his harpy wife... you should hear the things we say. But it's all fun and games.

    @BladeDancer
    I agree with your way of thinking, and reckon just about everyone has a messed up form of "good" if you dig deep enough. But you really have to dig deep with Viconia... She makes nothing easy, as most of her quotes in this thread have proved... she's always threatening people, mocking people, and being very cruel.

    She follows Charname because she knows he's stronger, like I mentioned in the Neutral Evil code...
    4. You shall not aid the weak.
    5. You shall honor those who are stronger
    If Charname was weak she'd step on you like a bug. Look at how she treats Aerie and other *weak* characters.

    My biggest problem is that people believe siding with her over Kivan is a "good" act.

    BladeDancerlunartypo_tilly
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