Not exactly an item, but they could do something with the familiars. Most of their stats are messed up or useless, and people only use them for the HP bonus.
Bob the Stinky Groundhog: He can spot traps, and has a special "Leave Droppings" ability. Anyone that steps in the droppings will fall over and be disgusted(stunned or slowed) for a few seconds.
Nessa the "Scaredy" Cat: She's very sneaky, and has a special "Hiss!" ability which causes a single enemy to flee in fear, like the Spook spell.
Boo: Very fast, very sneaky. He can "GO FOR THE EYES!", which causes temporary blindness and maybe confusion to his target.
Rabbit: It's no ordinary rabbit... It's the most foul, cruel, and bad tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
Dog or wolf for the beast master, because surely it makes more sense than a fairy dragon...
@OlvynChuru Most of your suggestions sound fun, but I really like the following:
*A bastard sword which emits an extremely weak cone of cold each time it hits. *A weapon which gains incredible hit/damage bonuses if it has slain a good-aligned character lately. *A weapon which gains a small temporary cumulative damage bonus whenever it hits someone. *A bow which fires an unlimited weaker version of Arrows of Detonation. Or it could be a lategame ToB bow which fires unlimited full-power exploding arrows. *Bullets which explode into coldballs when they hit (just the kind of weapon a necromancer would use on enemies his/her own undead horde is fighting). *A Kamikaze Kobold Figurine.
@Lord_Tansheron The first version of this item mod will have a shopkeeper that will sell the stuff for moderately high prices. Once I get a better handle on Weidu and modding in general, I plan to scatter the items among various area containers and powerful creatures' treasure hoards. My long-term plan is to mod in a couple of adventurer parties that will give players a run for their money (without cheating), and drop the items when killed. Weimer's Eclipse party from his Solaufein mod is a good benchmark of quality to aim for.
@GKL206 I agree with your 'less-is-more' point when BG1 is concerned, but BG2 (especially ToB) is all about epic levels, epic loot, epic enemies, and epic fantasy. I admit that I sometimes go overboard with weapon stats, but the main reason I'm working on this item mod is to introduce mechanics that were either glossed over by vanilla items, or never existed in the first place.
Some examples:
-armors that have shitty AC (allowing enemies to hit you all the time), but return damage -shields that have a chance to 'bash' attackers (basically just a random roll to stun them) -spears and halberds with new mechanics (AoE cleave, 2x reach, knockdown, stat-leech) -items for pure clerics (mace that cauterizes wounds, flail that heals party & harms cleric) -new rings (temporary +AC when hit, N% chance to stoneskin/disappear/ethereal on hit) -more axes/clubs/scimitars (vampiric axe, sporespewing club, disarming scimitar, etc.) -improved daggers (expanded crit threat range, expanded backstab modifier, +APR) -arcane regalia (mainhand wizard wands, offhand sorcerer runes, more ioun stones) -offhand 'books' for casters (basically shields with book icons that expand spell slots) -more gloves/gauntlets/wrists (many tailored specifically for clerics, mages, and druids) -more bows and xbows (among them, 2 *really* powerful end-game ToB-worthy ones!) -evil items (HP-flensing scimitar, soul-sucking katana, partymember-slaying spellbook) -various tattoos (ripped straight from Planescape:Torment, they bestow unique bonuses) -misc. items (Time Stop hourglass, Stoneskinning gargoyle claw, Mirror Image crystal)
@TheGraveDigger I admit I haven't really thought of familiars.
But the reason I'm probably not going to mess with them is because they're an important feature.
Modded items can be ignored if players don't like them, but messing with familiars is a whole new can of worms.
*Full Plate Mail of Missile Attraction: 15 vs missiles, -3 vs other attacks or something like that. *A weapon that sets the regeneration rate of whoever it hits to 0 (this might not be possible to mod). *A weapon which does low damage but gives whoever it hits Free Action for a certain amount of time (so it could disable an enemy who is using Haste or it could help an ally who is affected by Slow). *A weapon which deals entirely non-physical damage (it could still count as a physical damage type for purposes of determining how effective the enemy's armor is against it). *Armor which makes the wearer invisible when it is put on until the invisibility is broken (sort of like the Staff of the Magi, but less overpowered since you can't re-equip it in the middle of combat to interrupt an enemy mage's spell). *Enchanted clothing (like mage robes but for other classes as well).
I also have a question. In your mod, are you willing to modify existing items?
One thing that has always bothered me about Carsomyr is that it is a holy avenger that does more damage to innocent people than almost any other weapon in the game. Here's my idea for how its damage should work:
7 base, + 5 versus chaotic, +10 vs evil
note: I generally don't like random damage as I feel like it simply makes the game luck-based without adding anything to the game, but if you prefer random damage, it's your mod, not mine.
The random damage isn't actually THAT big of a deal. Most of the damage actually comes from static modifiers (on the weapon, +STR, class bonuses, etc.), making damage fairly consistent. The exception is backstab, where multipliers come into play and increase the min/max gaps.
As for tweaking existing items, I strongly believe that any mod that adds new items should take a long, careful look at existing items and aim for an OVERALL balance, old and new included. Otherwise you run the risk of either making either the old or the new items too good, marginalizing the others. I'm not saying that HAS to happen or that you HAVE to modify old items, but it should be given a lot of thought still.
@OlvynChuru I thought you were talking about a general overhaul of a weapon type. But messing with just a single item isn't something I set out to do. Honestly, you could tweak Carsomyr yourself, and it'd only take you a couple of seconds... a minute at best. There's no reason to wait for someone else - just download DLTCEP, and modify whatever you want to suit your perferences.
I doubt I'll be editing any of the BG2 vanilla weapons, because tweaking single items to others' specifications is somewhat useless since everyone has their own preferences, and, apart from large overhauls to existing items and/or rules (like you see in some of the more well-known mods), is kind of a pointless exercise.
@Lord_Tansheron Honestly, BG1/2 aren't really balanced games. None of the Infinity Engine ones are. If you compare any of them to online/multiplayer experiences like WoW/LoL/Dota, you'll see just how poorly their 'balance' is implemented. And that's alright, because they're single player games where the point is to mow through mountains of enemies and leave behind walls of corpses, not engage in tit-for-tat measures against human opponents where every single percentage point can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
Which is why I think it's silly to adhere to vanilla BG1/2 standards by too narrow a margin.
Sure, creating 'Hackmaster +15' which does 200dmg. per hit and has a THAC0 of +25 isn't really fun, but, on the flip side, obsessing over stats to the point of being pedantic isn't really necessary either. We all know how unbalanced some items/builds ended up, and how others were shafted (longbows come to mind here). Some spells are crap, while others are overpowered. Is a custom, thief-only dagger with +2 APR, +1 crit threat range, and +1 backstab threat range overpowered? If you compare it to vanilla daggers, sure. But, vanilla daggers suck. They're terrible, and no one uses them. So to offer an incentive that will get people playing pure-class backstabbing rogues again, why not tempt them with the aforementioned dagger?
I'm just saying that having powerful enemies dropping powerful items isn't such a bad thing.
Carsomyr is overpowered to the point of absurdity, most but people still love it.
Ditto for kensai-mages, Dragon Breath, Skull Trap, and a host of other stuff.
@Lord_Tansheron Honestly, BG1/2 aren't really balanced games. None of the Infinity Engine ones are. If you compare any of them to online/multiplayer experiences like WoW/LoL/Dota, you'll see just how poorly their 'balance' is implemented. And that's alright, because they're single player games where the point is to mow through mountains of enemies and leave behind walls of corpses, not engage in tit-for-tat measures against human opponents where every single percentage point can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
Which is why I think it's silly to adhere to vanilla BG1/2 standards by too narrow a margin.
You're right with the balance problem, but I disagree that that is something you can just accept. Game development has come a long way in the last ten years, and even single player games have a need for balance in some respect. More balance leads to more meaningful choices, because the more obviously better something is than something else, the more likely people are to go that route. Sure there's the die-hard RP people that'll use that unenchanted dagger if it fits the story, but the majority of players aren't like that. If they have the choice between ten decent long swords and one good bastard sword, guess which weapon type they're going to choose.
Sure, creating 'Hackmaster +15' which does 200dmg. per hit and has a THAC0 of +25 isn't really fun, but, on the flip side, obsessing over stats to the point of being pedantic isn't really necessary either.
That sounds a lot like a false dichotomy. There are many degrees in between your two extremes, the choice isn't between "do nothing" and "pedantic perfection". Nobody is talking about getting everything right down to the tenth decimal, but that doesn't mean that you should just not do anything instead.
Is a custom, thief-only dagger with +2 APR, +1 crit threat range, and +1 backstab threat range overpowered? If you compare it to vanilla daggers, sure. But, vanilla daggers suck. They're terrible, and no one uses them. So to offer an incentive that will get people playing pure-class backstabbing rogues again, why not tempt them with the aforementioned dagger?
What you want is CHOICES. Giving people one super amazing weapon doesn't do that, it actually does the opposite, restricting choice even more - just to something else. The fact that this new choice is a category previously underrepresented just shifts the core issue, it doesn't solve it. Every thief ever will go for that dagger and nothing else (though more than likely the fighters will, just for the OH...). You haven't created more choice, you've just made the only choice something else.
I'm just saying that having powerful enemies dropping powerful items isn't such a bad thing.
Not inherently, no. In fact, objectively speaking "power" is a problem more in regards to game difficulty than to item balance. The problem is that the power spiral caused by a lack of item balance ends up unduly decreasing the difficulty of the game - and it's already fairly easy to begin with. That's why I advocate for overall balance, including old items: so you can add new meaningful choices while keeping the overall game balance fairly equal. Consequently that means that if you want to add things more powerful than the existing items, you have to reduce overall power (old and new) if you want to keep the difficulty consistent. RELATIVE power within the item hierarchy doesn't have to change a lot.
Carsomyr is overpowered to the point of absurdity, most but people still love it.
People also love candy, but if they eat nothing else they'll end up hurting themselves. You could make the same argument for rampant cheating: people LOVE to be super powerful, so why not make them a demigod right away? Obviously because that would ultimately end up devaluing their overall experience. Powerful items function in much the same way. Carsomyr is great and awesome, but if you play with it a few times you quickly realize just how absurd it can be, and how easy it makes the game. Easy games are ultimately unrewarding, and less fun than overcoming challenges. It's just that people tend to be more reluctant to commit to a challenge, and prefer the easier but less gratifying route. If that's what you want to go with by all means, I'm sure you'll find an audience. Whether it's ultimately a good direction to go is a different matter...
I also agree that there are many VERY powerful things you can do in this game. If I was forced to play the vanilla game, I'd have stopped playing it ten years ago. I know how to kick the engine's ass and destroy enemies so thoroughly their next reincarnation will feel the pain. But that's fun once or twice, and not more. What makes BG fun for me is that mods allow me to increase the game's difficulty alongside my own growth in power. The more effective strategies I discover, the more ways modders find to up the challenge level, and make the experience more rewarding in the process.
You are completely right that some spells, items, and tactics are very powerful - and that is why I personally am using mods to curb their power. Mods like SCS or Item Revisions intentionally nerf certain aspects of my arsenal, but that is WHY I love them so much - it makes finding the new great things such a fun, rewarding experience. If all mods did was pile on and on without ever touching on the existing stuff, things would spiral out of control quickly, and the game would become boring. But with the constant balance and revision that mods provide, the BG series has managed to keep me entertained longer than any other game in the history of gaming. I strongly feel that is the right path, and I would highly recommend anyone trying to implement new mods to heed that. There is definitely room for more things, more items, spells, NPCs, etc. But they have to be done the RIGHT way if you expect things to last. If all you're looking for is two months of casual boom-boom then that's your prerogative, and ultimately your choice. I can deliver my opinion, but obviously I can't make your choice for you. And that's also a good thing ;P
I agree with everything @Lord_Tansheron said. One important thing I should add is that balancing a game can make a game much more fun if done right. Although as you said, unbalance can also make a game fun, it depends on the way the game is balanced. Baldur's Gate tends to do unbalance wrong: here's a weapon which deals X damage and has Y THAC0, and here's another weapon which is exactly the same as the other one except this one deals X+2 damage and has Y+2 THAC0. Which one will you use? Pretty much all of the weapons in Baldur's Gate 1 are the same except that some deal more damage than others or are more accurate.
What is important for gameplay is that there are as many fun, unique and viable ways to play the game as possible. Balancing a game well can help achieve this.
@Lord_Tansheron I agree with you on some points, but it seems we're on different pages here.
You're advocating item creation along the lines of vanilla BG1/2 (in order to preserve the overall feel of the game), and while there's nothing wrong with that, I'm personally more interested in exploring some new mechanics that haven't been done before, regardless of whether or not they'll unbalance the playing field and make an already easy game that much easier. Also, quite a few of the items I'll be introducing with the mod will feature immunities to various types of cheese that just frustrates and irritates (ex: "Soul Anchor"; amulet that grants immunity to Imprisonment, but 'anchors' the wearer to this plane, making them sluggish, hence a -1APR malus while worn, alongside maybe a few more minor penalties... sure, it's an extremely situational item, but so is the Mace of Disruption).
Now, someone might consider this overpowered or cheating, but I don't feel that way.
That uber dagger (that both you and I mentioned before) comes to mind.
I'm well aware of the fact that every thief and their mother (alongside a fair share of warriors, as you pointed out) would opt for it, but that's kind of the point. I mean, I've played the game countless times, and I don't want my next playthrough to consist of picking up all the same items all over again. I've done party runs, solo runs, gimped runs, poverty runs, customized 6-man multiplayer powergamer runs, and everything else under the sun (SCS, Tactics, Anvil, Tweaks, etc. etc.), and, while I still believe items shouldn't be absurdly overpowered, I really don't care if I introduce a weapon that will let players chunk enemies 15% faster than usual.
Yes, relative potency is important, and yes, in-game power hierarchies ought to be respected to a degree, but I'm not looking to make a mod that features the Mundane Wooden Club of THAC0 +1. I know some people hate anything but the purist approach, and while I can respect that (to each their own, and everything), that's not something I'm looking to replicate with this mod because it's already been done to death. Even the new items introduced by the EE version of BG2 erred on the side of caution. Where's that end-game epic +5 katana everyone's been pining for for ages now? The +6 longbow? The +4 elemental quivers? Throwable spears? Horrid-Wilting-spewing halberds? Daggers that aren't automatically flagged as low-DPS trash by every gamer worth his/her salt? Do thieves really need to suck hairy donkey balls just because we're all still slaves to a design philosophy that molded a game in the likeness of a relatively obscure tabletop product, which itself never really was all that balanced in the first place?
Derivative of a derivative, and all that...
The BG series is awesome for its writing and storyline, not its combat, which was never its strong point (hit-or-miss attacks are a dumb idea any way you spin it, and save-or-die spell mechanics even more so). In fact, the combat fluctuates between light breezy fun and rage-inducing cheese (demiliches, anyone?). Now, one can argue that everything's doable with enough persistence, and it really is, but what's the point of respecting rules and limitations that were put in place arbitrarily, and under the auspices of license-holders and corporate management, both of which saw the game itself as little more than a convenient vessel to advertise their IP? Cheese and frustration can be somewhat mitigated by a DM in a tabletop game, but not so in a rigid environment like a game engine. So we get things like combat-worthless thieves, insane difficulty spikes followed by trivially easy cakewalks, glass ceilings, artificial plateaus, brick walls during the first 1-3 levels, laughable useless HLAs (Alchemy? really? really?), and the like. If one was serious about introducing balance into BG1/2, one would need to overhaul the entire thing from the ground up.
So why not just embrace the crazy, unbalanced fun, and go with the flow?
You also mention loading your game with difficulty-enhancing mods in order to create a more engaging experience -- and more power to you for that! -- but frustration is the last thing I'm looking from when I fire up BG2. I get my fix of masochism playing Dota2 every day with vodka-addled Russians (who for some reason insist on coming to Euro servers and typing in cyrillic even though they have their own servers) that don't speak a word of English and expect others to support them while they farm for 45min. Trust me, that'll test your nerves and determination more than anything an Insane + Poverty + Solo + SCS run could throw at you.
When I play BG2, I wanna see chunks fly. The more, the merrier. Doubly so if it's accomplished via weapons that employ unique and novel ways in order to reduce virtual monsters to gory bits. So, while Hackmaster +12 probably won't be making an appearance any time soon, the Dagger of +2APR most certainly will. My only regret is that I'm nowhere nearly skilled enough to whip up a Weimer-tier Eclipse-esque battle for the player to enjoy and face off against, since that would be an excellent way of making them work for and earn the new stuff (I'm not a fan of item shops, but whatever).
All in all, I want this item mod to represent end-game inventory choices for the player.
There are plenty of SoA-worthy items that work just fine during that portion of the game.
But ToB is where it's at, and there's a serious dearth of various end-game item types.
So why not introduce a few, and revel in the gory fun?
P.S. How the heck do you quote text? I've been on this forum for months, and I still don't know how to wrap text in quotations! (
@OlvynChuru Yup, I'm doing my best to steer away from the whole +Y for +X thing.
Sure, a couple of the items resort to that, but there's a bunch more that don't.
My favorite so far is an AoE-cleaving halberd that deals sweeping damage to nearby foes.
It's so much fun watching the party's blackguard rip through throngs of enemies in a bloody rage!
And this is a true cleave effect, not the weak, misinformative HLA we were given by the vanilla game.
@Lord_Tansheron I agree with you on some points, but it seems we're on different pages here.
You're advocating item creation along the lines of vanilla BG1/2 (in order to preserve the overall feel of the game), and while there's nothing wrong with that, I'm personally more interested in exploring some new mechanics that haven't been done before, regardless of whether or not they'll unbalance the playing field and make an already easy game that much easier.
It seems we really are on very different pages, or whole different books. You seem to be jumping to conclusions quite often, which is very confusing. I am not certain how I was saying, or even just insinuating in any way, that balance means simplification, or restriction to simple core mechanics. It doesn't, in any way, shape, or form. Certainly it's more difficult to balance effects the more complex they are, but that doesn't mean you cannot balance them, or that you should not go that route. On the contrary, more complexity can add more depth (but not always), and more depth often leads to more choices (also not always) - and THAT is what we want. More choices. HOW we get there, well, that is up to the clever and creative designer to figure out. Design space is, to begin with, limitless. Balance is what confines it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room to play with. How much room, that depends on the skill of the designer. Truly great designs will leave a lot of room, and only the poor choices will end up in narrow, bland, "BG1-style" results. Sure it's hard to do this - if it wasn't, we'd all be working at games companies. I don't pretend to be able to do it, or I would. But just because I can't do it doesn't mean someone else can't, and it also doesn't mean I can't critique people's ideas based on that prospect :P
That uber dagger (that both you and I mentioned before) comes to mind.
I'm aware of the fact that every thief and their mother (alongside a fair share of warriors, as you pointed out) would opt for it, but that's kind of the point. I mean, I've played the game countless times, and I don't want my next playthrough to consist of picking up all the same items all over again. I've done party runs, solo runs, gimped runs, poverty runs, customized 6-man multiplayer powergamer runs, and everything else under the sun (SCS, Tactics, Anvil, Tweaks, etc. etc.), and, while I still believe items shouldn't be absurdly overpowered, I really don't care if I introduce a weapon that will let players chunk enemies 15% faster than usual.
You are making my case for me there. The problem you have is exactly the same as the one I have - every playthrough you tend to gravitate towards the same items, because they are so obviously better than everything else. You hate that, I hate that, everyone hates that. But what do you think will happen once you introduce your new "uber dagger"? Will you now have new exciting playthroughs every time where you don't know what you will choose? No. You do the EXACT SAME THING as before, except now you go for the same DIFFERENT weapon every time. You didn't solve the problem, you only introduced a temporary diversion that shifted the blame from one item to another. Now what you should ACTUALLY want is a situation where you have MANY items you will want to go for. Each, of course, with its own advantages and disadvantages - and by that I don't mean positive/negative item effects, I mean things like how easy/early they are to get, what class/proficiency combos they support, what synergies with other items (which may in turn be differently easy/hard to get) they offer, etc. etc. That's the design space. THAT'S where you want to be. To have, at every major stage of the game, a fairly wide variety of choices and combinations thereof. BG actually offers a lot of these factors I mentioned that go into an item's "worth". Pure item power is one thing, but it's not the only thing. Proficiencies have to be planned, as well as quest/story progression, character development, etc. These are things that are very difficult to objectively quantify and measure against each other, and they are also contingent on a wide variety of factors such as XP distribution, NPC choice, party composition, etc. etc. If you want a detailed example, check my arguments on Crom Faeyr in another thread.
Where's that end-game epic +5 katana everyone's been pining for for ages now? The +6 longbow? The +4 elemental quivers? Throwable spears? Horrid-Wilting-spewing halberds? Daggers that aren't automatically flagged as low-DPS trash by every gamer worth his/her salt?
Again, I'm not the mod police. You can do whatever you like. I'm just offering the advice that if you choose to put potentially a lot of time and effort into such a project, you should ask yourself whether it wouldn't be nicer if it had some longevity beyond two playthroughs. And trust me, after two killing sprees armed with Katanas of Wilting+5 you won't find them so fun anymore. But that doesn't mean that you can't make powerful items, or items with unique, interesting effects. I don't think that a Katana+5 is a bad idea. There is room for such a weapon at endgame, as there is for other very powerful items. But don't you think that that is a bit too narrow a perspective? What about all the time BEFORE you get those items? Why can't we have cool, unique abilities on our +2 weapons? And for that matter, why don't those +2 weapons with their cool effects last us a bit longer, instead of being immediately supplanted by +3 weapons with cool abilities the moment you step outside of Chateau Irenicus? That is the power spiral I speak of, and the overall balance. I am all for cool, unique effects. Put them in there! Make things great! But make them great in the right way. Do we need all new items for those effects, for example? Why not modify old, existing items with some of those effects? Sure, add new things here and there, but why ignore the old? If you suddenly have WeaponX with a new effect, why not make it work with an upgraded version of WeaponY, which was always in the game? Just a touch here, a touch there, and you can spruce up even that Wooden Club+1, and make it into something truly interesting.
Do thieves really need to suck hairy donkey balls just because we're all still slaves to a design philosophy that molded a game in the likeness of a relatively obscure tabletop product, which itself never really was all that balanced in the first place?
Absolutely not! I completely agree that the sometimes too-rigid adherence to PnP and RP principles can be a hindrance to the enjoyment of BG as a video game. We have no Dungeon Master to make adjustments on the fly and work with the players to customize things properly. We don't have all the flexibility and options that can be implemented into PnP nearly at will, or via some ad-hoc shortcut. BG is rigid and inflexible in its rule set, and that comes at the expense of certain aspects of design space. Work with that! Change things! I always believe that while RP has its own merits and value, there has to be a compromise somewhere between it and the game mechanics. Not every BG player is an RP player, but every BG player is a video game player.
So why not just embrace the fun, and go with the flow?
Because we have the power to change it, and while we're doing that why not do it in a way that makes things better overall? Rather than band-aid solutions, work to build something with a bit more staying power.
You also mention loading your game with difficulty-enhancing mods in order to create a more engaging experience -- and more power to you for that! -- but frustration is the last thing I'm looking from when I fire up BG2.
I think your penchant for false dichotomies is rearing its head again here... Why do you present everything as extremes? The choice isn't between "cakewalk" and "frustration". All the mods I use have a truckload of options to customize difficulty, they even go so far as to modify scripts based on in-game difficulty. Play the way you want to - but know that overcoming challenges and learning to do so can offer far greater rewards than mindlessly playing along through a game that is never actually throwing anything your way that makes you think twice about what you need to be doing.
When I play BG2, I wanna see chunks fly. The more, the merrier. Doubly so if it's accomplished via weapons that employ unique and novel ways in order to reduce virtual monsters to gory bits. So, while Hackmaster +12 probably won't be making an appearance any time soon, the Dagger of +2APR most certainly will. My only regret is that I'm nowhere nearly skilled enough to whip up an Eclipse-esque battle for the player to enjoy and face off against, since that would be an excellent way of making them work for and earn the new stuff.
You seem to be very torn. On the one hand you want to go on a pwnage-spree, on the other hand you want to face Eclipse2.0. I always found Eclipse to be one of the hardest, most grueling battles in all of BG (and loved it for it) - but you said you don't want frustration in your game. Eclipse certainly is, for anyone first encountering it. It takes tries and tries to figure things out - and it's awesome when you do. But how does that jibe with your philosophy? Would an Eclipse2.0 be actually fun if you were all decked-out in UberWeapons+5? Now before you misunderstand again, I'm not saying you have to do it with Long Swords+2 and one hand tied behind your back - I believe that the items and the encounter should both be balanced with and around each other.
All in all, I want this item mod to represent end-game inventory choices for the player.
There are plenty of SoA-worthy items that work just fine during that portion of the game.
But ToB is where it's at, and there's a serious dearth of various end-game item types.
That seems very strange to me. I always found that the actual dearth of useful, interesting items was in the EARLY game, not the end game. You have lots of powerful items to choose from in ToB, many with upgraded versions, and across many weapon types - whereas in early/mid SoA in particular you have a ton of long swords, FotA, and CF. And nothing else. Ever try to make an axe fighter? Bastard sword? Dagger? Garbage! Garbage everywhere! In ToB, sure, you got the goods - but by then you've already slogged through most of the saga.
Truly great designs will leave a lot of room, and only the poor choices will end up in narrow, bland, "BG1-style" results. Sure it's hard to do this - if it wasn't, we'd all be working at games companies. I don't pretend to be able to do it, or I would. But just because I can't do it doesn't mean someone else can't, and it also doesn't mean I can't critique people's ideas based on that prospect :P
Don't conflate my walls of text with fear of critique.
Without feedback, even the best, most accomplished mod would be worse off.
In fact, when I release this one, I'll open a thread asking for constructive criticism.
The problem you have is exactly the same as the one I have - every playthrough you tend to gravitate towards the same items, because they are so obviously better than everything else. You hate that, I hate that, everyone hates that. But what do you think will happen once you introduce your new "uber dagger"?
Well, "uber dagger" is a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I mean, there are some powerful items in the mod, but none of them are game-breaking.
The game is so easily exploitable that one doesn't really need external items to manhandle it.
And to answer your question, yes, I expect people to gravitate towards said items, but not because they overshadow all others by an order of magnitude, but because they represent a natural progression towards a more efficient murder instrument in a game which basically hinges on you murdering scores of enemies that are stupid enough to stand in your way.
Thing is, a new item doesn't have to 'overpowered' to be a tad more powerful than all the weaker ones.
But the problem with daggers specifically is that they suck so much that even a marginal upgrade overshadows the vanilla ones. That's crappy design, and I'm not really planning on spending time on rebalancing all the vanilla gear. As I said, it servers its purpose well throughout SoA, and even the starting part of ToB. Now, I can constrain myself and make somewhat less shitty daggers that won't be much better than the vanilla ones, or I can make something on par with Celestial Fury and Crom Faeyr. Would you say that either of these irrevocably break the game?
When we get down to the nitty-gritty of it, everything 'breaks the game' because everything gives you varying degrees of power within the game world. If one wanted a true challenge, one would play a naked level-1 sorcerer, and never equip any items or learn any spells save for what's mandated during the character creation scree. Anything beyond that is effectively empowering to the player, and is just a matter of degree.
Now what you should ACTUALLY want is a situation where you have MANY items you will want to go for. Each, of course, with its own advantages and disadvantages - and by that I don't mean positive/negative item effects, I mean things like how easy/early they are to get, what class/proficiency combos they support, what synergies with other items (which may in turn be differently easy/hard to get) they offer, etc. etc. That's the design space. THAT'S where you want to be. To have, at every major stage of the game, a fairly wide variety of choices and combinations thereof.
I feel you're misunderstanding me, and I'm to blame here.
I never said I wanted to make *exclusively* end-game items. While there will be some end-game stuff in the mix, the mod itself will have *plenty* of +1, +2, and +3 weaponry that's useful, but nowhere near the Dagger of +2APR. There will also be miscellaneous items, various potions, and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't fall into the Do-100-Damage-Per-Round category.
Why can't we have cool, unique abilities on our +2 weapons? And for that matter, why don't those +2 weapons with their cool effects last us a bit longer, instead of being immediately supplanted by +3 weapons with cool abilities the moment you step outside of Chateau Irenicus?
Again, my fault for not making this clearer.
There's plenty of neat +2 and +3 stuff, and most of it is unique and will fit certain playstyles and characters, and I wouldn't be surprised if people kept these things until the end-game. Especially if they're dual-wielding, and find that their off-handers give them some nifty mechanics they'd rather not replace, as off-hand weaponry are usually (though not always) buffsticks one uses mainly for their on-equip bonuses.
I am all for cool, unique effects. Put them in there! Make things great! But make them great in the right way. Do we need all new items for those effects, for example? Why not modify old, existing items with some of those effects? Sure, add new things here and there, but why ignore the old? If you suddenly have WeaponX with a new effect, why not make it work with an upgraded version of WeaponY, which was always in the game? Just a touch here, a touch there, and you can spruce up even that Wooden Club+1, and make it into something truly interesting.
I'm not gonna touch vanilla items for 3 reasons:
1) people are often turned off when a mod messes with vanilla items because it upsets 'balance'
2) everyone has their favorite item, and doesn't want anyone (least of all me) messing with it
3) I want to add new content, not polish existing one... I want to give players more choices
A good example is a lack of anything nearly resembling a useful pair of mage gloves.
My mod adds a completely new (and, hopefully, balanced) item that fills this need.
Play the way you want to - but know that overcoming challenges and learning to do so can offer far greater rewards than mindlessly playing along through a game that is never actually throwing anything your way that makes you think twice about what you need to be doing.
Oh come on, don't patronize me!
I've beaten the game with a truckload of difficulty-enhancing mods, but as I already said, it didn't really do anything for me. I did it once, and didn't really feel the need to go at it again because playing strip-the-mage's-defenses every time I run into a SCS wiz/sorc isn't my idea of a good time. Every difficulty-enhancing mod is just a gradual slide toward impotence, because each of them brings you closer to that hypothetical naked level 1 solo sorcerer playthrough. The only difference between 'difficult' and 'easy' games is just a matter of degree.
If you're really itching for a challenge, try some online games against humans.
I'm not saying BG2 can't be fun, but, at the end of the day, it's just dumb AI:
It may be fast and well-scripted, but it's still unimaginative and shallow.
You seem to be very torn. On the one hand you want to go on a pwnage-spree, on the other hand you want to face Eclipse2.0. I always found Eclipse to be one of the hardest, most grueling battles in all of BG (and loved it for it) - but you said you don't want frustration in your game. Eclipse certainly is, for anyone first encountering it. It takes tries and tries to figure things out - and it's awesome when you do. But how does that jibe with your philosophy? Would an Eclipse2.0 be actually fun if you were all decked-out in UberWeapons+5?
I'm not looking for a 'pwnage-spree' in the sense that I want everything around my party to spontaneously combust, but rather a gradual build-up of power through items that will allow underrepresented types like daggers and longbow and halberds to trigger that visceral rush of dopamines we all get when we see Celestial Fury proc its stun, or when Minsc chunks an orc and pieces go flying all over the screen.
I want that, but for every weapon type, and every character build/combination.
At its most basic, what I'm trying to do is bring to par builds and items that seem to be struggling.
You yourself often talk about powergaming parties (I read your posts in that thread, and they were spot-on), but how often do people take single-classed thieves and clerics? How often do people spec into longbows? Sift through any powergaming thread, and you'll see people complaining about the same things over and over again. People want more choices, and they want 'better' items, but that doesn't necessarily mean they want +8 Halberds and +7 Katanas. There's nothing wrong with tossing in 1 or 2 epic weapons, and a host of other weaker ones to spice up the selection.
I'm even thinking of modifying some HLAs to buff the laughably weak ones.
Because as it stands right now, the present incarnation of efficiency isn't very diverse.
It's always kensai-mage, zerker, ranger-cleric, etc., ad nauseum.
As far as the Eclipse party is concerned, that is probably my very favorite one in the entire game. It's challenging, but not cheesy. It's tough, but not demilich-tier frustrating. And they don't *all* need to have godlike items (false dichotomy?) to present a challenge -- while well equipped, only the leader would have an artifact-level item or weapon, and only because s/he represents the authority and face of such an adventuring company.
Chris Avellone (dude behind many of the Infinity Engine games) himself said that the most challenging and satisfying battles are ones where the player fights an equally-powerful and equally-equipped party, but where the enemies belonging to said party are constrained by the same rules and regulations that govern the player's characters. So if a Blackguard leading one such party happens to be wielding a +6 Halberd with a 15% chance on hit of spewing a modified Horrid Wilting, and you manage to kill him (and the rest of his lackeys) and take his weapon, then you deserve it!
And every time that halberd procs its Wilting, you'll get that dopamine rush.
Not only because it's a cool concept, but because you'll know you've earned it!
And that's what I'm trying to accomplish here - fun, but still within the realm of challenge.
Consider the following 2 items:
a) +8 Halberd with a 45% chance on hit to trigger a full-power Horrid Wilting
b) +6 Halberd with a 15% chance on hit to trigger a modified, weaker Horrid Wilting
One is clearly overpowered, while the other is not. However, both are *powerful*.
This is an important distinction to make, and one that needs to be understood!
That seems very strange to me. I always found that the actual dearth of useful, interesting items was in the EARLY game, not the end game. You have lots of powerful items to choose from in ToB, many with upgraded versions, and across many weapon types - whereas in early/mid SoA in particular you have a ton of long swords, FotA, and CF. And nothing else. Ever try to make an axe fighter? Bastard sword? Dagger? Garbage! Garbage everywhere! In ToB, sure, you got the goods - but by then you've already slogged through most of the saga.
I plan on rectifying this.
The first version of the mod will probably have all the items lumped together in a single shop.
But once I get a better handle on Weidu, I'll do my best to distribute everything across the game.
So, plenty of +1, +2, and +3 stuff throughout SoA, but with an occasional +4 or +5 thrown in.
The +6 stuff will either be dropped by powerful bosses, or stashed in a Saradush shop.
Comments
Bob the Stinky Groundhog:
He can spot traps, and has a special "Leave Droppings" ability. Anyone that steps in the droppings will fall over and be disgusted(stunned or slowed) for a few seconds.
Nessa the "Scaredy" Cat:
She's very sneaky, and has a special "Hiss!" ability which causes a single enemy to flee in fear, like the Spook spell.
Boo:
Very fast, very sneaky. He can "GO FOR THE EYES!", which causes temporary blindness and maybe confusion to his target.
Rabbit:
It's no ordinary rabbit... It's the most foul, cruel, and bad tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
Dog or wolf for the beast master, because surely it makes more sense than a fairy dragon...
Most of your suggestions sound fun, but I really like the following:
*A bastard sword which emits an extremely weak cone of cold each time it hits.
*A weapon which gains incredible hit/damage bonuses if it has slain a good-aligned character lately.
*A weapon which gains a small temporary cumulative damage bonus whenever it hits someone.
*A bow which fires an unlimited weaker version of Arrows of Detonation. Or it could be a lategame ToB bow which fires unlimited full-power exploding arrows.
*Bullets which explode into coldballs when they hit (just the kind of weapon a necromancer would use on enemies his/her own undead horde is fighting).
*A Kamikaze Kobold Figurine.
@Lord_Tansheron
The first version of this item mod will have a shopkeeper that will sell the stuff for moderately high prices. Once I get a better handle on Weidu and modding in general, I plan to scatter the items among various area containers and powerful creatures' treasure hoards. My long-term plan is to mod in a couple of adventurer parties that will give players a run for their money (without cheating), and drop the items when killed. Weimer's Eclipse party from his Solaufein mod is a good benchmark of quality to aim for.
@GKL206
I agree with your 'less-is-more' point when BG1 is concerned, but BG2 (especially ToB) is all about epic levels, epic loot, epic enemies, and epic fantasy. I admit that I sometimes go overboard with weapon stats, but the main reason I'm working on this item mod is to introduce mechanics that were either glossed over by vanilla items, or never existed in the first place.
Some examples:
-armors that have shitty AC (allowing enemies to hit you all the time), but return damage
-shields that have a chance to 'bash' attackers (basically just a random roll to stun them)
-spears and halberds with new mechanics (AoE cleave, 2x reach, knockdown, stat-leech)
-items for pure clerics (mace that cauterizes wounds, flail that heals party & harms cleric)
-new rings (temporary +AC when hit, N% chance to stoneskin/disappear/ethereal on hit)
-more axes/clubs/scimitars (vampiric axe, sporespewing club, disarming scimitar, etc.)
-improved daggers (expanded crit threat range, expanded backstab modifier, +APR)
-arcane regalia (mainhand wizard wands, offhand sorcerer runes, more ioun stones)
-offhand 'books' for casters (basically shields with book icons that expand spell slots)
-more gloves/gauntlets/wrists (many tailored specifically for clerics, mages, and druids)
-more bows and xbows (among them, 2 *really* powerful end-game ToB-worthy ones!)
-evil items (HP-flensing scimitar, soul-sucking katana, partymember-slaying spellbook)
-various tattoos (ripped straight from Planescape:Torment, they bestow unique bonuses)
-misc. items (Time Stop hourglass, Stoneskinning gargoyle claw, Mirror Image crystal)
@TheGraveDigger
I admit I haven't really thought of familiars.
But the reason I'm probably not going to mess with them is because they're an important feature.
Modded items can be ignored if players don't like them, but messing with familiars is a whole new can of worms.
*Full Plate Mail of Missile Attraction: 15 vs missiles, -3 vs other attacks or something like that.
*A weapon that sets the regeneration rate of whoever it hits to 0 (this might not be possible to mod).
*A weapon which does low damage but gives whoever it hits Free Action for a certain amount of time (so it could disable an enemy who is using Haste or it could help an ally who is affected by Slow).
*A weapon which deals entirely non-physical damage (it could still count as a physical damage type for purposes of determining how effective the enemy's armor is against it).
*Armor which makes the wearer invisible when it is put on until the invisibility is broken (sort of like the Staff of the Magi, but less overpowered since you can't re-equip it in the middle of combat to interrupt an enemy mage's spell).
*Enchanted clothing (like mage robes but for other classes as well).
I also have a question. In your mod, are you willing to modify existing items?
I haven't really thought about modifying existing items, but I guess I could tweak a few.
What exactly did you have in mind?
One thing that has always bothered me about Carsomyr is that it is a holy avenger that does more damage to innocent people than almost any other weapon in the game. Here's my idea for how its damage should work:
7 base, + 5 versus chaotic, +10 vs evil
note: I generally don't like random damage as I feel like it simply makes the game luck-based without adding anything to the game, but if you prefer random damage, it's your mod, not mine.
This is just one example.
As for tweaking existing items, I strongly believe that any mod that adds new items should take a long, careful look at existing items and aim for an OVERALL balance, old and new included. Otherwise you run the risk of either making either the old or the new items too good, marginalizing the others. I'm not saying that HAS to happen or that you HAVE to modify old items, but it should be given a lot of thought still.
I thought you were talking about a general overhaul of a weapon type. But messing with just a single item isn't something I set out to do. Honestly, you could tweak Carsomyr yourself, and it'd only take you a couple of seconds... a minute at best. There's no reason to wait for someone else - just download DLTCEP, and modify whatever you want to suit your perferences.
I doubt I'll be editing any of the BG2 vanilla weapons, because tweaking single items to others' specifications is somewhat useless since everyone has their own preferences, and, apart from large overhauls to existing items and/or rules (like you see in some of the more well-known mods), is kind of a pointless exercise.
@Lord_Tansheron
Honestly, BG1/2 aren't really balanced games. None of the Infinity Engine ones are. If you compare any of them to online/multiplayer experiences like WoW/LoL/Dota, you'll see just how poorly their 'balance' is implemented. And that's alright, because they're single player games where the point is to mow through mountains of enemies and leave behind walls of corpses, not engage in tit-for-tat measures against human opponents where every single percentage point can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
Which is why I think it's silly to adhere to vanilla BG1/2 standards by too narrow a margin.
Sure, creating 'Hackmaster +15' which does 200dmg. per hit and has a THAC0 of +25 isn't really fun, but, on the flip side, obsessing over stats to the point of being pedantic isn't really necessary either. We all know how unbalanced some items/builds ended up, and how others were shafted (longbows come to mind here). Some spells are crap, while others are overpowered. Is a custom, thief-only dagger with +2 APR, +1 crit threat range, and +1 backstab threat range overpowered? If you compare it to vanilla daggers, sure. But, vanilla daggers suck. They're terrible, and no one uses them. So to offer an incentive that will get people playing pure-class backstabbing rogues again, why not tempt them with the aforementioned dagger?
I'm just saying that having powerful enemies dropping powerful items isn't such a bad thing.
Carsomyr is overpowered to the point of absurdity, most but people still love it.
Ditto for kensai-mages, Dragon Breath, Skull Trap, and a host of other stuff.
I also agree that there are many VERY powerful things you can do in this game. If I was forced to play the vanilla game, I'd have stopped playing it ten years ago. I know how to kick the engine's ass and destroy enemies so thoroughly their next reincarnation will feel the pain. But that's fun once or twice, and not more. What makes BG fun for me is that mods allow me to increase the game's difficulty alongside my own growth in power. The more effective strategies I discover, the more ways modders find to up the challenge level, and make the experience more rewarding in the process.
You are completely right that some spells, items, and tactics are very powerful - and that is why I personally am using mods to curb their power. Mods like SCS or Item Revisions intentionally nerf certain aspects of my arsenal, but that is WHY I love them so much - it makes finding the new great things such a fun, rewarding experience. If all mods did was pile on and on without ever touching on the existing stuff, things would spiral out of control quickly, and the game would become boring. But with the constant balance and revision that mods provide, the BG series has managed to keep me entertained longer than any other game in the history of gaming. I strongly feel that is the right path, and I would highly recommend anyone trying to implement new mods to heed that. There is definitely room for more things, more items, spells, NPCs, etc. But they have to be done the RIGHT way if you expect things to last. If all you're looking for is two months of casual boom-boom then that's your prerogative, and ultimately your choice. I can deliver my opinion, but obviously I can't make your choice for you. And that's also a good thing ;P
I agree with everything @Lord_Tansheron said. One important thing I should add is that balancing a game can make a game much more fun if done right. Although as you said, unbalance can also make a game fun, it depends on the way the game is balanced. Baldur's Gate tends to do unbalance wrong: here's a weapon which deals X damage and has Y THAC0, and here's another weapon which is exactly the same as the other one except this one deals X+2 damage and has Y+2 THAC0. Which one will you use? Pretty much all of the weapons in Baldur's Gate 1 are the same except that some deal more damage than others or are more accurate.
What is important for gameplay is that there are as many fun, unique and viable ways to play the game as possible. Balancing a game well can help achieve this.
I agree with you on some points, but it seems we're on different pages here.
You're advocating item creation along the lines of vanilla BG1/2 (in order to preserve the overall feel of the game), and while there's nothing wrong with that, I'm personally more interested in exploring some new mechanics that haven't been done before, regardless of whether or not they'll unbalance the playing field and make an already easy game that much easier. Also, quite a few of the items I'll be introducing with the mod will feature immunities to various types of cheese that just frustrates and irritates (ex: "Soul Anchor"; amulet that grants immunity to Imprisonment, but 'anchors' the wearer to this plane, making them sluggish, hence a -1APR malus while worn, alongside maybe a few more minor penalties... sure, it's an extremely situational item, but so is the Mace of Disruption).
Now, someone might consider this overpowered or cheating, but I don't feel that way.
That uber dagger (that both you and I mentioned before) comes to mind.
I'm well aware of the fact that every thief and their mother (alongside a fair share of warriors, as you pointed out) would opt for it, but that's kind of the point. I mean, I've played the game countless times, and I don't want my next playthrough to consist of picking up all the same items all over again. I've done party runs, solo runs, gimped runs, poverty runs, customized 6-man multiplayer powergamer runs, and everything else under the sun (SCS, Tactics, Anvil, Tweaks, etc. etc.), and, while I still believe items shouldn't be absurdly overpowered, I really don't care if I introduce a weapon that will let players chunk enemies 15% faster than usual.
Yes, relative potency is important, and yes, in-game power hierarchies ought to be respected to a degree, but I'm not looking to make a mod that features the Mundane Wooden Club of THAC0 +1. I know some people hate anything but the purist approach, and while I can respect that (to each their own, and everything), that's not something I'm looking to replicate with this mod because it's already been done to death. Even the new items introduced by the EE version of BG2 erred on the side of caution. Where's that end-game epic +5 katana everyone's been pining for for ages now? The +6 longbow? The +4 elemental quivers? Throwable spears? Horrid-Wilting-spewing halberds? Daggers that aren't automatically flagged as low-DPS trash by every gamer worth his/her salt? Do thieves really need to suck hairy donkey balls just because we're all still slaves to a design philosophy that molded a game in the likeness of a relatively obscure tabletop product, which itself never really was all that balanced in the first place?
Derivative of a derivative, and all that...
The BG series is awesome for its writing and storyline, not its combat, which was never its strong point (hit-or-miss attacks are a dumb idea any way you spin it, and save-or-die spell mechanics even more so). In fact, the combat fluctuates between light breezy fun and rage-inducing cheese (demiliches, anyone?). Now, one can argue that everything's doable with enough persistence, and it really is, but what's the point of respecting rules and limitations that were put in place arbitrarily, and under the auspices of license-holders and corporate management, both of which saw the game itself as little more than a convenient vessel to advertise their IP? Cheese and frustration can be somewhat mitigated by a DM in a tabletop game, but not so in a rigid environment like a game engine. So we get things like combat-worthless thieves, insane difficulty spikes followed by trivially easy cakewalks, glass ceilings, artificial plateaus, brick walls during the first 1-3 levels, laughable useless HLAs (Alchemy? really? really?), and the like. If one was serious about introducing balance into BG1/2, one would need to overhaul the entire thing from the ground up.
So why not just embrace the crazy, unbalanced fun, and go with the flow?
You also mention loading your game with difficulty-enhancing mods in order to create a more engaging experience -- and more power to you for that! -- but frustration is the last thing I'm looking from when I fire up BG2. I get my fix of masochism playing Dota2 every day with vodka-addled Russians (who for some reason insist on coming to Euro servers and typing in cyrillic even though they have their own servers) that don't speak a word of English and expect others to support them while they farm for 45min. Trust me, that'll test your nerves and determination more than anything an Insane + Poverty + Solo + SCS run could throw at you.
When I play BG2, I wanna see chunks fly. The more, the merrier. Doubly so if it's accomplished via weapons that employ unique and novel ways in order to reduce virtual monsters to gory bits. So, while Hackmaster +12 probably won't be making an appearance any time soon, the Dagger of +2APR most certainly will. My only regret is that I'm nowhere nearly skilled enough to whip up a Weimer-tier Eclipse-esque battle for the player to enjoy and face off against, since that would be an excellent way of making them work for and earn the new stuff (I'm not a fan of item shops, but whatever).
All in all, I want this item mod to represent end-game inventory choices for the player.
There are plenty of SoA-worthy items that work just fine during that portion of the game.
But ToB is where it's at, and there's a serious dearth of various end-game item types.
So why not introduce a few, and revel in the gory fun?
P.S. How the heck do you quote text? I've been on this forum for months, and I still don't know how to wrap text in quotations!
@OlvynChuru
Yup, I'm doing my best to steer away from the whole +Y for +X thing.
Sure, a couple of the items resort to that, but there's a bunch more that don't.
My favorite so far is an AoE-cleaving halberd that deals sweeping damage to nearby foes.
It's so much fun watching the party's blackguard rip through throngs of enemies in a bloody rage!
And this is a true cleave effect, not the weak, misinformative HLA we were given by the vanilla game.
Certainly it's more difficult to balance effects the more complex they are, but that doesn't mean you cannot balance them, or that you should not go that route. On the contrary, more complexity can add more depth (but not always), and more depth often leads to more choices (also not always) - and THAT is what we want. More choices. HOW we get there, well, that is up to the clever and creative designer to figure out. Design space is, to begin with, limitless. Balance is what confines it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room to play with. How much room, that depends on the skill of the designer. Truly great designs will leave a lot of room, and only the poor choices will end up in narrow, bland, "BG1-style" results. Sure it's hard to do this - if it wasn't, we'd all be working at games companies. I don't pretend to be able to do it, or I would. But just because I can't do it doesn't mean someone else can't, and it also doesn't mean I can't critique people's ideas based on that prospect :P
You are making my case for me there. The problem you have is exactly the same as the one I have - every playthrough you tend to gravitate towards the same items, because they are so obviously better than everything else. You hate that, I hate that, everyone hates that. But what do you think will happen once you introduce your new "uber dagger"? Will you now have new exciting playthroughs every time where you don't know what you will choose? No. You do the EXACT SAME THING as before, except now you go for the same DIFFERENT weapon every time. You didn't solve the problem, you only introduced a temporary diversion that shifted the blame from one item to another.
Now what you should ACTUALLY want is a situation where you have MANY items you will want to go for. Each, of course, with its own advantages and disadvantages - and by that I don't mean positive/negative item effects, I mean things like how easy/early they are to get, what class/proficiency combos they support, what synergies with other items (which may in turn be differently easy/hard to get) they offer, etc. etc. That's the design space. THAT'S where you want to be. To have, at every major stage of the game, a fairly wide variety of choices and combinations thereof.
BG actually offers a lot of these factors I mentioned that go into an item's "worth". Pure item power is one thing, but it's not the only thing. Proficiencies have to be planned, as well as quest/story progression, character development, etc. These are things that are very difficult to objectively quantify and measure against each other, and they are also contingent on a wide variety of factors such as XP distribution, NPC choice, party composition, etc. etc. If you want a detailed example, check my arguments on Crom Faeyr in another thread.
Again, I'm not the mod police. You can do whatever you like. I'm just offering the advice that if you choose to put potentially a lot of time and effort into such a project, you should ask yourself whether it wouldn't be nicer if it had some longevity beyond two playthroughs. And trust me, after two killing sprees armed with Katanas of Wilting+5 you won't find them so fun anymore. But that doesn't mean that you can't make powerful items, or items with unique, interesting effects. I don't think that a Katana+5 is a bad idea. There is room for such a weapon at endgame, as there is for other very powerful items. But don't you think that that is a bit too narrow a perspective? What about all the time BEFORE you get those items? Why can't we have cool, unique abilities on our +2 weapons? And for that matter, why don't those +2 weapons with their cool effects last us a bit longer, instead of being immediately supplanted by +3 weapons with cool abilities the moment you step outside of Chateau Irenicus? That is the power spiral I speak of, and the overall balance.
I am all for cool, unique effects. Put them in there! Make things great! But make them great in the right way. Do we need all new items for those effects, for example? Why not modify old, existing items with some of those effects? Sure, add new things here and there, but why ignore the old? If you suddenly have WeaponX with a new effect, why not make it work with an upgraded version of WeaponY, which was always in the game? Just a touch here, a touch there, and you can spruce up even that Wooden Club+1, and make it into something truly interesting.
Absolutely not! I completely agree that the sometimes too-rigid adherence to PnP and RP principles can be a hindrance to the enjoyment of BG as a video game. We have no Dungeon Master to make adjustments on the fly and work with the players to customize things properly. We don't have all the flexibility and options that can be implemented into PnP nearly at will, or via some ad-hoc shortcut. BG is rigid and inflexible in its rule set, and that comes at the expense of certain aspects of design space. Work with that! Change things! I always believe that while RP has its own merits and value, there has to be a compromise somewhere between it and the game mechanics. Not every BG player is an RP player, but every BG player is a video game player. Because we have the power to change it, and while we're doing that why not do it in a way that makes things better overall? Rather than band-aid solutions, work to build something with a bit more staying power. I think your penchant for false dichotomies is rearing its head again here... Why do you present everything as extremes? The choice isn't between "cakewalk" and "frustration". All the mods I use have a truckload of options to customize difficulty, they even go so far as to modify scripts based on in-game difficulty. Play the way you want to - but know that overcoming challenges and learning to do so can offer far greater rewards than mindlessly playing along through a game that is never actually throwing anything your way that makes you think twice about what you need to be doing. You seem to be very torn. On the one hand you want to go on a pwnage-spree, on the other hand you want to face Eclipse2.0. I always found Eclipse to be one of the hardest, most grueling battles in all of BG (and loved it for it) - but you said you don't want frustration in your game. Eclipse certainly is, for anyone first encountering it. It takes tries and tries to figure things out - and it's awesome when you do. But how does that jibe with your philosophy? Would an Eclipse2.0 be actually fun if you were all decked-out in UberWeapons+5? Now before you misunderstand again, I'm not saying you have to do it with Long Swords+2 and one hand tied behind your back - I believe that the items and the encounter should both be balanced with and around each other. That seems very strange to me. I always found that the actual dearth of useful, interesting items was in the EARLY game, not the end game. You have lots of powerful items to choose from in ToB, many with upgraded versions, and across many weapon types - whereas in early/mid SoA in particular you have a ton of long swords, FotA, and CF. And nothing else. Ever try to make an axe fighter? Bastard sword? Dagger? Garbage! Garbage everywhere! In ToB, sure, you got the goods - but by then you've already slogged through most of the saga.
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Without feedback, even the best, most accomplished mod would be worse off.
In fact, when I release this one, I'll open a thread asking for constructive criticism.
Well, "uber dagger" is a bit hyperbolic, don't you think?
I mean, there are some powerful items in the mod, but none of them are game-breaking.
The game is so easily exploitable that one doesn't really need external items to manhandle it.
And to answer your question, yes, I expect people to gravitate towards said items, but not because they overshadow all others by an order of magnitude, but because they represent a natural progression towards a more efficient murder instrument in a game which basically hinges on you murdering scores of enemies that are stupid enough to stand in your way.
Thing is, a new item doesn't have to 'overpowered' to be a tad more powerful than all the weaker ones.
But the problem with daggers specifically is that they suck so much that even a marginal upgrade overshadows the vanilla ones. That's crappy design, and I'm not really planning on spending time on rebalancing all the vanilla gear. As I said, it servers its purpose well throughout SoA, and even the starting part of ToB. Now, I can constrain myself and make somewhat less shitty daggers that won't be much better than the vanilla ones, or I can make something on par with Celestial Fury and Crom Faeyr. Would you say that either of these irrevocably break the game?
When we get down to the nitty-gritty of it, everything 'breaks the game' because everything gives you varying degrees of power within the game world. If one wanted a true challenge, one would play a naked level-1 sorcerer, and never equip any items or learn any spells save for what's mandated during the character creation scree. Anything beyond that is effectively empowering to the player, and is just a matter of degree.
I feel you're misunderstanding me, and I'm to blame here.
I never said I wanted to make *exclusively* end-game items. While there will be some end-game stuff in the mix, the mod itself will have *plenty* of +1, +2, and +3 weaponry that's useful, but nowhere near the Dagger of +2APR. There will also be miscellaneous items, various potions, and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't fall into the Do-100-Damage-Per-Round category.
Link? I'd be really interested in reading this.
Again, my fault for not making this clearer.
There's plenty of neat +2 and +3 stuff, and most of it is unique and will fit certain playstyles and characters, and I wouldn't be surprised if people kept these things until the end-game. Especially if they're dual-wielding, and find that their off-handers give them some nifty mechanics they'd rather not replace, as off-hand weaponry are usually (though not always) buffsticks one uses mainly for their on-equip bonuses.
I'm not gonna touch vanilla items for 3 reasons:
1) people are often turned off when a mod messes with vanilla items because it upsets 'balance'
2) everyone has their favorite item, and doesn't want anyone (least of all me) messing with it
3) I want to add new content, not polish existing one... I want to give players more choices
A good example is a lack of anything nearly resembling a useful pair of mage gloves.
My mod adds a completely new (and, hopefully, balanced) item that fills this need.
Oh come on, don't patronize me!
I've beaten the game with a truckload of difficulty-enhancing mods, but as I already said, it didn't really do anything for me. I did it once, and didn't really feel the need to go at it again because playing strip-the-mage's-defenses every time I run into a SCS wiz/sorc isn't my idea of a good time. Every difficulty-enhancing mod is just a gradual slide toward impotence, because each of them brings you closer to that hypothetical naked level 1 solo sorcerer playthrough. The only difference between 'difficult' and 'easy' games is just a matter of degree.
If you're really itching for a challenge, try some online games against humans.
I'm not saying BG2 can't be fun, but, at the end of the day, it's just dumb AI:
It may be fast and well-scripted, but it's still unimaginative and shallow.
I'm not looking for a 'pwnage-spree' in the sense that I want everything around my party to spontaneously combust, but rather a gradual build-up of power through items that will allow underrepresented types like daggers and longbow and halberds to trigger that visceral rush of dopamines we all get when we see Celestial Fury proc its stun, or when Minsc chunks an orc and pieces go flying all over the screen.
I want that, but for every weapon type, and every character build/combination.
At its most basic, what I'm trying to do is bring to par builds and items that seem to be struggling.
You yourself often talk about powergaming parties (I read your posts in that thread, and they were spot-on), but how often do people take single-classed thieves and clerics? How often do people spec into longbows? Sift through any powergaming thread, and you'll see people complaining about the same things over and over again. People want more choices, and they want 'better' items, but that doesn't necessarily mean they want +8 Halberds and +7 Katanas. There's nothing wrong with tossing in 1 or 2 epic weapons, and a host of other weaker ones to spice up the selection.
I'm even thinking of modifying some HLAs to buff the laughably weak ones.
Because as it stands right now, the present incarnation of efficiency isn't very diverse.
It's always kensai-mage, zerker, ranger-cleric, etc., ad nauseum.
As far as the Eclipse party is concerned, that is probably my very favorite one in the entire game. It's challenging, but not cheesy. It's tough, but not demilich-tier frustrating. And they don't *all* need to have godlike items (false dichotomy?) to present a challenge -- while well equipped, only the leader would have an artifact-level item or weapon, and only because s/he represents the authority and face of such an adventuring company.
Chris Avellone (dude behind many of the Infinity Engine games) himself said that the most challenging and satisfying battles are ones where the player fights an equally-powerful and equally-equipped party, but where the enemies belonging to said party are constrained by the same rules and regulations that govern the player's characters. So if a Blackguard leading one such party happens to be wielding a +6 Halberd with a 15% chance on hit of spewing a modified Horrid Wilting, and you manage to kill him (and the rest of his lackeys) and take his weapon, then you deserve it!
And every time that halberd procs its Wilting, you'll get that dopamine rush.
Not only because it's a cool concept, but because you'll know you've earned it!
And that's what I'm trying to accomplish here - fun, but still within the realm of challenge.
Consider the following 2 items:
a) +8 Halberd with a 45% chance on hit to trigger a full-power Horrid Wilting
b) +6 Halberd with a 15% chance on hit to trigger a modified, weaker Horrid Wilting
One is clearly overpowered, while the other is not. However, both are *powerful*.
This is an important distinction to make, and one that needs to be understood!
I plan on rectifying this.
The first version of the mod will probably have all the items lumped together in a single shop.
But once I get a better handle on Weidu, I'll do my best to distribute everything across the game.
So, plenty of +1, +2, and +3 stuff throughout SoA, but with an occasional +4 or +5 thrown in.
The +6 stuff will either be dropped by powerful bosses, or stashed in a Saradush shop.
I'll shoot you a PM when I upload it