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Ascension

2

Comments

  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,031
    edited October 2014
    Cuv said:

    I understand how you feel, but that is really not how it went down and that is exactly what David Gaider didn't want to be said. (Don't worry, I feel the same but the mod was based on some forum conversations/ideas and not some leftover plan). So will give you a 'like' even though I disagree with your evidence :)

    Here's the thing, at the time it was in development, it was actively talked about on the BIS boards and some people were doing testing and allowed to comment on the forums about it. So there were many threads saying this is 'how the ending should have been'. Pity I don't have any of those threads archived and the whole forum is gone now. Probably some other people here who remember this stuff and were there too.

    As for why it wasn't included in BG2:EE for release, well that was a decision based on some polls that were heavily split and wasn't time contraints - all I can say about that.

    Perhaps we have some misunderstanding. I did not mean to imply that Ascension was based on some leftover plans or ideas from the BG2 design team. I understand that it is David Gaider's work and even integrates ideas from the community who helped out with the mod.

    All I'm saying is that:
    1) David Gaider and perhaps other members of the ToB design team felt the ending wasn't all it could have been due to time constraints
    2) David Gaider wished for a more fully realized ending
    3) Ascension is his offering of such an ending

    This is almost word-for-word what he says in the README. As I argued the disclaimers in 1) and 2) aim to discharge Bioware from any responsibility towards the mod and don't forbid anyone from thinking that ToB would have been a better game, and closer to the designer's wishes, with Ascension as the ending. This doesn't require that the designers had any concrete plans for something like Ascension, but that they would have had such plans if time had allowed for it.

    I'm aware that I'm not mounting a very convincing case that Ascension should be the default ending, but at least I'm showing that we're allowed to think that. And that BG2:EE legitimately could have included it, and that arguably that would have made it a better game.

    I find very puzzling that you say the decision was based on poll results. First it should be your choice as a design team, you're the competent authority to decide whether that's good for the game or not. Secondly if we're referring to the poll I started (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5418/should-bg2-ee-include-the-ascension-mod-by-david-gaider/p1), 67% voted yes (71% if you count the "only certain components") which is an impressive majority considering that integrating Ascension is no trivial modification to the game. Anyway, it's fine if you don't want to discuss your internal decisions further and I'm not questioning your competence. Just not sure I understand what you meant by that.

    Much respect.

    Cuvshawne
  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,530
    @Zeckul Ah yeah, did misunderstand you. You are totally right about that :)



    Guess I should clear up my comment about the polls a bit for everyone: There were other considerations too that I am not allowed to talk about at this time with regards to that decision. Sorry if I gave the impression that it was based on public polls only. There were many convincing arguments 'for' and 'against' both publically and internally. We DO discuss stuff internally ya know :)

    Will see if I can find any more fun tidbits on Ascension development.

    JuliusBorisovShinZeckul
  • MrSextonMrSexton Member Posts: 366
    @Cuv In your opinion, how many man hours would be needed to integrate the Ascension ending to BGIIEE?
    I never played the mod, but from what I've read it seems excellent and as far as extra content, this would have been a great addition to the game. If we all send a crate of beer to OG, will they change their minds? :D /J

    Cuv
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,335
    I have it on good authority that any Ascension-BG2EE integration would involve use of the serial comma. n.n Everyone should use the serial comma. :u

    CuvCrevsDaak
  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,530
    That is a good question @MrSexton :) I have been trying to figure that out myself - I did some work on it already (in my free time), but there is still more to do. ie: For BP2 and Dorn we have an updated Detectable Spells component in BG2:EE so that should really be incorporated into the compatibility. That is not to say that it won't work with the current DS, but ideally all that should be updated. When I have a real estimate, will come back and let you know.

    I'm sure the bosses would love a crate of beer, but doubtful it will sway decisions :) And just a note about my comments here - even I don't know how all the decisions are made, so don't try to read too much into my words :) I am not trying to cleverly throw you hints, I either don't know or can't talk about some stuff at all.

    JuliusBorisovelminster
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 419
    While it seems a bit unfair to DavidW, perhaps the optimal solution would be to integrate Ascension into SCS? We could send him beer if it would help?

    ArdulCrevsDaak
  • SedSed Member Posts: 788
    Just let @Cuv point you in the right direction and you can do all the dirty work @DavidW‌ ;)

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 15,110
    DavidW said:

    I would be very happy to code an EE version of Ascension and/or incorporate it as an SCS component (as and when I have time), but ONLY if that's what Cuv wanted. It's his mod (or rather, he's its last remaining active custodian). And so far as I understand it he'd rather do it himself, which is totally his prerogative.

    "Show of hands" for DavidW making it! This can provide the fastest option for all of us :)

    shawneGotural
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I just want a fully compatible version of Ascension to come out. I still haven't played ToB.

    shawneCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    @Eudaemonium‌ From what I understand the BP Ascension is perfectly compatible and playable. It might be a bit more complicated to install, but not overly so. Not sure how well it integrates with the new EE content (i.e. the new chars), but I'll find out soon. Almost there ;)

    CuvJuliusBorisov
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199

    @Eudaemonium‌ From what I understand the BP Ascension is perfectly compatible and playable. It might be a bit more complicated to install, but not overly so. Not sure how well it integrates with the new EE content (i.e. the new chars), but I'll find out soon. Almost there ;)

    I'm curious as to how well it integrates. Does the new character content still work, for example, or does installing BP Ascension introduce bugs? I kind of assumed there must be some kind of compatibility issues otherwise Cuv wouldn't need to have spent over a year editing it. I play an evil party 9/10, so having Hexxat and Dorn's content not work properly is kind of a deal breaker.

  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,031
    I'm a bit confused about that myself. If BP Ascension is perfectly fine why is there still any talk of adapting Ascension for BG2:EE?

    Anyway, now that BG2:EE is out I strongly doubt Ascension will ever make it in a patch - that would be one hell of a patch! But it would sure make me very happy ;)

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited October 2014
    @Zeckul: While there hasn't been any focused beta-testing of BP-Ascension, I definitely recall at least one major gamebreaker being reported on the forum: some of the Five (Sendai and Abazigal, I think) can't be killed on account of a glitch in their death scripts. It can be worked around with the console and some override files, but... not ideal.

    CuvJuliusBorisov
  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,530
    Like I said, while BP Ascension is fine - it doesn't account for any of the new NPC's, nor does it make use of the newer Detectable Spells in BG2:EE. Nor does it account for the new engine code that already got into BG:EE 1.3 patch which is still in progress for BG2:EE some of which can really help to make Ascension smoother and better I think :)

    And yeah, need to get check out that gamebreaker bug and see if its BP only or what.

    elminsterErgCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,290
    edited October 2014
    bengoshi said:

    DavidW said:

    I would be very happy to code an EE version of Ascension and/or incorporate it as an SCS component (as and when I have time), but ONLY if that's what Cuv wanted. It's his mod (or rather, he's its last remaining active custodian). And so far as I understand it he'd rather do it himself, which is totally his prerogative.

    "Show of hands" for DavidW making it! This can provide the fastest option for all of us :)
    Not to be a buzzkill, and definitenly not to suggest that @DavidW shouldn't do what he feels like doing, but isn't both SCS and Wheels of Prophecy (even if the former seems to be presently worked on by members of G3) still in need of some tweaking?

    Erg
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    edited October 2014
    Shin said:

    Not to be a buzzkill, and definitenly not to suggest that @DavidW shouldn't do what he feels like doing, but isn't both SCS and Wheels of Prophecy (even if the former seems to be presently worked on by members of G3) still in need of some tweaking?

    Yep, I know that @DavidW has been extremely busy, so I don't blame him, but, if I'm not mistaken, the current version of SCS doesn't even install on Tutu (v21 works fine though) and there are some bugs to fix on the enhanced editions too.

    CuvCrevsDaak
  • zenblackzenblack Member Posts: 84
    Quite abit of busy work for SCS v28 has been recently done by a few users. A ton of fixes work functionally in BG2:EE. If this gives DavidW an increased desire to update SCS sooner, then the better.

    CuvCrevsDaak
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,870
    I think @DavidW‌ is coming with some kind of December offensive that will patch everything up for SCS:) Maybe, with @Cuv's blessing, they will be able to tackle Ascension as well, before David go on annual hiatus:) Finger crossed. With Ascension, and IR and SR coming - I'm finally good go go:) So close to actually start playing the game, not just translating:)

    CuvArdulJuliusBorisov
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    Reading about Ascension, Wheels of Prophecy and SCS, I actually think Ascension should be integrated with Wheels of Prophecy, not SCS. Wheels of Prophecy already reuses one or two bits of Ascension in any case.

    SCS can then provide optional tactical enhancements to Ascension (like it already does).

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,290

    Reading about Ascension, Wheels of Prophecy and SCS, I actually think Ascension should be integrated with Wheels of Prophecy, not SCS. Wheels of Prophecy already reuses one or two bits of Ascension in any case.

    SCS can then provide optional tactical enhancements to Ascension (like it already does).

    Aye.. at any rate Ascension integration might solve the apparent issues with Wheels of Prophecy in the EE.

    JuliusBorisov
  • TvrtkoSvrdlarTvrtkoSvrdlar Member Posts: 353
    @Cahir‌
    What are 'IR' and 'SR'?

    @Lord_Tansheron
    Looks like Christmans is coming early this year! :D

    @Shin‌
    Seconding this.

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,290

    @Cahir‌
    What are 'IR' and 'SR'?

    Item and Spell Revisions.

    ArdulJuliusBorisov
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 419
    I honestly don't know what sort of developer DavidW is, although 'awesome' springs to mind :D That said, he sounds pretty busy, and while the old saying 'If you want something done, give it to a busy person' is pretty accurate, nevertheless, ..

    Well, I'm half of a pair of developers, and unfortunately I'm the one that adds 80% of the bugs. Yes I also add loads of cool and fun features, but my partner typically gets to pick up the pieces after I think I'm done. 'Cowboy coder' is not completely inappropriate.

    My point is .. well, Ascension has issues. It's a long fight, possibly the longest in BG, although Tactics Irenecus in hell was also a strong contender. The thing about long fights is, well when they crash out, you feel the need for a stiff drink and .. another stiff drink (Yes OK perhaps my mechanisms for dealing with adversity are somewhat broken).

    So .. Ascension. On hard with a full party, or solo on insane, those infinite spawning demons, they can really give you the blues. Specifically, the BSOD. This is not an easy bug to isolate, so if we're choosing between a company with a full QA department, and a brilliant developer with a handful of testers, well frankly, Beamdog FTW.

    Perhaps a compromise is in order. DavidW could package a quick and dirty version of the existing Ascension that works on EE, then go help Cuv spend a year demon hunting?

    Ardul
  • AnomalyAnomaly Member Posts: 48
    You already have Ascension working in BG2:EE, as already said earlier in that thread. Big Picture contains it, and the other components of BP are not needed if you don't want them.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    @Anomaly‌ While BP Ascension is working, it's reportedly bugging for several people (including me, can't finish ToB at all) and it's poor at best with the new content (EE NPCs). A temporary solution for some to be sure (the wait has been long after all) but we REALLY need a proper Ascension release eventually :P

    JuliusBorisovCuvshawnerorikon
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