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AI, contingencies, sequencers, meta-magic -- so how is it?

Are the contingencies and sequencers etc. ported from BG2EE to IWDEE?

I hope not. Not unless the AI is severely buffed to deal with it. And since SCS-level AI is not available for IWD that is likely not the case.

Basically, can a solo Sorcerer wipe the floors with the whole game?
(... which a well-played BG2EE Sorcerer will, if her spells are ungimped and if the AI is not buffed.)


Relatedly, is the base AI any better?
In the original, one buffed up front line tank would agro all the incoming hordes while the rest of your party (especially casters) could attack them unmolested. Does the AI now know to go after your mages and archers?

Comments

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Don't really see why Arcane cheese shouldn't be included in a game that originally was already fairly easy to break. I can understand if the original game had no game breakers, so the introduction of a game breaker would significantly change things. But if there are already simple ways to break the game originally, adding in more game breakers doesn't make it that much easier.

    If you throw a glass to the ground, breaking it, and stomp on it a few times, you're not really doing anything by stomping on it a bit more.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Nonsense.
    If you take a balanced game and unbalance it, that is not "Enhanced". It is just bad design.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Except IWD wasn't balanced in the first place.

    It wasn't hard to break that game's difficulty by fielding multi class Fighters, equipping them with bows and laying down double/triple layer webs or Emotion Debuffs.

    The difference now is that casters don't need to rely on Fighters all that much and can break the game on their own.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Nonsense, again.
    What is the merit of breaking a game --or breaking it further?

    I asked this on day one: is AI being tweaked to deal with new spells & conditions?
    IF NOT, then the game was better off without these new spells...
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited October 2014
    The game was already broken, adding more game breakers won't make it any easier.

    Anyone willing to manipulate the mechanics would have broken IWD's difficulty just as easily back then, how they do it now, and how many more ways they have available to them now doesn't matter.

    And if we're going to talk about the AI, the AI back then was just as inadequate. Enemies would just run straight into Web and Entangle, they would zero in on the nearest target no matter who it was or how impossible that target was to hit or if it had Free Action and was standing in the middle of a double layer of Web, instead of the most optimal. So even with the options players had back then, the AI was woefully easy to exploit.

    You somehow think this was "balanced"? Hilarious.

    So the difficulty isn't worse. Players back then and now have options that the AI can't handle.
  • NachtiNachti Member Posts: 89
    CamDawg said:

    Ygramul said:



    If you don't use the BG2 stuff, you'll get vanilla IWD behavior.

    Thats bad. I hoped for challenging casters.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I expect we'll see some serious mods for IWDEE regarding mages especially...

    The thought of scs cheeseball enemies in HoF mode will hunt my nightmares... They chased Dagon out, so at least I've got that going for me.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Nachti said:

    CamDawg said:

    Ygramul said:



    If you don't use the BG2 stuff, you'll get vanilla IWD behavior.

    Thats bad. I hoped for challenging casters.

    You don't find high level mages in frozen northen wildernesses. They live in cities.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Maybe scs mod can be updated to be iwd:ee compatible as well, since now iwd uses bg2 spells as well. I still wonder, though, is there any enemy casting Time Stop? Or are there scrolls for bg2 only spells and if so where are they located...gotta play and find out!
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    No. There are no 18th level wizards in IWD!
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited October 2014
    Fardragon said:

    No. There are no 18th level wizards in IWD!

    Always thought
    Malavon
    was? Then again I remember him casting flesh to stones, cloudkills and his signature spell and all. No 8th lvl spell I recall. But in HoF mode shouldn't spell casters get a level boost as well? I wish it was that way. ^^ As is, we can have a lvl 18 sorcerer (with hard difficulty double xp boost shenenigans) that can wreak havoc, but no skilled enemy to counter him. Then again some enemies especially in Trials of the Lure Master were pretty magic resistant so that should limit the sorcy's effectiveness a bit.
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    If you think that the powerful magical spells will break the game, then simply don't use them. Restrict yourself to the classes that were available in the original.

    The beauty of IWD:EE is that it can be as hard or as easy as you like. You can use story mode, if you like. Invincible characters with double XP and 25 in all stats. Or you can play on insane and restrict yourself to say only allowing 10 rerolls of stats, or restricting yourself from moving stats around.

    You can use cheesy tactics, or not. It's up to you. You can install BG2 Tweaks and allow multiclassed fighters to attain grand mastery. You can remove all traps and locks and make it so that mages never fail to learn spells. You can use the console to give yourself as much XP, gold and weapons as you would ever want.

    So why does it matter if the player has more options now? They are just that - options.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    lunar said:

    Fardragon said:

    No. There are no 18th level wizards in IWD!

    Always thought
    Malavon
    was? Then again I remember him casting flesh to stones, cloudkills and his signature spell and all. No 8th lvl spell I recall. But in HoF mode shouldn't spell casters get a level boost as well? I wish it was that way. ^^ As is, we can have a lvl 18 sorcerer (with hard difficulty double xp boost shenenigans) that can wreak havoc, but no skilled enemy to counter him. Then again some enemies especially in Trials of the Lure Master were pretty magic resistant so that should limit the sorcy's effectiveness a bit.
    I think he is level 16. HoF boosts his hp and melee damage, it doesn't do anything to his spells.

    Basically, HoF is a half baked cludge that I never use.

    There are many things in IWDEE (from sorcerers independance from scarce scrolls to totemic druid summons in HoF) that can affect the difficulty of a game that was never balanced in the first instance. Spells that are too high level for anyone to cast, on scrolls too obscure for anyone to find, are not amongst them.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060

    If you think that the powerful magical spells will break the game, then simply don't use them. Restrict yourself to the classes that were available in the original.

    That's called just bad design!
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited October 2014
    Then the game was badly designed to begin with.

    Because I can make that same argument about exploiting the stupidity of the AI. The player can always not exploit how dumb the AI is in the original IWD.
  • nbnmarenbnmare Member Posts: 15
    edited October 2014



    Anyway, think of the predicament that Beamdog is in. If they completely rebalanced the game with the new classes and abilities in mind, it would be impossible to play like you would play the original. Fans who do not like these new kits will be unable to play the game, and be upset. Even those who would relish the challenge, might be disappointed because it would have to change too much. It's not in the scope of what they wanted to do.

    Rather than rebalancing the game around the new kits and abilities, they could have perhaps rebalanced the new kits and abilities around the game. Then again, much of the BG2 stuff wasn't especially balanced even in BG2!
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Ygramul said:

    If you think that the powerful magical spells will break the game, then simply don't use them. Restrict yourself to the classes that were available in the original.

    That's called just bad design!
    So, normally I'd agree with you. Poor balance is, as a general rule, bad design. But here I don't agree. I don't agree because, frankly, using the broken stuff at anywhere near its potential takes at least a semi-sophisticated understanding of the system. You're not gonna stumble into it accidentally. If you break the game, that's you choosing to break the game. Now, if the game's too easy, that doesn't hurt anyone but you, and you can very easily just... not do the broken things and have a perfectly fine experience. Since the BG2 mage spells aren't bound to any strong thematic archetypes, there's no compelling reason to use them other than because you want to be more powerful than the game can really account for. Since that's a purely mechanical change, it's not really different from just lowering the difficulty.
  • ComplyOrDieComplyOrDie Member Posts: 41
    edited October 2014
    I can see where people are coming from but at the end of the day why introduce BG2 spells into a game where the player using them will break the game and the AI doesn't use them at all, they might as well not be there. It's like activating god mode. I think you will find a lot of people disappointed simply because it's actually a very good and very deep magic system as the mod mentioned above SCS proves extremely well for the BG series, and it's a shame not to use it in the very few environments that it actually applies to.

    Having said that, I'm not convinced it's this EE team's responsibility to do this, and unfortunately modders would have to put a hell of a lot of effort in for not much reward. (I'd pay, but how many people realistically would?).

    What I would say, though, is I am personally disappointed that a few more options haven't been included to at least have a few enemy mages who can use the new spells, to at least make that an option in the settings. Frankly, I think given the fact the whole point of this game is a challenging dungeon crawl, the effort spent creating a story mode (albeit probably didn't take much) would have been far better spent creating a decent hard mode with a half decent AI which I'm going to assert would have appealed to a good deal more of the likely purchasers of this game.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    CamDawg said:

    Ygramul said:

    Nonsense, again.
    What is the merit of breaking a game --or breaking it further?

    I asked this on day one: is AI being tweaked to deal with new spells & conditions?
    IF NOT, then the game was better off without these new spells...

    The design goals in touching up mage AI were to leave it as close to IWD as possible, but allow for intelligent responses to BG2 spells. So enemy mages are not going to be opening with BG2 Contingencies or Spell Triggers, but if you throw out Mislead, you may see an Oracle or True Sight as a counter. Cast Fireshield, perhaps a Breach in response.

    If you don't use the BG2 stuff, you'll get vanilla IWD behavior.
    this is way too minimalistic, you should have done more to ramp up mage ai because bg2 spell strategies are too stronk for this game.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Does anyone have any actual experience of BG spells making any encounters too easy, or is it all groundless hypothesising?
  • RamzaRamza Member Posts: 112
    I once tried to insect swarm a group of spellcasters only to discover that insect swarm doesn't quite work like it did in BG. Causing my own party members to run out of the area of effect screaming "Ahh! BEES!".

    Otherwise, no. Not really.
  • FrondFrond Member Posts: 121
    Havnt even hit 6th lvl mage spells in my sorc yet and I'm at chapter 6. If anything the Blackguard and Assassin in my party are breaking the game with their poisons and extra APR bows.
  • DarkcloudDarkcloud Member Posts: 302
    CamDawg said:

    Ygramul said:

    Nonsense, again.
    What is the merit of breaking a game --or breaking it further?

    I asked this on day one: is AI being tweaked to deal with new spells & conditions?
    IF NOT, then the game was better off without these new spells...

    The design goals in touching up mage AI were to leave it as close to IWD as possible, but allow for intelligent responses to BG2 spells. So enemy mages are not going to be opening with BG2 Contingencies or Spell Triggers, but if you throw out Mislead, you may see an Oracle or True Sight as a counter. Cast Fireshield, perhaps a Breach in response.

    If you don't use the BG2 stuff, you'll get vanilla IWD behavior.
    Seems like a good way to do it since the game shouldn't change that much but it would have been great for higher difficulty levels instead of the rather bad "more damage" thing the IE games went for.
  • DeltharisDeltharis Member Posts: 124
    In a somewhat related note - are there videos or descriptions how to wipe the floor with the whole game?
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    It's not that difficult...
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