Sorcerer and Dragon disciple - known spells

oldlamehand

I'm confused about number of spels known by sorcerer and Dragon disciple. From description I understand, that number of known spells should be the same for both of them.
Currently I'm playing Black Pits 2. My level 27 Dragon Disciple knows:
level 1 - 4: 5 spells
level 5: 4 spells
level 6 : 4 spells
level 7: 3 spells
level 8: 3 spells
level 9: 2 spells (+5 HLA apells)

According to this tables: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Sorcerer
the numbers of known spells should be higher. Where is the problém?

kensai

oldlamehand said:

I'm confused about number of spels known by sorcerer and Dragon disciple. From description I understand, that number of known spells should be the same for both of them.

No, DD should have -1 spell per spell level, lesser spells than sorcerer

oldlamehand

No, DD (according to the kit description) should have only 1 spell per level per day less, but the same number of spells known per level.

Sceptenar

oldlamehand said:

No, DD (according to the kit description) should have only 1 spell per level per day less, but the same number of spells known per level.

The disadvantage to Dragon Disciple is rather poorly worded, but I do believe it works as intended. One fewer known spell per level is correct.

Losing one casting per level per day is a ridiculously small disadvantage compared to the massive bonuses gained by the Dragon Disciple.

lunar

I think it was one spell less known per spell level, like when DD first came out as a kit, but then it was fixed to -1 spell/day, as evident by creating a lvl 1 DD, you start with 2 lvl 1 spell castings. (sorcerers get 3 per day at lvl 1 yeah they are overpowered)

So known spells should not be reduced for a DD, the situation can be a bug or inconsistency between the game and manual tables. Tried creating a sorcerer and lvl up via console, and does he know more spells per level than the DD when they are at the same level? He should not, from game kit description DD's disadvantage should just be a -1 spell casting per spell level.

Tresset

@lunar‌ is correct. Sorcerers and Dragon Disciples should have the same number of known spells per level but DD should be able to cast one less spell per day.

bob_veng

@lunar

does right now, in the game DD have more known spells than a Sorcerer of a same level?

smeagolheart

do the advantages of a DD actually matter to a sorcerer character? I haven't tried one in BG but I recall in NWN that sprinkling a touch of bard or sorceror into a character than taking levels of DD was a surefire way to increase you stats - so that you could use your character for other purposes than spellcasting.

Isn't a DD in BG just a flavored caster?

bob_veng

yes, additional hit points and armor class is great. the breath weapon i've been able to use to good effect in IWD:EE, in SoA not so much.

Belanos

smeagolheart said:

I haven't tried one in BG but I recall in NWN that sprinkling a touch of bard or sorceror into a character than taking levels of DD was a surefire way to increase you stats - so that you could use your character for other purposes than spellcasting.

It works the same in these games. Because there is no qualifying stat, you can put all your points into Strength/Dexterity and Constitution, minus 15 for Charisma. Plus you get 5 bonus points in AC and two in Constitution as you level up. You also use a die 6 for hitpoints rather than a die 4 for a regular Sorcerer. So you could conceivably use a Dragon Disciple in melee if you wanted to. Though you'd only want to do that a bit later on. But you don't need to have any Bard or Sorcerer levels in these games, you start a Dragon Disciple right away.

lunar

Also you could eventually become immune to fire and stay around in your fireballs, Incendiary clouds, meteor swarms...dd is a strong and fire themed caster.

Klorox

Having a Regenerating sorcerer is a nice bonus early on.

Bercon

Sceptenar said:

Losing one casting per level per day is a ridiculously small disadvantage compared to the massive bonuses gained by the Dragon Disciple.

Perhaps in BG1 this is true. However in higher levels the extra AC and small hit point gain doesn't really do much compared to 1 extra casting of Time Stop etc.

oldlamehand

I'm not solving the question, whether DD is balanced or not. I'm trying to find out, whether the known spells progression works as it was intendie or it is a bug.

athanas

lunar said:

Also you could eventually become immune to fire and stay around in your fireballs, Incendiary clouds, meteor swarms...dd is a strong and fire themed caster.

Problem with staying in e.g. Incendiary Clouds is that your spells are disrupted even with 100% resistance do the damage...
( @Elminster mentioned that in one discussion)

Noloir

Found that even though DD is Fire Themed it's best to treat it as a regular Sorc in term of spell selection. It may be immune to it's own attacks but the spread damage fire typically inflicts is more of a liability to a party than an asset. Although Cold and Fire Resistant scrolls and spells could be used in ample amounts they tend to be a waste of gold and respective spell slots.

lunar

athanas said:

lunar said:

Also you could eventually become immune to fire and stay around in your fireballs, Incendiary clouds, meteor swarms...dd is a strong and fire themed caster.

Problem with staying in e.g. Incendiary Clouds is that your spells are disrupted even with 100% resistance do the damage...
( @Elminster mentioned that in one discussion)

Once you are in a 3xincendiary cloud, (chain contingencied) you don't need to cast more spells. Let enemies follow you around the cloud and they will burn from raw to extra crispy in no time.

Yannir

I think you should have 3x level 9 spells and 4x level 7 spells, that's atleast what I have at the same level, level 27 DD. I happen to have a save right before facing the Planar Hunters.