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Too easy?

So I remember playing this game back in the day and getting absolutely devastated even at the vale of shadows. Even if not devastated, I remember it wasn't exactly easy.

But now, either because I know how to min/max or because of the kits, whatever the reason I find myself just crushing through every single monster that appears before me. Maybe it's because it's still early in the game, but it really shouldn't be this much of a cakewalk.

Turning up the difficulty only makes it worse. I level up twice as fast which means I absolutely destroy anything before they can even touch me.

Something is wrong. What can I do to make this game challenging?
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Comments

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Hmmm... I was pretty crushed in the vale of shadows, though it was my first time around, and I didn't min/max to much

    Sorcerer-CG
    10str
    15dex
    14con
    17int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger

    Conjurer2->fighter-CN
    17str
    14dex
    15con
    15int
    12wis
    8cha
    *sling
    *axe

    Fighter-LN
    16str
    15dex
    15con
    15int
    9wis
    13cha
    *longsword(dual wielded)
    *longbow
    **two weapon style

    Bard-LN
    12str
    12dex
    12con
    13int
    7wis
    15cha
    *short sword
    *crossbow

    Thief-CN
    15str
    16dex
    9con
    15int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger
    *crossbow

    Cleric of lathander-LG
    14str
    17dex
    10con
    13int
    14wis
    14cha
    *mace
    *sling


    I played on core.

    I suppose you could turn on that extra-hard button? Heart of... Winter of fury. I can't remember which one.
    (That's a thing, right)
  • CrusherEAGLECrusherEAGLE Member Posts: 19
    meagloth said:

    Hmmm... I was pretty crushed in the vale of shadows, though it was my first time around, and I didn't min/max to much


    Sorcerer-CG
    10str
    15dex
    14con
    17int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger

    Conjurer2->fighter-CN
    17str
    14dex
    15con
    15int
    12wis
    8cha
    *sling
    *axe

    Fighter-LN
    16str
    15dex
    15con
    15int
    9wis
    13cha
    *longsword(dual wielded)
    *longbow
    **two weapon style

    Bard-LN
    12str
    12dex
    12con
    13int
    7wis
    15cha
    *short sword
    *crossbow

    Thief-CN
    15str
    16dex
    9con
    15int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger
    *crossbow

    Cleric of lathander-LG
    14str
    17dex
    10con
    13int
    14wis
    14cha
    *mace
    *sling


    I played on core.

    I suppose you could turn on that extra-hard button? Heart of... Winter of fury. I can't remember which one.
    (That's a thing, right)
    Yeah, I guess the fact that I min/maxed is helping a lot more than I thought. I kept rerolling until I hit a good number and then 18'd all the relevant stats.

    But not doing that for me feels like gimping myself in a way.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    We've had a few threads about this already. I also remember the game being really hard back in the day, but that was before I knew so much about how the mechanics work in the Infinity Engine.

    The best way to make the game challenging (imo), is to use all pure classes, and do not use the + and - buttons at character creation - no characters should have 18+ STR, 18+ DEX, 18+ CON. Keep the slider on core rules. Don't use dual wielding or weapon styles.

    If you min-max six characters and make every one of them a fighter multi-class or dual-class, then you're going to steamroll any Infinity Engine game.

    Try this:

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/36352/the-way-it-is-meant-to-be-played-tm-an-ocders-guide-to-making-iwdee-a-challenge#latest
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    @BelgarathMTH‌

    what do you think about developers doing at least something, even the tiniest thing to affect the decreased difficulty in this edition of the game?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    agreed wholeheartedly. they've already changed some bg2 items but they now have a policy against changing iwd items.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    If you want a really challenging game, a no limit playthrough of an Infinity Engine game with no mods shouldn't be the first place you look for it.

    It'd be like people playing a Contra game and getting disappointed with the lack of a deep plot.
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330
    There are so many ways to make the game harder. If you want to challenge yourself, just do it. You don't have to go all the way, but try a couple of these suggestions and report back. @BelgarathMTH‌ is right, choices are good.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    Dee said:

    bob_veng said:

    agreed wholeheartedly. they've already changed some bg2 items but they now have a policy against changing iwd items.

    Just to clarify, BGII:EE was led by different people than IWD:EE, so design philosophies will necessarily be different between the two games. With IWD:EE we tried very hard to maintain the integrity of the game's original design. People might disagree about how successful we were in that effort, but for us the goal was to preserve "what makes Icewind Dale the great game it is". The things we changed were primarily out of necessity, rather than any effort to rebalance the game itself.
    do you think that you have succeeded in that?
    i think you have succeeded partially and partially you have not. and i believe there are some things that can be done post release to restore some of that compromised goodness.
    is beamdog open to considering some post-release tweaks based on player feedback or is there low probability for that?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Definitely offer any feedback you have. If you have specific things you'd like to see done differently, post them in Feature Requests; if you just want to spitball ideas, use this forum.

    We have a list of things that we know we want to do as part of our post-release support, so if people have sensible suggestions that can be done easily we can certainly look at them. I won't make any promises, but we definitely don't want people to stop talking about things if they're not satisfied.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    @Dee‌
    i have already posted a feature request earlier today. there are at least two ideas i think are really really sound, namely the first one and the fourth one.

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/36531/iwd-ee-rectify-the-imbalancing-effect-of-dual-wielding-some-small-adjustments#latest
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • SeldarSeldar Member Posts: 438
    There are too many overpowered items/weapons, the group becomes too fast like a BG2 team, whereas we start level 1. It should be more like BG1, only 2 or 3 good weapons per class
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited November 2014

    meagloth said:

    Hmmm... I was pretty crushed in the vale of shadows, though it was my first time around, and I didn't min/max to much


    Sorcerer-CG
    10str
    15dex
    14con
    17int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger

    Conjurer2->fighter-CN
    17str
    14dex
    15con
    15int
    12wis
    8cha
    *sling
    *axe

    Fighter-LN
    16str
    15dex
    15con
    15int
    9wis
    13cha
    *longsword(dual wielded)
    *longbow
    **two weapon style

    Bard-LN
    12str
    12dex
    12con
    13int
    7wis
    15cha
    *short sword
    *crossbow

    Thief-CN
    15str
    16dex
    9con
    15int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger
    *crossbow

    Cleric of lathander-LG
    14str
    17dex
    10con
    13int
    14wis
    14cha
    *mace
    *sling


    I played on core.

    I suppose you could turn on that extra-hard button? Heart of... Winter of fury. I can't remember which one.
    (That's a thing, right)
    Yeah, I guess the fact that I min/maxed is helping a lot more than I thought. I kept rerolling until I hit a good number and then 18'd all the relevant stats.

    But not doing that for me feels like gimping myself in a way.
    Yes, not only because the characters are less powerful, but not having all 18's in con dex and str really open up a bunch of spells ant strategies that where not very useful before. Having 15-17 strength on your fighters makes all the items and spells that boost strength to 18 very valuable. Strength of one goes from "meh" to a must-have buff. A bard with 15 int suddenly opens up a spot for potions of genius, scribing 5-10 spells at once, rather than as you find them. Not having a 18 cha leader suddenly makes "friends" seem a lot friendlier.

    Also, if you feel like your just gimping yourself and it feels forced, role play it. What I did with my party is I used my real life friends as templates and named characters after them. I guess it sounds a little weird but seeing

    Joebob- takes 10 damage from fire salamander
    Jokebob- death

    Is quite novel when Joebob is your best freind:) I also think having yourself(I.e. Your real name) as party leader helps immersion, and I usually do it on my first run through a game, though now I use meagloth a lot because I use that name on the internet so much it's almost as powerful and my real name.

    Another way to get lower stats would be to creat character concepts in your head, and then do one of those alignment/stat quizzes in their perspective. That could also give you and interesting party composition if you didn't assign classes first.
    Hmmmm....
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Here's a few tests:
    This one is long and mostly opinion based; does class, alignment, race, and stats. Probably good for character creation.
    http://www.easydamus.com/character.html

    This one is based in actual ability(I.E. "How many push-ups can you do?" rather than "are you 'very strong' or 'not very strong") and probably best for real people. Does alignment, class, and stats.... Sort of. Race is a bit cookie:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/31240/meagloths-alignment-test

    This one does just stats and is my favorite. Good for real people and characters:
    http://www.kevinhaw.com/add_quiz.php

    This One does just stats and is very good for real people except for charisma, which is total crap:
    http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/back/xstattest.html

    I hope i could help.
  • CrusherEAGLECrusherEAGLE Member Posts: 19
    meagloth said:

    meagloth said:

    Hmmm... I was pretty crushed in the vale of shadows, though it was my first time around, and I didn't min/max to much


    Sorcerer-CG
    10str
    15dex
    14con
    17int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger

    Conjurer2->fighter-CN
    17str
    14dex
    15con
    15int
    12wis
    8cha
    *sling
    *axe

    Fighter-LN
    16str
    15dex
    15con
    15int
    9wis
    13cha
    *longsword(dual wielded)
    *longbow
    **two weapon style

    Bard-LN
    12str
    12dex
    12con
    13int
    7wis
    15cha
    *short sword
    *crossbow

    Thief-CN
    15str
    16dex
    9con
    15int
    14wis
    15cha
    *dagger
    *crossbow

    Cleric of lathander-LG
    14str
    17dex
    10con
    13int
    14wis
    14cha
    *mace
    *sling


    I played on core.

    I suppose you could turn on that extra-hard button? Heart of... Winter of fury. I can't remember which one.
    (That's a thing, right)
    Yeah, I guess the fact that I min/maxed is helping a lot more than I thought. I kept rerolling until I hit a good number and then 18'd all the relevant stats.

    But not doing that for me feels like gimping myself in a way.
    Yes, not only because the characters are less powerful, but not having all 18's in con dex and str really open up a bunch of spells ant strategies that where not very useful before. Having 15-17 strength on your fighters makes all the items and spells that boost strength to 18 very valuable. Strength of one goes from "meh" to a must-have buff. A bard with 15 int suddenly opens up a spot for potions of genius, scribing 5-10 spells at once, rather than as you find them. Not having a 18 cha leader suddenly makes "friends" seem a lot friendlier.

    Also, if you feel like your just gimping yourself and it feels forced, role play it. What I did with my party is I used my real life friends as templates and named characters after them. I guess it sounds a little weird but seeing

    Joebob- takes 10 damage from fire salamander
    Jokebob- death

    Is quite novel when Joebob is your best freind:) I also think having yourself(I.e. Your real name) as party leader helps immersion, and I usually do it on my first run through a game, though now I use meagloth a lot because I use that name on the internet so much it's almost as powerful and my real name.

    Another way to get lower stats would be to creat character concepts in your head, and then do one of those alignment/stat quizzes in their perspective. That could also give you and interesting party composition if you didn't assign classes first.
    Hmmmm....
    So I went ahead and just rolled my stats without +/- (I rerolled as many times as I wanted though), so I could have strong characters but still have somewhat of a challenge. It's kind of fun, actually, not having characters that are 18/18/18/3/3/3, for example for a warrior, rather there is an element of randomness included, and I find myself hurting a lot more in the vale of shadows which is what I kind of wanted in the first place.

    I was steamrolling everything when I min/maxed and was having no fun, although I still feel a bit like I "cheated" the intended game system of being allowed to +/- at the beginning. Whatever.

    I'm having a tough time deciding whether I should do the "no reload" thing. Sure, it adds more meaning to the fights, but imagine being 3 levels deep into a dungeon and having a party member die and have to go back to town all the way...
  • CrusherEAGLECrusherEAGLE Member Posts: 19
    meagloth said:

    Here's a few tests:
    This one is long and mostly opinion based; does class, alignment, race, and stats. Probably good for character creation.
    http://www.easydamus.com/character.html

    This one is based in actual ability(I.E. "How many push-ups can you do?" rather than "are you 'very strong' or 'not very strong") and probably best for real people. Does alignment, class, and stats.... Sort of. Race is a bit cookie:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/31240/meagloths-alignment-test

    This one does just stats and is my favorite. Good for real people and characters:
    http://www.kevinhaw.com/add_quiz.php

    This One does just stats and is very good for real people except for charisma, which is total crap:
    http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/back/xstattest.html

    I hope i could help.

    Thanks for this, but it's a bit too late as i've already created my characters. Rerolling the dice seems to work just fine though, as long as you resist the temptation to touch the +/- button. Kind of more fun this way, actually.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806

    meagloth said:

    Here's a few tests:
    This one is long and mostly opinion based; does class, alignment, race, and stats. Probably good for character creation.
    http://www.easydamus.com/character.html

    This one is based in actual ability(I.E. "How many push-ups can you do?" rather than "are you 'very strong' or 'not very strong") and probably best for real people. Does alignment, class, and stats.... Sort of. Race is a bit cookie:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/31240/meagloths-alignment-test

    This one does just stats and is my favorite. Good for real people and characters:
    http://www.kevinhaw.com/add_quiz.php

    This One does just stats and is very good for real people except for charisma, which is total crap:
    http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/back/xstattest.html

    I hope i could help.

    Thanks for this, but it's a bit too late as i've already created my characters. Rerolling the dice seems to work just fine though, as long as you resist the temptation to touch the +/- button. Kind of more fun this way, actually.
    Alright, cool. I don't like that way, but a lot of people do(I think it's how pnp does it: your roll is your roll. Period.)
    If you're unsure about no reload, I would try "minimum reload", which is no reload except instead of completely starting over when everyone dies, you just reload the last save. This way you get the feeling of no reload but you don't have to play through the beginning of the game 50 times before you get even halfway through.
  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 308
    edited November 2014
    There's lots of stuff you can do to increase the level of challenge. Some suggestions, a few of which have already been mentioned:

    1. Always play on core rules (note that max HP on level up should NOT be considered in keeping with core rules). This has two interesting effects:
    a. Random hitpoints on level up means your dwarven defender probably won't have 85 hitpoints by the time he's level 5. Rather, he'll have around 55-60. Still tough, just not ungodly so.
    b. Your mages may fail when they try to scribe scrolls. Meaning you either accept that you may lose key scrolls to bad luck, or you only scribe when you have enough Potions of Genius/Mind Focusing to raise INT to 24+ for guaranteed success (in the latter case you then won't have new spells available as soon as you find a scroll for them). This also limits how many mages you can realistically bring along, which is a good thing (Sorcerers throw a wrench into this of course, decide for yourself if you want one).

    2. My favorite: Roll your party members! Don't sit like a dolt pressing Reroll until everyone has 90+ total. Who wants to play with a band of supermen? We want actual characters in our party!
    Grab some dice and decide on a generation method and see what classes you can create.
    I quite enjoy the organic method described here: http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/stat_generation.htm
    Roll six times recording in order using the best 3 of 4d6. Re-roll any one ability score taking the best of the two. Then switch any two scores.
    You typically end up with 1-2 really bad characters, 2-3 highly mediocre ones, and 1-2 rather good ones. Much more entertaining than 6 incarnations of Aristotle or Hercules, and you might end up with a really quirky party that requires some unorthodox tactics to shine.

    3. Limit your resting. If you only keep fighting until your spells run out, you'll never be properly challenged. The challenge lies in conserving your resources and applying them at the optimal moment. I try to avoid resting more than once per level (ie go in, clear a level, then you may rest). But anything is better than resting after every fight.

    4. Limit how many demihumans you can have in your party. A demihuman is pretty much always better than a regular human (exception being if you dual-class cheese everyone from fighter). Humans are supposed to be the most prolific race after all, so an entire party made up of everything BUT humans seems off...

    5. No-reload. The ultimate challenge. You'll actually start memorizing Raise Dead, as well as question your thinking in bringing an elf along since Raise Dead doesn't work on them (only Resurrection).
    If a character gets chunked, too bad. Make sure that doesn't happen.
    Admittedly this might be a little too much for most people. Minimal reload is an alright compromise. You may then reload if the entire party dies or if a party member is chunked.

    Just a few suggestions, I follow all of the above mentioned rules and am having a good, reasonably challenging time. I had a run ended because I didn't feel like continuing after my barbarian got chunked (62 damage Static Charge when he had something like 18 HP left...), but then you dust yourself off and try again.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,154
    meagloth said:

    meagloth said:

    Here's a few tests:
    This one is long and mostly opinion based; does class, alignment, race, and stats. Probably good for character creation.
    http://www.easydamus.com/character.html

    This one is based in actual ability(I.E. "How many push-ups can you do?" rather than "are you 'very strong' or 'not very strong") and probably best for real people. Does alignment, class, and stats.... Sort of. Race is a bit cookie:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/31240/meagloths-alignment-test

    This one does just stats and is my favorite. Good for real people and characters:
    http://www.kevinhaw.com/add_quiz.php

    This One does just stats and is very good for real people except for charisma, which is total crap:
    http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/terragf/back/xstattest.html

    I hope i could help.

    Thanks for this, but it's a bit too late as i've already created my characters. Rerolling the dice seems to work just fine though, as long as you resist the temptation to touch the +/- button. Kind of more fun this way, actually.
    Alright, cool. I don't like that way, but a lot of people do(I think it's how pnp does it: your roll is your roll. Period.)
    If you're unsure about no reload, I would try "minimum reload", which is no reload except instead of completely starting over when everyone dies, you just reload the last save. This way you get the feeling of no reload but you don't have to play through the beginning of the game 50 times before you get even halfway through.
    Most PNP games have some sort of mechanism so players don't get "stuck" with a character that will be no fun for them. It may mean re-rolling very weak characters, or some sort of point shift/score swap rule. When I DM, I only allow point shifts to minimums for a class or multi-class (of course we're rolling scores BEFORE choosing class!); but I do allow complete do overs if the character looks very weak.

    But the end result is, far less of the mega-powerful characters than we see in CRPGs. For my BG and IWD characters I often use EEKeeper to match my character to an actual PNP character I've played. That means they're typically capable, with some bonuses, but well short of the "mega" category.
    When I do roll a random character, I usually allow for a half dozen or so tries for a decent looking character. But no point shifting.
    I have occasionally done the true random, no re-rolls at all. But that can mean a pretty weak character. Weak can be fun too, but mainly as a contrast to what a more capable character is like. It helps you appreciate what all those bonuses are actually for!
  • CrusherEAGLECrusherEAGLE Member Posts: 19
    By the way guys, I might have spoken too soon. I'm getting my ass handed to me in the second floor of the VoS crypt. This is with randomly rolled characters...
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I am a firm believer of just letting players have some leeway/trust and letting them chose their stats. Self policing works pretty well, as anyone choosing absurd stats will definately stick out in a bad way. Heck, you could still DM veto anyone being silly. More useful in 3rd ed, where good average is much better, but I like the idea of players having input into their characters, within reasonable limits (ie, you can just say max 1 stat 18, total max 85).
  • CoryNewbCoryNewb Member Posts: 1,330

    By the way guys, I might have spoken too soon. I'm getting my ass handed to me in the second floor of the VoS crypt. This is with randomly rolled characters...

    XD
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