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[not an issue] Elemental Transformation (Druid)

FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
edited November 2014 in BGII:EE Bugs (v1.2.2030)
Hi there.

I'll get right to the point. The HLA Elemental Transformation (Fire at least) is not giving me the proper hitpoints like stated in the description (24HD). My current HP is 104. After the transformation I still have 104 hit points. If the hit points of the elementals you summon are of any indication, I should get 192 hit points after the transformation. Either the description is wrong, or it's a bug. =)

Thanks in advance.
Post edited by Tresset on

Comments

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Well, actually this is normal. The 24HD is referring to the level of elemental you transform into and not how many hitpoints you get when you transform. None of the shapeshift abilities are supposed to modify your base HP.
  • FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
    edited November 2014
    I think both are related. It's implied that a higher level monster has more hitpoints than a low level monster. This in fact works with the summoned creatures. It should work for the shapechange as well. That or the information about 24HD is irrelevant (and misleading).
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    As stated above, strongly suspect its to identify which elemental you are getting, ie not a small one. I don't think it ststs you get the HP, which could be silly. Most forms would be hopelessly fragile.
  • FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
    edited November 2014
    @DreadKhan, I was talking about the shapechange (the Fire Elemental Form Druid HLA). It states in the HLA description that you 'turn into a powerful 24HD Fire Elemental'. I only mentioned the summoned elementals to "prove" my point since they seem to receive the hitpoints they are supposed to get. Plus, the only difference I saw between a "small" elemental and a "big" elemental is the amount of hitpoints they receive (and you don't with the HLA). So, if it states there that you "turn into a powerful 24HD monster" I expect to receive those hitpoints as well. Otherwise, I don't see the point in that information (or the abiliti, for that matter). Why would the ability transform me into a giant fire elemental with the hp of a small one? For comparison sake, if you summon a Fire Elemental (lvl 6 spell) and you get the 24HD version (5% chance), it WILL be more powerful than your own form (the HLA fire elemental form), since you don't get the hps. This is why I suspect the description is right and you ARE supposed to receive bonus hitpoints.

    Of course, I may be wrong, but so far it's not making sense.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Shapeshifts are definitely not supposed to change your HP. To be honest, the "24HD" is mainly there for flavor text and to make the D&D lawyers happy. Regardless, these forms never got bonus HP (not even in the original games) and I am confident that they never will. This is not an issue.

    As a side note there are some other differences between the different elementals summoned by the elemental summoning spells. The bigger ones often have higher strength, better thac0, better saves, and (naturally) a higher level in addition to the higher HP.
  • FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
    Thanks for the clarification, Tresset.
    Still, would you agree that it makes this HLA pointless when you can summon a more powerful being with a lower level spell? I would lose every time if I go 1v1 against the 6th lvl spell 24HD Fire Elemental since it gets double my hp (192).

  • FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
    I just looked at the creatures (using both ingame data and EE keeper) and apparently the 6th level spell 24HD summon has 192 hitpoints, AC 0 and Thac0 0. Both have the same STR and DEX and 1 attacks/round. The shapeshifting version gets no hp bonus, AC -5 and Thac0 2. Not worth it in my opinion. I will just trade (using EE keeper) this HLA for the Elemental Summoning one.

    Anyway, thanks again Tresset and DreadKhan for your input and thoughts on the matter.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @FAButzke‌ if it makes things any easier, there is a very important reason shapeshifting has no impact on HP, because it could cause big hassles for the engine.

    Regarding your claim about which elemental is better, you will steamroll the summoned one if you've got Kensai levels. A multiclass Fighter/Druid will easily win that fight too. Not every ability is equal, but Elemental Transformation doesn't use a spell slot, making it very handy.
  • FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
    Good point. Though I'm talking about pure druids. I'm playing my first Shapeshifter and I thought I could use more flavor. Thus, I picked that ability and noticed that it "sucked" right away. I have better results emulating the Fire Elemental with spells/items than wasting a HLA point with that ability (IMO).

    Also, the Greater Werewolf form (with all its limitations) is far superior too (more attacks, more stats, magic resistance...) And, like I said, I can conjure more than one fire elemental with the spell (or 2 at the same time with Elemental Summoning HLA). I can't see the benefits of that ability.

    Perhaps I just need the right combination of kits. I remember using the Earth Elemental Form once for Jaheira (waaaaay back) and it didn't seem to "suck" this much. So perhaps you are right there.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Well, the Elememtal forms are MUCH harder hitters iirc than the GWwolf, though you mightnhave APR issues.

    As I memtioned though, not needing a spell slot bring in an elemental is nice, and iirc, Ironskins still functions after shifting, ie still protects. Try taking Single Weapon Style, it works for shapeshifted forms, and is a nice buff.

    Imho, you can't expect your Druid to match a Berserker or other Fighter. The GWwolf is crazy tough though, and Elememtal Forms deal incredible damage on a hit. If you are patient with some dual classing, you can get a Druid thats pretty decent in melee, and having Elemental Forms with Fighter HLAs is frankly superb.
  • FAButzkeFAButzke Member Posts: 29
    Again, awesome point. I guess my disappointment came from the fact that I read 24HD and receive nothing except more fire resistance compared to the Greater Werewolf Form. With 192hp, I could see it being viable (for me) without being OP . As it stands, I would not benefit from it.

    Anyway, I traded that HLA for the Elemental Summoning (and I have the Greater ES now as well). Now I can effectively summon 2 elementals, turn into a GWW and wreak havoc among the enemy lines with my two body guards. Couple that with iron skin, chaotic commands, items and stuff and I'm pretty much unstoppable. A pity I've lost my innate Draw Upon Holy Might ability, getting 25 str 24 dex and 21 con while in GWW form was awesome too =D
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