Shouldn't Haste be a priority in HoF?

Maple

What is your choice of Level 3 spell for a sorcerer? And the priority?

I choose Haste, Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius and Melf's Minute Meteors.

I believe Haste is important for sorcerer to take as it severely improves everyone's combat ability.

lunar

I believe haste is a waste on a sorcerer. A sorcerer's strength is that he can cast the same spell multiple times, over and over. You don't cast haste over and over without a rest period. Or you will be fatigued a lot and the combat will be dangerous.

Personally, a bard can cast haste better:he will have higher caster level so haste will last a lot longer, and he only needs to cast it once per rest period so he can put his tighter spell slots to best use this way.

Now, improved haste on the other hand, a sorcerer can improved haste three or four party fighters with no problem. So haste is bad on sorcerers, if you can have another support caster like a bard especially, but improved haste is awesome:especially if you have fighters with actually good number of attacks:two-weapon style fighters and/or fighters with grand mastery. Improved haste will double up their attack numbers to like, 9/round.

JuliusBorisov

I agree with @lunar‌ . Now with the fatigue penalties rightly implemented in IWDEE, you shouldn't cast more than one Haste spell per the period between rests. Unfailing Endurance of you cleric can eleminate the fatigue but still you won't have 6 Unfailing Endurance spells available...

I would take Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius, Melf's Minute Meteors and Lance of Disruption at the 3rd level

Lance of Disruption is a badass spell. Any creatures in the lance’s path (and that's 100 ft. !) take 5d4 points of crushing damage plus 2 points of damage per level of the caster, save vs. Spell for half damage. Unbelievable if use right.

Kenji

I have my bard memorize haste once and use it as the last spell when everything else is expended.

Invisibility 10' is also available after chapter 1 (beginning of chapter 2: Dragon's Eye, just walk to area and back to Kuldahar). Take note that it also gives enemies invisibility, so I only use it as a last resort on a bard, as well.

As for what level 3 spells to take, many people have discussed all levels in this thread: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/36357/sorcerer-spells-in-iwd

I'd personally take Slow first, then maybe Skull Trap or Melf's Minute Meteor/Flame Arrow. The latter spells mentioned scale well into later levels, fireball, however, stops scaling at level10. I'd still take fireball for RP purposes, if the sorcerer is a pyromaniac.

Edit: @Bengoshi beat me to it!

lunar

bengoshi said:

I agree with @lunar‌ . Now with the fatigue penalties rightly implemented in IWDEE, you shouldn't cast more than one Haste spell per the period between rests. Unfailing Endurance of you cleric can eleminate the fatigue but still you won't have 6 Unfailing Endurance spells available...

I would take Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius, Melf's Minute Meteors and Lance of Disruption at the 3rd level

Lance of Disruption is a badass spell. Any creatures in the lance’s path (and that's 100 ft. !) take 5d4 points of crushing damage plus 2 points of damage per level of the caster, save vs. Spell for half damage. Unbelievable if use right.

And it does crushing damage, right? There are some enemies weak to that damage type, and being able to deal huge amounts of non-elemental damage with a spell is awesome! That's what I like about iwd best, it is a very elemental and damage resistance based game. Some enemies are resistant to some damage type and are generally weak to another. This is more heavily emphasised in iwd than bg series, I think.

Kenji

lunar said:

And it does crushing damage, right? There are some enemies weak to that damage type, and being able to deal huge amounts of non-elemental damage with a spell is awesome! That's what I like about iwd best, it is a very elemental and damage resistance based game. Some enemies are resistant to some damage type and are generally weak to another. This is more heavily emphasised in iwd than bg series, I think.

Indeed. Skeletal Enemies take extra Crushing damage while they take halved slashing/piercing damage.

Most Cadaverous undead are resistant to most physical damage while they take extra fire damage (especially drowned dead from Burial Isle, goodness)

Maple

lunar said:

I believe haste is a waste on a sorcerer. A sorcerer's strength is that he can cast the same spell multiple times, over and over. You don't cast haste over and over without a rest period. Or you will be fatigued a lot and the combat will be dangerous.

Personally, a bard can cast haste better:he will have higher caster level so haste will last a lot longer, and he only needs to cast it once per rest period so he can put his tighter spell slots to best use this way.

Now, improved haste on the other hand, a sorcerer can improved haste three or four party fighters with no problem. So haste is bad on sorcerers, if you can have another support caster like a bard especially, but improved haste is awesome:especially if you have fighters with actually good number of attacks:two-weapon style fighters and/or fighters with grand mastery. Improved haste will double up their attack numbers to like, 9/round.

But isn't bard not suitaable for HoF? Character with litttle fighting skill has to be limited to no more than 1, which is to say Bard, Sorcerer, Druid and Mage... So there shouldn't be a bard if there is a sorcerer.

Kenji

Maple said:

But isn't bard not suitaable for HoF? Character with litttle fighting skill has to be limited to no more than 1, which is to say Bard, Sorcerer, Druid and Mage... So there shouldn't be a bard if there is a sorcerer.

Actually, in HoF mode you don't have to powergame to the max (It does help, though) in order to progress through the content. For the most part it's manipulating the game's mechanics to your advantage to cover the disadvantages from your parties. I have an unkitted bard in my lvl1 HoF run and its doing fine.

Sure, a fighter dual mage can do better at pretty much almost everything over a bard except pickpocketing and War Chant of the Sith, but some quests and items are only available exclusively by having bards. Why not have both in a run!?

Lord_Tansheron

Actually I'm reconsidering Bard for HoF, in particular Skald. +4 to damage on everyone (i.e. 4/5 other party members) is coming close to full damage output from another char in place of the bard (if not more with summons), and you also get the -AC and arcane spells from the Bard.

Anyway, to stay on topic... With a Sorcerer, yes I'd skip Haste. Haste is available fairly easily in the game for whoever can scribe scrolls (mage or bard) and in any case is highly annoying in IWD thanks to the fatigue penalty. Also, there isn't a whole lot of quick movement involved as packs get huge and space cramped, so you really want the haste only for the +1 APR - but you can get that elsewhere. There is a lot of +APR items floating around, and there's also Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, which in many ways is Haste on crack from your cleric.

Zyzzogeton

Prioritize Invisibility 10' Radius as it gives you an edge in Vale of Shadows where you entering each cave requires the entire party and you're immediately surrounded by undead. Cast Animate Dead (or whatever summon spell you have) outside the entrance, cast Invisibility on your party.

Go in, have 1 character unstealth. Preferrably the character which will be able to run away quickly when you end up outside each area, this is fairly important as all except 2 of the entrances are on ledges. Wait for the enemies to target him, run out of the area, move your entire party away and enemies will start going for your summons.

Wait until they're all engaged and unstealth and start attacking.

lunar

Kenji said:

lunar said:

And it does crushing damage, right? There are some enemies weak to that damage type, and being able to deal huge amounts of non-elemental damage with a spell is awesome! That's what I like about iwd best, it is a very elemental and damage resistance based game. Some enemies are resistant to some damage type and are generally weak to another. This is more heavily emphasised in iwd than bg series, I think.

Indeed. Skeletal Enemies take extra Crushing damage while they take halved slashing/piercing damage.

Most Cadaverous undead are resistant to most physical damage while they take extra fire damage (especially drowned dead from Burial Isle, goodness)

Yeah I still haven't played Burial Isle in ee, but my memories from the vanilla are similiar to what you describe.

A sorcerer is best at bombarding the crap out of enemies with different spells. Go fireball, ice lance and lance of disruption:this sorcerer can dish out various types of damage, and you don't need to prepare the right stuff. Just cast the one that suits the situation. Fighting standard enemies, or ice salamanders? Nuke'em with fireballs. Against fire salamanders, elementals? Dose them off with ice lances. Fighting skeletal undead? Lance of disruption will knock them off nicely.

Maple said:

lunar said:

I believe haste is a waste on a sorcerer. A sorcerer's strength is that he can cast the same spell multiple times, over and over. You don't cast haste over and over without a rest period. Or you will be fatigued a lot and the combat will be dangerous.

Personally, a bard can cast haste better:he will have higher caster level so haste will last a lot longer, and he only needs to cast it once per rest period so he can put his tighter spell slots to best use this way.

Now, improved haste on the other hand, a sorcerer can improved haste three or four party fighters with no problem. So haste is bad on sorcerers, if you can have another support caster like a bard especially, but improved haste is awesome:especially if you have fighters with actually good number of attacks:two-weapon style fighters and/or fighters with grand mastery. Improved haste will double up their attack numbers to like, 9/round.

But isn't bard not suitaable for HoF? Character with litttle fighting skill has to be limited to no more than 1, which is to say Bard, Sorcerer, Druid and Mage... So there shouldn't be a bard if there is a sorcerer.

Bard is suitable for the game thanks to War Chant of Sith. It regenerates the entire party quite nicely. And there are some weapons that give extra attacks, plus lots of bard only quest rewards and items.

Zyzzogeton

The problem with Fireball is that it's just 10D6.

It's really not a lot. Especially when enemies save. So 5D6. Also it risks hitting your own party members which, thanks to how difficulty damage modifiers actually work, deals double damage on them.

Skull Trap is better, but only after Level 10 because before that it's just a smaller radius Fireball.

lunar

Zyzzogeton said:

The problem with Fireball is that it's just 10D6.

It's really not a lot. Especially when enemies save. So 5D6. Also it risks hitting your own party members which, thanks to how difficulty damage modifiers actually work, deals double damage on them.

Skull Trap is better, but only after Level 10 because before that it's just a smaller radius Fireball.

Yeah sure, statistically skull trap will deal bigger damage. Fireball used to have greater range as an advantage in bg though, and looks better. Especially in iwd the fire blast animation looks good to my eyes.

It still does magic damage in iwd:ee, right? In IWD2 it does slashing damage, which might make some sense. It is supposed to be necrotic energy damage in 2e, but then undead should be immune to it. If it was coded like this it would have been next to useless as there are many undead hordes in IWD. IIRC, Horrid Wilting did not affect undead at all in iwd. It also hurt party members too, so it is a far cry from the 'go-to nuke spell for everyone' bg version. I felt dirty when I Horrid Wilted some skeletons or mummies in BG2. All undead should be immune to Horrid Wilting, maybe except vampires as bodily fluids are vital to them as well. I wish there was a mod like this for bg.

Zyzzogeton

What Wilting affects has really no bearing on Fireball because they're on different spell levels. Also Wilting not affecting undead can be exploited by casting Animate Dead sending the summons to draw aggro and just dropping one Wilting after the other. Enemies won't retarget because the summons won't die.

This is about Level 3 Spells for a Sorc on a party in HoF mode and from what's implied a fresh run because no one is going to pick Invisiblity 10' when they already have Mass Invisibility.

In those conditions Fireball is a poor pick

Lord_Tansheron

Damage spells in general are a poor pick in HoF because everything has huuuge amounts of HP. From what I could tell, 200+ is easily found all around. Say you pop a what, 15d6 Skull Trap? That's 52.5 damage on average if they miss the save, and 22.25 if they don't - or ~25-12.5% of a mob's HP. Not exactly spectacular, and barely more than melee attacks from your fighters, which happen several times per round all day every day.

No, support spells is where it's at, not damage. Things like Slow and the likes will have a MUCH more relevant impact than some random damage doodles.

Endarire

[i]Haste[/i] may seem like a waste, but on Heart of Fury, "[i]Haste[/i] makes waste of mine enemies."

[i]Monster Summoning I[/i] helps if you want a wall of meat as a distraction/blocker.

Note that one point of the Sorcerer is spontaneous access to spells he can cast. While [i]haste[/i] may never be cast more than once per rest, it may very well be during difficult fights, or when trying to cross a large map.

DinsdalePiranha

haste got nerfed to shreds between IWD and IWDEE - originally, it DOUBLED the number of attacks and then hit you with mad fatigue, now it gives one puny little extra attack, and still messes everybody up.

it's a shame, because blitzkrieging the hell out of every area with haste + unfailing endurance was a hell lot of fun.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

@Lord_Tansheron‌

Spell damage needs a serious buff.

Running melee trains is fun the first 20 times, then it becomes boring.

Lord_Tansheron

@TvrtkoSvrdlar‌ I think it's more of a symptom of the entire Vancian spell system, which is inherently disadvantaged the longer fights last. The 1 spell/round limitation only further exacerbates that.

I'm honestly not sure what a quick fix to that could be, as simply buffing spell damage could lead to all sorts of other problems (like major obliteration of non-HoF modes by casters).

oldgamer518

Maple said:

What is your choice of Level 3 spell for a sorcerer? And the priority?

I choose Haste, Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius and Melf's Minute Meteors.

I believe Haste is important for sorcerer to take as it severely improves everyone's combat ability.

Personally, I consider haste "cheese." Haste abuse runs wild in IE games. In PnP D&D 1st/2nd Edition (Yeah, I'm old) each use of haste ages the character 1 year. Taking this into consideration, most IE parties would die of old age before they reach chapter 2 or 3 of the games.

DreadKhan

oldgamer518 said:

Maple said:

What is your choice of Level 3 spell for a sorcerer? And the priority?

I choose Haste, Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius and Melf's Minute Meteors.

I believe Haste is important for sorcerer to take as it severely improves everyone's combat ability.

Personally, I consider haste "cheese." Haste abuse runs wild in IE games. In PnP D&D 1st/2nd Edition (Yeah, I'm old) each use of haste ages the character 1 year. Taking this into consideration, most IE parties would die of old age before they reach chapter 2 or 3 of the games.

Bah, thats why everyone plays Dwarves, Gnomes and Elves.

Kenji

oldgamer518 said:

Maple said:

What is your choice of Level 3 spell for a sorcerer? And the priority?

I choose Haste, Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius and Melf's Minute Meteors.

I believe Haste is important for sorcerer to take as it severely improves everyone's combat ability.

Personally, I consider haste "cheese." Haste abuse runs wild in IE games. In PnP D&D 1st/2nd Edition (Yeah, I'm old) each use of haste ages the character 1 year. Taking this into consideration, most IE parties would die of old age before they reach chapter 2 or 3 of the games.

I remember an old game named Realmz (originally available on Macintosh) which is somewhat based on AD&D but still had its own little intricate system. Haste (it's called Adrenaline in that game) does pretty much the same thing, it boosted the amount of action your characters can do in a turn but it also makes them age faster.

By the time I realized that, all my characters were already senile and over the age of 100 (they were humans, too) on their character sheets.

Well, looks like this group of skeletons has earned its retirement. Time to create a new group full of young adventurers once again.

oldgamer518

Kenji said:

oldgamer518 said:

Maple said:

What is your choice of Level 3 spell for a sorcerer? And the priority?

I choose Haste, Slow, Skull Trap, Invisibility 10' radius and Melf's Minute Meteors.

I believe Haste is important for sorcerer to take as it severely improves everyone's combat ability.

Personally, I consider haste "cheese." Haste abuse runs wild in IE games. In PnP D&D 1st/2nd Edition (Yeah, I'm old) each use of haste ages the character 1 year. Taking this into consideration, most IE parties would die of old age before they reach chapter 2 or 3 of the games.

I remember an old game named Realmz (originally available on Macintosh) which is somewhat based on AD&D but still had its own little intricate system. Haste (it's called Adrenaline in that game) does pretty much the same thing, it boosted the amount of action your characters can do in a turn but it also makes them age faster.

By the time I realized that, all my characters were already senile and over the age of 100 (they were humans, too) on their character sheets.

Well, looks like this group of skeletons has earned its retirement. Time to create a new group full of young adventurers once again.

For the longest time I've tried to remember the name of an old CRPG I played on MAC. And it's the very one you named. Thanks for that. was a good game for its time.

Zyzzogeton

Haste isn't that spammable in HoF.

Battles last long. Even with faster XP gain giving longer duration Haste. Any battle worth using Haste in will last longer than the duration of Haste. And it really doesn't matter how many times your characters are attacking if your summons drop dead enemies are in your party's face.

Haste might matter in Core Rules, but so do Fireball and Skull Trap. Sure you can Haste your party, or you can take away a huge portion of monster HP and let unhasted attacks handle what's left.

Oh and P&P and Haste?

You didn't really need haste in 2E P&P if your goal was to cheese the game.

Just use Darts, which in 2E P&P meant STR bonus.

Who needs Haste when every Fighter can wield a machine gun.

Also if your P&P campaign reached Level 10+, the DM has to specifically counter spellcasters if the player with one really starts getting creative with their spells.

The way Mages spam Haste in IE games is child's play compared to the stuff P&P Magic Users can do.

Maple

Zyzzogeton said:

Haste isn't that spammable in HoF.

Battles last long. Even with faster XP gain giving longer duration Haste. Any battle worth using Haste in will last longer than the duration of Haste. And it really doesn't matter how many times your characters are attacking if your summons drop dead enemies are in your party's face.
.............

I have tried casting two Hastes consecutively and it goes on as normal. Yes, the third Haste won't work. But two Hastes is enough to finish most fights. And I finish the Lizard King group within one Haste.

With math, when most warriors are having 2 APR, it basically means 50% increase of DPS. Even when game is near the end for an Archer having 5 APR, it still brings 20% increase of DPS. In the whole game no other buffs can match Haste with this substantial increase of damage output except Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Both suffer from fatigue when they end. But I haven't mention the strategy advantage coming with the doubled movement speed.

Sure you can only cast it when you are going to sleep. This disadvantage can be neglected in comparison with the benefits. Or as it's the last you cast, you can call it the Last Resort.

I took the advice previously mentioned and let my F/M/T have Haste prepared, which make me choose Invisibility 10' Radius for my sorcerer's first level 3 spell.

Not sure what P&P campaign means, but I am discussing this thing in the IWD:EE HoF mode context.

oldgamer518

Maple said:

Zyzzogeton said:

Haste isn't that spammable in HoF.

Battles last long. Even with faster XP gain giving longer duration Haste. Any battle worth using Haste in will last longer than the duration of Haste. And it really doesn't matter how many times your characters are attacking if your summons drop dead enemies are in your party's face.
.............

I have tried casting two Hastes consecutively and it goes on as normal. Yes, the third Haste won't work. But two Hastes is enough to finish most fights. And I finish the Lizard King group within one Haste.

With math, when most warriors are having 2 APR, it basically means 50% increase of DPS. Even when game is near the end for an Archer having 5 APR, it still brings 20% increase of DPS. In the whole game no other buffs can match Haste with this substantial increase of damage output except Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Both suffer from fatigue when they end. But I haven't mention the strategy advantage coming with the doubled movement speed.

Sure you can only cast it when you are going to sleep. This disadvantage can be neglected in comparison with the benefits. Or as it's the last you cast, you can call it the Last Resort.

I took the advice previously mentioned and let my F/M/T have Haste prepared, which make me choose Invisibility 10' Radius for my sorcerer's first level 3 spell.

Not sure what P&P campaign means, but I am discussing this thing in the IWD:EE HoF mode context.

P&P = Pen and Paper

B4nJ0

Improved haste is insane and game over in HoF. No enemy can match the dps of the party after you got 6x improved haste for rest with your sorcerer.

After that, in a party of 6 good dual classed fighter you will have almost 50atk/round with them and you will burst down any fight without summoning or cc.


HoF was a bit too boring with improved haste and invisibility 9 radius. Well, time to go back to bg2 untill we got some decent mod, I guess. Or BAN your sorcerer for HoF run, I feel it that cheese.

oldgamer518

Zyzzogeton said:

Haste isn't that spammable in HoF.

Battles last long. Even with faster XP gain giving longer duration Haste. Any battle worth using Haste in will last longer than the duration of Haste. And it really doesn't matter how many times your characters are attacking if your summons drop dead enemies are in your party's face.

Haste might matter in Core Rules, but so do Fireball and Skull Trap. Sure you can Haste your party, or you can take away a huge portion of monster HP and let unhasted attacks handle what's left.

Oh and P&P and Haste?

You didn't really need haste in 2E P&P if your goal was to cheese the game.

Just use Darts, which in 2E P&P meant STR bonus.

Who needs Haste when every Fighter can wield a machine gun.

Also if your P&P campaign reached Level 10+, the DM has to specifically counter spellcasters if the player with one really starts getting creative with their spells.

The way Mages spam Haste in IE games is child's play compared to the stuff P&P Magic Users can do.

I can't comment on HoF mode as I've never played it. I am mainly commenting on players who follow the following routine EVERY TIME they have an encounter.
(1) Haste party
(2) fight/indiscriminately unload entire spell books on opponents, be it goblins or dragons
(3) REST
(4) haste party
(5) see 2
(6) see 3, etc etc.

bob_veng

^
yeah...that's why the game should have had resting limited with some smart trick. i've always wished there'd be a mod for that, but nobody ever thought it's a good idea apart from me it seems.

oldgamer518

bob_veng said:

^
yeah...that's why the game should have had resting limited with some smart trick. i've always wished there'd be a mod for that, but nobody ever thought it's a good idea apart from me it seems.

Everyone can play according to his own style. For myself, I absolutely refuse to allow my spell casters to memorize haste. I will cast it from scrolls and use oil of speed. But I don't use it as a memorized spell.

bob_veng

i haste and just rest all the time and pretend time passes slower than it does when you rest. so if 100 days have passed and i'm not even halfway through the game i'll just imagine 20 days have passed (yeah i have this 20% formula).

but even that i don't do anymore, i just don't bother myself with it.

i still wish time figured in more strategically, however.

edit: they should have put food rations in the game. you can spend only so many days out of town before you run out of provisions. (also can't hoard infinite provisions in the bag of holding because it irradiates food with nasty pocket plane background magic radiation)