Pure Kensai
DreadKhan
Member Posts: 3,857
Considering how much DR gear there is kicking around, any reason Kensai wouldn't do fine pure? Starting out would be rougher, but Barkskin/armour spells can cover until you get the right gear. The sheer damage would be handy, and with a vanilla bard, you can probably manage 50% DR vs everything, and depending on if you get the Bonebelt, you can probably bump to 100% vs slashing. Can you still throw axes? Would be useful early.
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It's worth noting that Skald song gives an AC bonus from level 1.
Barskin definitely a great spell for him, also he has potions of defense which sets ac to 0 for 10 hours, cards of blur (which can be found in dragon's eye), wolf's amulet and ring +2.
If you want to give him a bonebelt then you probable should set his alignment to Neutral (I made a mistake here ;( )
Overall he is pretty hardy, I can't call him a glass cannon.
Going from 19 (Half-Orc) STR to 25 (DuHM+RM at lvl 9) is +4 thaco/+7 damage. You'd need a 21 Kensai to get that damage (or was it 22 I can never remember...). Of course it's not permanent, but then again you also get a ton of other buffs you can use.
Haven't tested either (yet), but just going by the numbers... Hm...
Pure kensai can cast many buffs too, from cards of blur and buffs, from potions of strength, yet still is outmatched by duals.
But pure kensai's is still good and surprisingly hardy damage dealer in IWD:EE
Iirc, there is the odd str boosting item (I remembrr a ring), so your hardest hitter will have at least 20 str. The pure Kensai is also going to have more profs to play with, so his off hand will probably hit harder for what its worth, if its a different.
For max damage, a Kensage using Iron Body dualed late would hit pretty hard iirc.
I do believe there is a Morning Star of Action, at least it's in the game files. It may be part of a random treasure, I haven't checked. My knowledge of the original game is limited. OH extra proff is such a marginal increase it's statistically almost irrelevant. I left out the +1 STR in the comparison because there's also the first two Kensai bonuses from being lvl 7+ when you dual, and that just about cancels out.
Gotta look into the weapon selection issue more, I am not completely versed in all the endgame options. I'd really love a spot for another crushing damage dealer, but I'm not sure how much you lose out on by not being able to use swords.
Point being nothing tops Kensai damage in the long run. Not to mention at epic levels they can literally hit anything without even trying.
But if you're talking about Kensai/Clerics... I wouldn't bother. Sure you can make up for most short-comings with spells, but you limit the kensai's massive weapon selection for DuHM... and why even bother with righteous magic when Kai can basically do the same thing but without the HP buff? Really you'd just be a fighter cleric who can't wear armor and has a bit of a to hit and damage buff from kensai levels. A berserker/cleric is much better
12 avg. damage: Bhaal's Fire+3 (1d8+3+2d4) - Long Sword
11 avg. damage: Fire Flail+3 (1d6+4+(0.5*2d6)) - Flail
10.35 avg. dmg: Skullflail+4 (1d6+4+1d4+(0.1*1d6)) - Flail
[if I missed something/screwed up math/the list, let me know!!]
As you can see, two weapons there are cleric-allowed, and the crushing damage + the large elemental component on Fire Flail is actually quite attractive considering damage resistances. The actual issue, I believe, arises from the off-hand, as it's still not clear to me whether/where you can find the Morning Star of Action - it's in the game files, but either I didn't find it on my first playthrough or I was stupid and missed it (curse the game for having all the same graphics on everything!). Kai doesn't add 1 STR/3 levels, which RM does. That's actually the more important part, the max damage is just icing on the cake. With DuHM + RM you get to 25 STR very easily, which (as I mentioned earlier) is quite the thac0/damage increase. Yes, you essentially trade armor for some damage/thac0 buffs, and the ability to Kai in between RM uses. That's not a WHOLE lot, but neither is the ability to wear armor, considering it doesn't increase your damage (bracers do, but I don't think there are enough of them to not be able to use them on someone else instead and retain overall damage parity). Berserker Rage, on the other hand, doesn't do a whole lot in HoF because the fight lasts so long you spend practically all your winded period fighting (essentially negating the damage gain), and hardly ever come across effects that the immunities would matter against (since casters are trivially easy to interrupt in IWD, and fairly rare to begin with).
So the question is, how much do you intend to rely on your armor? Can you tank well enough with your tank/your summons to keep the Kensai from taking too many hits? And is the effort of doing that worth the +2 dmg/thac0? I'm uncertain, but I think it's something worth exploring.
By the time they hit level 9 Kensai already get a +3 to hit and +3 to damage, which is ideal to dual-class at in most scenarios. This means that a kensai/cleric would presumably have this same boost. However come level 12 the Kensai gets a +4 to hit and +4 to damage; with that boost, plus a potion that can boost your strength to 21/25 (based on which you use), the overall difference becomes miniscule when compared to a fighter/cleric or a kensai/cleric of the same level; which means that for the kensai/cleric to get more powerful you have to level up higher, but the kensai gets more boosts as he levels up higher too, which again, makes the differences miniscule. I'm not even taking into consideration the +3/4 longswords that boost your APR here, which no form of fighter/cleric can use because of their ban of edged weaponry. Along with the lack of armor this really hurts the kensai/cleric in the long run. You'd basically have to do what a normal kensai has to do, which is have magical armors constantly cast on you for fights or use defensive potions, which other than Stone Form I have yet to encounter any.
And then we compare this to the berserker/cleric. The berserker/cleric gets roughly the same bonuses as a level 6 kensai, can boost his strength with spells, and gets invulnerability to practically half the status-ailments in the game (if not more). On top of the AC and HP boost while raging, and the ability to wear plate armor, they already have more survivability than a Kensai/Cleric. On top of it all? Early levels they can use missile weapons. Not even Kensai can do that (pretty sure they took out throwing weapons from the Kensai's available weapons list). So Kensai already suffer heavy competition compared to a berserker/cleric of the same level. The only choice then would be to dual-class at level 13 Kensai, where his hit and damage boost double that of a berserk/cleric when he's raging.
This means that by the time you get those levels back, a good stretch of the game is already cleared up, unless you force grind. Is it worth it? Doubtful.
Kai boosts Katanas by 2 points more than Longswords/Morningstars. I doubt Katanas sre going to be better long term, when magic items get stronger.
HoF fights don't have to take more than a turn unless you didn't bring any caster support. Bah, I'm off topic in my own thread! Berserkers immunities and use of ranged trumps Kensai for low levrl dualling, and ffs, a Kensai is supposed to melee in HoF without DR gear and NOT get killed in less then a turn?? I seem to be missing something.
Nah, dualing a kensai at 9th in HoF is terrible. You tripping over XP, and 13th is subdtantially stronger than 9th, while a berserker dual is just plain better at lower levels. Pure kensai wielding DR weapons is better in HoF than 'high damage'.
And yes I do use missile weapons early in the game for any class if I can. They give you roughly the same thac0 number at low level as a melee weapon you specialize in will give you. AND you get to keep your distance away from enemies AND abuse the fact that some enemies have to rush your face; There's a reason why archers are so powerful in this game.
You also mentioned immunities, and the biggest ones would be stun and hold. Also heard that level drain *IS* incorporated in this game, so there's that too. Not sure of how many enemies spam confusion or charm later on, but so far it's just an issue that's a "better safe than sorry" deal. Some enemies also use feeblemind, which is another immunity that raging grants; something that my own kensai has been struck by a couple times.
fighter lvl 7+ = 3/2 APR, +1 from dual-wielding = 5/2 APR, +3/2 from Grand Mastery = 4 APR, +1 from APR weapon = 5 APR = maximum.
It's only without the +APR weapon (or ring) that you end up at 9/2 APR in the end. I can recall several parts that take longer to do, like the aforementioned 20-Wights in Dragon's Eye, or several parts of the Severed Hand, or the rooms with trolls and spider in Dragon's Eye. I suppose you could always kite everything to the zone entrance and zone out every time your Rage ends, and wait a minute between each fight for winded to wear off - which in turn reduces your overall efficiency. And that's the whole point about min/maxing, isn't it? Doing the most in the shortest time possible? Because obviously it's possible to beat the game even in HoF with pretty much whatever you want, if you're just persistent enough. That's not why we discuss these things though, right? Oh, so you only need 223 * party size of those mobs to get to lvl 13. Piece of cake. That's about as high as XP goes, 5k-8k; nothing compared to BG where monsters can give upward of 10k and there's things like per-character quest xp, scroll xp, trap/lock xp, etc. And even THERE I don't dual at 13 because it's horribly XP-inefficient for what you get from it. The reason Archers are powerful is because their damage actually scales upward as you level; and they are in fact not THAT powerful considering the tons of missile resistance all around, and the fact that there is a dearth of good ammo (barely enough for one, hardly for more). Anyway, before we digress, the reason you use ranged is so you don't get hit, BUT you can achieve the same result by having a proper tank. I have no trouble going through most of early game taking minimal hits, it's pretty easy to tank things in this game (even easier once you get summons). Where do you actually get hit by these things though? "Safe than sorry" is an argument to guard against unpredictable situations, but this game is scripted and predictable to the extreme. You know exactly what you face where and when, there is no need to have tools ready just in case when you know you can't be surprised. That's like saying you're making a certain move in chess just in case a piece suddenly teleports around - it just doesn't happen, unless you let the opponent do it :P That's pretty much the same here, casters will cast Hold Person ONLY if you let them, and it is absolutely trivial to not let them. I have literally not had it cast successfully against me EVER in this game. There's also some undead who have touch attacks that can paralyze etc., but you can tank those easily with someone either immune (like a B->C tank) or irrelevant (like a summon). To have a damage dealer get hit by an unavoidable/difficult to avoid CC effect... that is something that I just have not had happen. Anywhere. If you have, please elaborate! As for Feeblemind, Heal cures that no problem; and it happens in like one place (Dragon's Eye) and only if you're not careful AND miss the save (not to mention you'd have to get your Berserker hit in the first place and not someone else AND have Rage up already).
...what? Yeah, you are going to be short of XP if uou jusy 'avoid' threats. This is fine in BG, with xp caps being low, its standard fare for solos. Having immunity for a tank is very, very handy vs Undead especially. No clue where you are going with this actually, can you elaborate??
13th gets extra +1s, 1/2 apr and proficiency. I know IWD has lots of removed equip. Just check with with an editor (NI?) but I don't think its there. Could be, but I'd still prefer 9/2 apr doing more damage vs 5 doing less. Ymmv, but the math isnt exactly on sided.
HoF has ridicilous xp levels. Plenty to do a 13th level dual. Both our positions on this are pure opinion, so frankly arguing it is silly.
You can be confused by Myconoids iirc. Umber Hulks. Etc. Dorn's Deep had plenty of infuriating enemies a Berserker will make less tedious/dangerous.
@OlvynChuru yeah, thats exactly what I was thinking. Kensai sounds more viable in IWDEE than BG, and thus more fun.
Not to mention that answering "just use all spell casters" is not exactly helpful when the discussion was about finishing in time for Rage not to wear off :P Obviously not talking about a tank here, but a damage dealer. Seems a bit at odds with chain-fireballs, too... Not sure where the "avoiding threats" part comes from, I was talking about avoiding getting HIT, not skipping sources of XP. And I'm talking about a K->C as a damage dealer here, obviously, not as a tank. For tank I'm using a B7->C for sure (it would be sort of stupid to tank without armor wouldn't it). It does seem like the MSoA is not in the game for some reason (but two of the same SWORDS of Action are...). That is annoying for sure, but it's a 1/2 APR loss only and not THAT big a deal. It still doesn't make me want to go 13, 1m XP is too steep a price for the fairly minor gains.
[EDIT: As it turns out, while the MSoA is not in the game, there ARE two +1 APR Flails available. So a K->C *can* in fact use an APR offhand] I don't think elaboration is wasted on that topic. It's something that is important to lots of people, and presenting the arguments properly can help them make their own decision (whichever it may be). I stand by my opinion that the gains are not worth the VERY steep XP cost. 1m XP to get to 13 plus another odd-million to regain levels puts you very far into the game, even in HoF (like... Upper Dorn's or something thereabouts? Depends on party size, possibly even later with 6). Considering that endgame is already made easier by having access to powerful equipment and spells, I think it's inefficient to go for fairly small gains in that bracket. Why do you disagree with that? What benefit do you believe you are afforded by dualing at 13 that makes the cost worth it (I mean, not what do you gain, I know what you gain, but why do you think gaining that is good enough to warrant the XP cost). All of those can be eaten by the tank, simply by walking into sight with her first. If your damage dealers get hit by a confusing gaze attack from those enemies, you're not paying attention or you're not scouting. The same goes for pretty much every other such effect I've ever seen in the game - and it's no surprise, given that to be able to block something with Rage you have to pre-empt it, and if you pre-empt it then you can also avoid it pretty much every time.
You seem to be underestimating how many spells per day you can drop with 4 arcane casters. You can also tripple up on webs, or Chaos spells, or use Delayed Blast Fireballs, or Horrid Wilting, etc. Incendiary Cloud works well, Cloudkill, etc. It works, but you might not like it.
Length of battles can be adjusted obviously by killing swarms more quickly, hence making the 1 turn length low troublesome. This seems pretty self evident.
Just checked an admittedly old source, but Fast Flail was a random loot, dunno if a 2nd was added that is not random. Either way, its a +2 item, so yeah, the one offhand swing isn't doing much damage, I still prefer 1/2 less attack for much better damage or better equipped abilities. The Defender hammer is much better offhand.
The reason its a silly argument imho is that the big counter of 'it takes too long!' is weak, as you are still getting a useable character as long as you don't dual to fighter. By level 5, a mage has useful spells, a cleric can Animate Dead, and a Thief can use his skills to some effect. Its like playing a new PC. Hitting the recovery level will again be like playing a new PC. I agree it can go too fsr (very high level duals are too much usually, unless they sllow a very cool new build), but 13th isn't too high.
Really? Eaten by the confused tank? Not always, I've had those fights go south. Confusion is very powerful, so is stun. Most people HATE things like Bombardier Beetles for a reason. Berserkers are the easy button for lots of infuriating combats, and unlike Barbarians, can dual.
If you prefer defensive OHs, you're getting hit more than you should. I don't want to rely on damage reduction because I don't plan on taking damage I can't handle. As I said, sooo much damage is actually avoidable, it seems a waste to be lazy and take safety items over more damage. Even as a poor naked Kensai you can take the odd hit or two if you really can't avoid it, but I can't remember a source of unavoidable damage significant enough to warrant use of a defensive OH. Again, you're mistaking the intent of min/maxing. It's not about being "usable", it's about is A better than B, and why/how. Sure you're not completely useless during downtime, that is never and has never been the question. The question is, is the hit in performance while getting to 13 resp. 14 worth the gains afterwards. I argue it is not, largely because the 1/2 APR is wasted due to the availability of a cleric-usable +APR OH (see above). If you think you know of an OH that adds more damage than a +APR, please tell me which (also see above). "Lots of" seems a gross exaggeration. There may be a FEW fights that can POTENTIALLY go wrong. During my first playthrough there was a SINGLE time I got hit by a CC effect I didn't intend to eat. All the Umber Hulks, Myconids, etc. I could perfectly bait into firing on the tank, as they are quite predictably scripted. Where do stuns come in, by the way? I can't really remember any, anywhere. Some paralyze from undead, yes, the aforementioned confusion hits... but stuns? I might just be forgetting...
Anyway, I do see the value of Berserker Rage - on the TANK. I think that on a damage dealer, it's better to go for the Kensai. Doubly so now that it's clear you can use a +APR OH on a K->C, and I'm also getting a lot better at tanking. I'm currently testing a new setup including this combo, and have had no trouble at all not getting hit by things I can't handle. The odd arrow here and there, and that's it. So it really is pretty much free damage, just waiting to hit someone!
As whole thread goes off topic, I have one question: are enemies in how vulnerable to web spells and such, as in original?
As for Web, it appears that it only works on creatures with a unit circle no bigger than your own. Anything with a bigger circle is considered a "large creature" and immune to Web.
Chaos CAN kill enemies, it causes confusion remember? It can win group fights by itself.
Wait, you're the one saying HoF fights 'take forever', making Berserker rage pointless, and rely on melee, yet you never, ever, EVER get hit in HoF mode despite not relying on magic??? Somethings not right here. Seriously. You're very self-contradictory, but it could be you're just being pointlessly vague. Either fights drag on endlessly and have a higher risk of getting hit, or they don't, especially if you aren't spamming spell damage. You haven't said much about summons, either.
As for your silly Speed Weapon for 1/2 an apr: Fastflail averages 6.5 damage. Even the Defender hammer does 7.5, the Morningstar does 9. Both can hit as +4 weapons, so no Weapon Ineffectives. For a stronger hitting offhand, Shock Flail does good damage and can stun, Fireflail does good damage. Demonbreath can clear up mobs quickly. Dualing at 13 means you get another +1 as well. Seeing as you insist I can't use arcane spells to clear out mobs, you shouldn't be buffing your str via spells. If I do allow it, its still only 1/2 an attack. Feel free to offer some actual numbers here, you're the one that lead us off on dual to cleric business.
...are you serious? If its an issue of 'which is better', its thr highest lvl dual you can pull off. 13 isn't as bad as you're saying. Being saddled with a gimp off-hand to make up for your rushed DC is absurd. You are arguing your 100% subjective opinion that despite worse numbers, dualing at 9 is better.
Anyone want to go back on topic with Single Class Kensai??
And as for "relying on magic" - how can you misconstrue this so savagely? I never said I wasn't using any magic of any kind ever. Heck, this WHOLE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT ME SAYING TO DUAL TO CLERIC. Of course I'm relying on magic, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT. The one thing I'm reluctant to employ is DAMAGE spells, because I believe that they're very rarely efficient enough (there are some situations where they are, but not enough in the grand scheme of things). That's not talking in any way about buffs, debuffs, CC, etc., which I use liberally, and in fact based this entire discussion around (i.e. K->C over pure Kensai). I really am hard to offend, but this looks to me like you're just trying to insult me. I think I've been quite specific about things, I've mentioned specific situations, items, numbers. Every time you answer however you go off in a different direction, and *I'M* the one being "pointlessly vague"? Excuse me? Ok so, have you actually done the math as I laid it out or are you just guessing? Because you're simply ignoring that "silly speed" you get, which translates AT LEAST into 1/2 extra MH APR (assuming you compare it to a 13). You know what 50% of a good MH is in damage? About 5. So follow me as I do some simple arithmetic and go 6.5+5 = 11.5, and please show me an offhand that does that much damage, thank you very much. Oh wait, there isn't one. Fancy that. Are you just not even listening to the core of the argument? Do you even know what +APR does, and why it's so good? Yes. And you also get some other stuff that's good. You're absolutely right, comparing the values of 9 to 13, 13 has more. SHOCKER! Was that ever the question? Hardly. Because you don't just get those values for free, they come at a cost - a very real, very steep cost. You need FIVE TIMES the XP to get to 13 than you to get to 9, and THEN a ton of XP again to regain the levels. And all that for +1 dmg/thac0? A bargain deal if I ever saw one! Now you're again just being needlessly misleading and derisive. You can use whatever the hell you want, I'm just arguing that it's less efficient, not that's impossible, or disallowed, or whatever. And how you arrive at the mindboggling conclusion there is beyond my comprehension. I'm saying "damage spells are inefficient", so your answer is "fine, then you don't get to buff either!". How does that translate?
What actual numbers would you like? Damage calculations? Damage/time functions? Spell scroll availability numbers? I've mentioned the XP required for 13 dual, I've mentioned the way APR work with 13/APR weapons, I've given comparisons between STR buffs and passive damage... If you have a specific request for numbers, I'll be happy to oblige. But please be specific, don't just go "you don't give numbers!". And while we're at it, could YOU provide some numbers, please? Like, what spells you have on those hybrid casters of yours, and how much damage they deal as a function of the respective caster levels. I'd be very interested in those numbers, as you've obviously had more experience than me using damage spells in HoF. That would be because you're constantly assuming you just get everything for free. I never said 13 was worse per numbers, I was saying it was worse per XP efficiency. The cost to get what you do get is too steep, for reasons I've outlined several times (see a few posts above for my numbers on wasted APR gains). The game is not about what you do at lvl 25, it's about what you do from lvl 1 to the end, and that's a non-linear process with many variables involved. Simply reducing it to simplified assumptions like "you're swimming in XP anyway" and such is at best careless and at worst misleading. Isn't this what we're discussing? That was the origin anyway, single class Kensai vs. Kensai->Cleric dual. I'm more than happy to go back to that issue, and my original arguments in the matter still stand.
As I stated long ago, by far hands down the fastest wsy to clear out a mob is AoE spell damage. One caster can easily deal out more than 2 Fighters can in a round, though it will be spread out. Hence having many casters dropping A-bombs at once. *shrug* I love melee builds, but melee damage is ssslllooowww vs tough mobs. I happen to agree thst vs one big easy to hit enemy, melee is better.
Its not my fault you feel insulted, blame your inconsistent strategy. You can't argue speedy victory AND argue 'fights take forever'. And no, I am not gallivanting off on tangents. Passive aggressive much? If you're unwilling to add up how much damage a fireball does total for 20 Wights, I'm not sure you are equipped for this conversation. Hint: its more than a fighter can do! See below though, I did some really easy caster math for you.
On to damage from melee discussion... your making lightmof that extra +1 is funny, because you later say he difference is 'about 5'. Meaning, the 13th level, in addition to a +5% hit rate (assuming you'll miss on a very low non 1 roll), his hits each do +1 damage. Meaning he's pretty near equal on damage even if his off-hand doesn't do ANY more damage on its one attack. Note, I pointed out some strong defensive also cleric useable weapons that did more damage than the fast fail, meaning even with non-offense based weapons, you still come out ahead, not even counting the resistances, which include +15% MR from the hammer. Not exactly irrelevant. If you use a more powerful offensive weapon, like the Shock Flail you will fall further behind. But don't let that stop you, dual where you see fit, its still a question of opinion. I like my characters to be a bit better, you like more challenging weaker ones. Incidently, we both have been forgetting the best Cleric spell in IWD somehow, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful. Which favours those not using a speed weapon obviously. *shrug*
Whst numbers?? Really? If you want to argue 'X tactic is better than Y', you ought to put numbers up. Thats called proof. Then everyone can pick away st the numbers, and we see whats what. As for scrolls, fine, run 2 Sorcerers. There are plenty of good scrolls for a Bard and two non pure mages. I think you could get by with 1 Sorcerer, but if you think scrolls are THAT rare, fine, you can still use spell damage to do the job. Scroll Availability in IWD was always problematic in the form of not having the desired higher level scrolls soon enough, aka not an issue if you aren't a pure mage. There isn't a shortage of spells a level or 2 below what a pure mage can cast.
Spell numbers??? These are adjudted only by ~2 items iirc. But hey, if you weren't aware, a level 10 caster's Fireball does 10d6, with a save for half. Average is 35, saved is 17.5. If you have 10 Wights you are catching in that, its 175 if they all save. x5 thats 875. If they don't save, thats 1750, and I don't remember HoF in IWD boosting saves, but I could be wrong. IWD2 boosted them to comical heights. Probably more than 1k though is realistic to expect. You can do much better damsge with better spells btw, Delayed Blast iirc can more than double that damage per caster, same with Horrid Wilting. Dropping Incendiary Clouds and Cloudkills with spammed summons to distract (or disabling,spells first) deal pretty big damage too. Skull Traps will often be better than Fireball at higher levels, but there are fire vulnerable enemies in IWD to make it useful still later. Combat damage can't even scratch that.
My favourite HoF character was a Fighter 13 to Thief. Wielding Blood Iron, he was nearly unkillable, and ended up well over lvl 20 for thief. I used him as the focal point of boh enemy aggression and my spells, only had trouble with the Remorhaz. I really don't agree that using Cleric abilities for an extra chapter is a huge burden, but this is opinion. Same as yours. There are no wrong opinions. You trying to argue thst my SUBJECTIVE OPINION is wrong is a bit petty. I have regularly tried to point out that despite being mathematically worse, your opinion is very much that, in return you argue. Not sure who you're trying to convince.
Then we got into this super silly debate with no real meaning behind it. So I answered the original question.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/36798/add-morningstar-of-action-4-to-random-treasure-list