Kits for kitless classes

Senash

I really love playing the sorcerer Even lorewise, I think it's the best bhaalspawn, with his natural magical abilities. Do you think it would be possible to add different sorcerer kits based on their origin?
Like Chaos Sorcerer, Dragon Sorcerer, Storm Sorcerer, Cosmic Sorcerer. I am not so familiar with D&D tbh, I based my initial thought on the forgotten realms wikia article about sorcerers (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer)

Tanthalas

I know that for BGEE only one new kit is confirmed, but I do support adding kits to classes that pretty much didn't have any (Barbarians, Monks, Sorcerers and arguably Mages).

Grammarsalad

I know that for BGEE only one new kit is confirmed, but I do support adding kits to classes that pretty much didn't have any (Barbarians, Monks, Sorcerers and arguably Mages).

agreed

Dazzu

Sorcerer, Barb, Monk multiclass options please!

Senash

Sorcerer, Barb, Monk multiclass options please!

Haven't thought about it before, but yeah Although Monk multi in my mind wouldn't fit well, since becoming a monk is kind of a committment for a life, isn't it? But it could work, yeah

smeagolheart

There wouldn't be much reason to be a mage if sorcerors were so unlocked that could multi and dual into them.

Also what do you get with as a really strong Barbarian/Thief in an age undreamed of.

Dazzu

A Barb/Thief is far worse than a Kensai/Thief.

Aliteri

There wouldn't be much reason to be a mage if sorcerors were so unlocked that could multi and dual into them.

Currently, the only reason to be a mage or a mage variant is if you want to use a greater variety of spells thorought your adventure. As a example, a Sorcerer might not memorize Sleep because its a spell that is already useless by Baldur's Gate 2, but a Mage can have the fun of casting Sleep thorought Baldur's Gate 1 without any consequence.

Another rather common case is of spells growing useless because a better version exists in higher spell levels where you don't really have much choice, meaning that depending on how much a cares about the long term goal (his final spell list) he might not be able to do certain thins early on.

Anton

forgotten realms wikia article about sorcerers (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer)

Great sugestion, @Senash!
The more I read about this different sorcerer's kits the more I liked this idea. I have already imagened how each of this kits can be implemented in BG and what abilities can be assigned to them (Storm & Cosmic sorcerers can get some spells from cleric&druid schools, Chaos sorcerer may receive Nahal's Reckless Dweomer and additional points in daggers and two weapons fight, etc..).
I strongly advice devs to consider this suggestion.. at least for BG2EE if there is not much time left to implement.

P.S. Hope @CameronTofer & @PhillipDaigle will notice this topic

Senash

There wouldn't be much reason to be a mage if sorcerors were so unlocked that could multi and dual into them.

Currently, the only reason to be a mage or a mage variant is if you want to use a greater variety of spells thorought your adventure. As a example, a Sorcerer might not memorize Sleep because its a spell that is already useless by Baldur's Gate 2, but a Mage can have the fun of casting Sleep thorought Baldur's Gate 1 without any consequence.

Another rather common case is of spells growing useless because a better version exists in higher spell levels where you don't really have much choice, meaning that depending on how much a cares about the long term goal (his final spell list) he might not be able to do certain thins early on.

Also another case is that if you need a certain spell for a certain situation, but would never use it otherwise, with the mage, you can change your spells, get a rest and be done with it (yes, you can use a scroll too, IF you have one ready or know where to get it). Another advantage of the mage is that they can cast more spells altogether than a sorcerer, so if you plan beforehand and know what to do, a mage can be oretty badass. Some people still like it better than the sorcerer, since while it may not be as good for unexpected situation, if you are well prepared it might be even more versatile than a sorc. And I know it's quite redundant, but let's not forget the XP you get as a mage from learning spells.

EpitomyofShyness

I support any expansion of Sorcerer's as they are hands down my favorite class.

MERLANCE

Multiclass Mage/Sorceror would be fun Arcane Doom of Death.

I support the notion of Sorc/barb/monk kits.

smeagolheart

A Barb/Thief is far worse than a Kensai/Thief.

Tell that to Conan

trinit

oh yes! sorcerers kits along with kits for monks (remember IWD2 kits for monks?), improved mages specialisation and more cleric options.
that is not too much to ask, right? please developers say this is not an issue! :P

Tanthalas

Well, IWD2 didn't really have kits for Monks, the only difference between each Monk order was which other class you could "multi-class" into without being prevented from advancing your Monk levels. Same thing for Paladins.

Only Clerics actually had differences when selecting a deity.

Spartacus

I would love to see this change implemented. I especially like the "Chaos Sorcerer." Wild Mages are an absolute blast to play - it would be pretty awesome for the Sorcerer to have the same style of unpredictability from their spells

smeagolheart

Well, IWD2 didn't really have kits for Monks, the only difference between each Monk order was which other class you could "multi-class" into without being prevented from advancing your Monk levels. Same thing for Paladins.

Only Clerics actually had differences when selecting a deity.

I wouldn't mind kit's for monks even if the difference was very minor or there was no difference. It's still cool for RP purposes to look on your character sheet and see a "Monk of the Old Order" as opposed to only "Monk"

trinit

@Tanthalas: that's right, there were no real difference except multiclassing, i forgot...

but i agree with @smeagolheart. if everything else fails it it still nice to see the illusion of difference through the alignment restricted names for orders.

Grammarsalad

well I'd like to see a difference like some spell like or rogue like abilities for say a dark moon or old order monk in place of some normal abilities but yeah, I'd like to see some monk, sorcerer and barbi kits (ohhh, savage limited weapon selection, no armor but maybe slightly better rage or fighting skills and able to poison darts just a quick example

Anton

@PhillipDaigle can you give us (sorcerer lovers) a hint?
Do you consider adding this amazing kits? Perhaps in BG2EE?

Dumuzii

Sorcerer, Barb, Monk multiclass options please!

This please

Wisp

Given that Sorcerers are not part of AD&D, I imagine WotC would be fussy about letting them into the AD&D rules about multiclassing (i.e., even if Overhaul wants to do it, they may choose not to pursue it due to time constraints and other such factors).
Barbarians are not a class, but a kit (albeit a unusually hardcoded kit) made to look like a class in the GUI. 'Course, you can choose to look upon the kit aspect as a shortcut Bioware took during implementation and say that you should be able to make a Barbarian multi-class, same as you can with Fighters.
Only humans can be Monks (won't be changed due to the animations); humans cannot multi-class (part of the AD&D rules; unlikely to change due to WotC). Since Monks are also from 3E, they may run into the same problems as Sorcerers, which could impede any plans to allow Monks to dual-class.

recklessheart

I'm a firm believer than not all kit classes have to be drastically different from their base class. Therefore, I don't think Sorcerer kits would necessarily have to have a massive affect on the playstyle of the character, but they would help enrich the feel of the class - does anybody else agree?

Overhaul probably already has plans to include Sorcerer kits (though honestly I have no idea). But I thought typical heritages should be the optional kits, offering slightly different benefits depending on the heritage.

Typical heritages that come to mind are; Draconic, Fey, Elemental

Tanthalas

Merged the topics because a similar request was already made.

The_New_Romance

Hey everyone,

did a short search but didn't find anything pertaining to these features. If it has been brought up, please just tell me

Several classes in BG2 didn't have class kits - namely the Barbarian, Sorcerer and Monk. They were new classes, and maybe somewhat "hybrid" between 2E and 3E rules. I know time is short until September 21st, but what about adding kits for these former kitless classes? I think it would make a fine addition as a post-launch DLC.

I don't know whether there existed actual kits in 2E for those classes (probably not). If there were, Overhaul could use them as a starting point. If not, here are some suggestions (and feel free to add your own):

Barbarian:
1. "Warchanter": A barbarian who is a primal artist. Limited bard skills, maybe a group buff so as to simulate war chants, drumming and the like.
2. "Shaman": A barbarian with a cross-over to the Druid class. Maybe give summons, healing, or some nature spells.
3. "City Dweller" (for lack of a better name): Either a barbarian who has lived in civilized areas for a long time or a civilized person who has been part of a Barbarian tribe (think modern-day antrophologists). Could receive more weapon proficiencies, or the ability to wear better armor.


Monk:
One way to do it would be to copy the Priest way. Have a good, neutral and evil order available (say, Yellow Rose, Long Death and Changeless Face), depending on alignment. Give them some special skills.


Sorcerer:
1. "Elementalist": Receives bonus to elemental spells, maybe also elemental resistances.
2. "Channeler": Receives bonus to mind control, fear and morale spells, maybe some resistances.
3. "Savant": Able to learn spells from scrolls, but gets less slots.


These are just rough ideas. I've only posited kit advantages, not their drawbacks. This is on purpose, I don't think I'm good at balancing and I don't want to wreck my own suggestions by moving the focus from the idea itself to some self-created crappy balancing implementations. Whether some of this is over- or underpowered or in which way it would have to be balanced is left open, I just wanted to present some food for thought.

Also, I fear there might well be hard-coded problems present to such additional kits. I'm not sure about this, but maybe keep it in mind. Just wishful thinking, in that case

Tanthalas

I'm pretty sure that adding kits for these classes is somewhere already (probably in a new kit request).

Overhaul only promised 1 new kit for BGEE, so its unlikely that we'll see kits for all of these classes at launch. Post-launch is anyone's guess though.

Personally, I think that your Warchanter and Shaman suggestions make Barbarians too similar to a Bard or Ranger. Making kits for a Barbarian is a bit complicated since Barbarians themselves are practically a Fighter kit.

The_New_Romance

Tanthalas said:

Personally, I think that your Warchanter and Shaman suggestions make Barbarians too similar to a Bard or Ranger. Making kits for a Barbarian is a bit complicated since Barbarians themselves are practically a Fighter kit.

Yeah, I know. It ain't easy being creative I contemplated which abilities would make sense from an in-world viewpoint where barbarians are tribal folk up in the mountains. Maybe barbarians don't even need further differentiation, but then I'd say they should become the fighter kit they already seem to be (according to http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Classes_and_Kits#Barbarian).

By the way, if this thread fits into an already existing one, please merge them. I don't want to clutter up the forum.

Tanthalas

I'll merge it once I eventually find it.

shout27

As far as the Sorcerer Savant goes, I'd cut their castable spells a day in half (at the very least). Being able to potentially cast every single wizard spell in the game at any time is a tremendous advantage over a wizard. You literally have access to the counter-spell of any defense he has up at your fingertips.

Corvino

As I see it Barbarian is already a fighter kit and sorcerer is pretty much a mage kit. Monks are already heavily specialised as slow-developing immune-to-everything unarmed combatants. Kits are a way of sub-specialising an existing class. All the kitless classes are very specialist to begin with and unless kits were done very shrewdly I don't see it adding much value.

The_New_Romance

shout27 said:

As far as the Sorcerer Savant goes, I'd cut their castable spells a day in half (at the very least). Being able to potentially cast every single wizard spell in the game at any time is a tremendous advantage over a wizard. You literally have access to the counter-spell of any defense he has up at your fingertips.

That's true. The drawbacks to that would have to be quite considerable. The Savant is the most OP-prone suggestion in my opionion as well, but if balanced might be quite interesting, as a mash-up between mage and sorcerer.