Dual classing and kits for sorcerors? I think that's bad idea. Sorcerors are already very powerfull, in fact, too powerfull in experienced player's hands. I don't want to see Kensai/Sorcerors, for instance.
Dual classing and kits for sorcerors? I think that's bad idea. Sorcerors are already very powerfull, in fact, too powerfull in experienced player's hands. I don't want to see Kensai/Sorcerors, for instance.
That's a players choice though. It's not like there's any PvP, and I'm sure there could be some rebalancing... or mods that can balance things out if it bothers you.
As far as monks are concerned, I can easily 3 kits that take radically different path. A "roguish" monk with limited backstab (concept not too far from ninja I suppose) but limited Hand to Hand damage. A "mage" monk with limited access to either clerical or mage boost spells (only support, no direct damage nor healing... I think it was accessible in NWN II) but with less passive resistance and AC. And a "warrior" monk more oriented like balthazar, who sends people in every corner and with the eyes of the tiger but with less active ability. Those can provide rather unique gameplay experience I'd reckon. And maybe fix monks vulnerability in low-level for BG1EE. But I'm not for multiclassing them. I don't really want to see a cheesy combination pop up.
Why not just move Barbarian class under the Fighter kit tree?
Then again, I had the thought of different "Barbarian Tribes" that could be kits. Each different tribe would enhance resistance to a type of magic instead of the Melee Resistance that would otherwise be gained.
But I think Barbarian should be moved under Fighters as a kit, and just disable their ability to Dual/Multi Class
That's a players choice though. It's not like there's any PvP, and I'm sure there could be some rebalancing... or mods that can balance things out if it bothers you.
I would say that you guys should use mods to accomplish that. And reason for character balance is not something that exists for PvP only.
I believe that if the Overhaul guys can open up the classes so that they become moddable, then they do not need to be the ones to make the changes themselves. If they have restrictions put upon them by WotC like people have mentioned, they could circumvent this by letting the modders do the work and help by making it possible in the first place.
First of all, thanks for the merge @Tanthalas! Second is that I'm also not so sure if allowing classes lik the sorcerer or the be multi or dual classed os a good idea... As I said earlier about the monm for example is that their life style doesnt really allow much deviation from their path, but one could argue with that point, sure. They would also be even more powerful as others mentioned before and they are quite though guys already... That being said I wouldnt really like kits like the so popular cavalier, which make the original class redundant. The only reason I would lkke kits is to be able to have a more colourful gaming experience. And im pretty sure that many people here would agree with me. It would also allow people who prefer a class with no kits so much more than the other classes to pick slightly different kits for for a second or third playthrough.
I think on the issue of Monks, Barbarians, and Sorcerers the cat's out of the bag. The devs made the decision to classify Monk, Barbarian, and Sorcerer as base classes. I would have quibbled with that choice, but it's long past. It's now time to bring these classes in line with all other basic classes. Each one needs kits and suitable multi/dual class options.
I think on the issue of Monks, Barbarians, and Sorcerers the cat's out of the bag. The devs made the decision to classify Monk, Barbarian, and Sorcerer as base classes. I would have quibbled with that choice, but it's long past. It's now time to bring these classes in line with all other basic classes. Each one needs kits and suitable multi/dual class options.
I fully agree with you. I would love to make a chaotic Berserker/Sorcerer multi- or dual-class. It strikes me as odd that a wild fighter such as a Berserker can become a disciplined mage, but not an equally wild sorcerer or even wild mage.
Plenty of room for Barbarian kits. Just think of the iconic barbarians in literature -- or even the phases in life of certain barbarians who seemed to hold a multitude of careers. Or the variety of barbarian-style tribes; the difference between Mongols and Vikings, for example.
A 'hunter' kit might limit them to leather armour, give them a bit of stealth, and a bonus with spears and bows. A rogue-like kit might do something similar, without the weapon changes. A 'champion' kit could steal an idea from some of the old gladiatorial kits, and give the barbarian a bonus to AC when wearing lighter armour, and/or some kind of weapon boost -- one gladatorial kit gave a gladiator a 1x/daily finishing strike, that had bonus to hit and damage based on level.
Or you could always harken back/pay homage to old Gygax-style AD&D: The Mage-Foe. Though they were pretty broken.
Their abilities? Hides in natural surroundings like a ranger/thief, but less proficient. First aid skill (restoring token HP amount). Saving throw boost vs. spells (and poison, if remaining true to old barbarians). Boost to Dex-based AC and Con HP bonus when wearing "non bulky" armour (basically doubling the bonus).
In turn, has serious issues with magi and magic. Reduced use of magic armour and weapons. No use of magic items beyond those. Upside is that he can hit resistant beasties as if he was wielding magic, depending on level.
Pick and choose a few of traits out of the list, and there's an entertaining character ready to go.
I support this, as well as multi-classing/dual-classing for Sorcerers. In fact, classes like fighter/sorcerer makes quite a lot of sense! (a naturally talented sorcerer who trains in combat seems more likely to me than a learned mage being a competent fighter at the same time)
That said, it may be better to make this a moddable option rather than available 'out of the box'.
So long as they add flavour and an interesting touch -- and have some kind of trade off (limitations that might make players choose the basic version, or a different kit), then I think it's a great idea. The more kick a kit has, however, the more restrictive the limitation should be.
So long as they add flavour and an interesting touch -- and have some kind of trade off (limitations that might make players choose the basic version, or a different kit), then I think it's a great idea. The more kick a kit has, however, the more restrictive the limitation should be.
It's not like some kits are already much more powerful than the base classes, sadly. - all paladin kits - berserker only has a minor disadvantage compared to fighters - all cleric kits, of course, since the only "disadvantage" is the alignment restriction
True, true. Being an old-school barbarian fan, I'd love to see kits that move them more toward variety. Hunter/gatherer archetype, Viking/Celt champion template, or Conan/Fafhrd general roguish mage-hating warrior type -- which has basically become it's own archetype in modern fantasy.
For monks, it'd be nice to see them expanded a bit. The Kensai of the fighters would also make a pretty cool wandering Ronin/Samurai type, when combined with the monk class... though it would need tempering, or they'd be insanely broken. Just giving them the ability to use longswords or katanas, and a couple perks on top of that, would likely be enough.
Barbarians I always felt were more heritage than class, but I am sure it can be expanded to fill a certain niche.
I agree completely, but D&D traditionally isn't given toward the kind of subtlety of mechanics that make such distinctions meaningful -- particularly not since the cross-section of tech periods and magic skews things. The archetypical fantasy barbarian doesn't work well when realistically pitted against an army equipped with armouring and weapons technology from the 14th-15th century.
In addition, the class system breaks down training and unique abilities in a pretty blocky way; so it makes sense that if you want a class to have abilities outside the norm, you have to either break it down by kit or class -- and likely both.
Comments
There is a topic dedicated to sorcerers kits: Add Sorcerer Kits
There is a lot to choose from, but sorcerors are taken from 3rd edition, as I recall.
Anyways, I would really really love to see kits for kitless classes
Then again, I had the thought of different "Barbarian Tribes" that could be kits. Each different tribe would enhance resistance to a type of magic instead of the Melee Resistance that would otherwise be gained.
But I think Barbarian should be moved under Fighters as a kit, and just disable their ability to Dual/Multi Class
Second is that I'm also not so sure if allowing classes lik the sorcerer or the be multi or dual classed os a good idea... As I said earlier about the monm for example is that their life style doesnt really allow much deviation from their path, but one could argue with that point, sure. They would also be even more powerful as others mentioned before and they are quite though guys already...
That being said I wouldnt really like kits like the so popular cavalier, which make the original class redundant. The only reason I would lkke kits is to be able to have a more colourful gaming experience. And im pretty sure that many people here would agree with me. It would also allow people who prefer a class with no kits so much more than the other classes to pick slightly different kits for for a second or third playthrough.
A 'hunter' kit might limit them to leather armour, give them a bit of stealth, and a bonus with spears and bows. A rogue-like kit might do something similar, without the weapon changes. A 'champion' kit could steal an idea from some of the old gladiatorial kits, and give the barbarian a bonus to AC when wearing lighter armour, and/or some kind of weapon boost -- one gladatorial kit gave a gladiator a 1x/daily finishing strike, that had bonus to hit and damage based on level.
Or you could always harken back/pay homage to old Gygax-style AD&D: The Mage-Foe. Though they were pretty broken.
Their abilities? Hides in natural surroundings like a ranger/thief, but less proficient. First aid skill (restoring token HP amount). Saving throw boost vs. spells (and poison, if remaining true to old barbarians). Boost to Dex-based AC and Con HP bonus when wearing "non bulky" armour (basically doubling the bonus).
In turn, has serious issues with magi and magic. Reduced use of magic armour and weapons. No use of magic items beyond those. Upside is that he can hit resistant beasties as if he was wielding magic, depending on level.
Pick and choose a few of traits out of the list, and there's an entertaining character ready to go.
That said, it may be better to make this a moddable option rather than available 'out of the box'.
- all paladin kits
- berserker only has a minor disadvantage compared to fighters
- all cleric kits, of course, since the only "disadvantage" is the alignment restriction
That being said, I'd kill for monk kits.
For monks, it'd be nice to see them expanded a bit. The Kensai of the fighters would also make a pretty cool wandering Ronin/Samurai type, when combined with the monk class... though it would need tempering, or they'd be insanely broken. Just giving them the ability to use longswords or katanas, and a couple perks on top of that, would likely be enough.
I also would love Bardic sorcerers that utilise spell casting in the same way sorcerers do.
I think there was a cleric kit made that utilised sorcerer spell casting and I loved that idea too.
Barbarians I always felt were more heritage than class, but I am sure it can be expanded to fill a certain niche.
In addition, the class system breaks down training and unique abilities in a pretty blocky way; so it makes sense that if you want a class to have abilities outside the norm, you have to either break it down by kit or class -- and likely both.
At the beginning at least