Asssassin Poison

MrGoodkat

Hey there,

if you hit a target multiple times with a poisoned weapon, do those poison injections stack?

So hypothetically if you hit a target 5 times within the 5 seconds you have to poison it would you do 5x12 = 60 damage worth of poison ticks over the next few seconds?

elminster

Yes. Also you have 5 rounds to poison a target (not 5 seconds). So you can see how powerful it can be (though undead creatures will be immune to it).

MrGoodkat

It does seem pretty powerful against non-undeads, yes. I'm currently facing the old dilemma of not being able to dual-class INTO Assassin though... and I'm absolutely not willing to use Shadowkeeper or the likes. Afaik the APR progression of pure thieves is horrible so that's not really an option either =(

DreadKhan

MrGoodkat said:

It does seem pretty powerful against non-undeads, yes. I'm currently facing the old dilemma of not being able to dual-class INTO Assassin though... and I'm absolutely not willing to use Shadowkeeper or the likes. Afaik the APR progression of pure thieves is horrible so that's not really an option either =(

Play the game my good man, don't let it play you! You're the DM, if you want to edit something to make the game more fun, by all means do it. Assassin to Fighter is surprisinhly good, Fighter to Assassin is a bit better but hardly outlandishly so. But that said, if you try it and feel dirty, just start over. No big deal.

Shikao

I agree with @DreadKhan‌.
On one side I love Swashbuckler, but my problem with him is that he can't get GM. Therefore in one of playthroughs I plan to do Fighter 7 -> Swashbuckler, because that's the way I want to play =D (contemplating giving Swash Fighter-like APR, but it might be too cheesy

JuliusBorisov

elminster said:

undead creatures will be immune to it

So we have to enjoy with poisoning the undead in BGEE 1&2 before it's fixed there as well...

cbarchuk

I'm running a single class assassin and finding it plenty powerful.

Gotural

Then you can run a Blackguard and enjoy the insane Poison Weapon with Fighter's THAC0 / APR.

And yes, some undeads aren't immune to poison, like Liches.

moody_mage

Your title gave you away evil Yuan-Ti! Go ask your questions about Asssassins from Ssseth instead of the good folk on these boards.

Wowo

MrGoodkat said:

It does seem pretty powerful against non-undeads, yes. I'm currently facing the old dilemma of not being able to dual-class INTO Assassin though... and I'm absolutely not willing to use Shadowkeeper or the likes. Afaik the APR progression of pure thieves is horrible so that's not really an option either =(

A pure assassin in IWD can hit the APR cap I think via a ring and 2 fast/action weapons.

I have a swashbuckler (10)/Mage who I hope to give those items too. Seems that assassin could be a good or even better alternative.

MrGoodkat

I didn't even know there was an APR cap ;O

If you dual-wield with only 1 star in TWF you're gonna have a pretty bad THAC0 though. Although I really love the Assassin theme I'm probably going for a Beserker-13/Thief-30 with 3E sneak attacks in my next run.

DreadKhan

Kensai 13 will be a better hitter than a Berserker... There have been gobs of petty discussions on this, but most tend to favour Berserker for dualing no later than 9th, many say dual at 7 for it. I would think 13 Kensai and Good Ol Backstab will make you pretty happy damage-wise. No armour, but you can cadt Barkskin or certain mage Armour spells to make his defence VERY competetive with a Berserker.

That said, if you want the immunities, Berserker is great obviously. But you won't get a great deal more out of 13th over just dualing at 7th. Rogue THAC0 will be 2 points worse when fully developed, and a few saves will be a bit weaker, but as @Lord_Tansheron‌ has mentioned umpteen times, 13th requires a great deal of XP. If I was running a Kensai, I'd do 13, Berserker, probably 7.

If you DO decide to use a 13th level dual of either kit, I would recommend doing some solo XP grinding... the safest place iirc was resting by the Cold Wights. They can hit a Kensai probably, but not likely a Berserker or Rogue with very good armour. To solo grind, I exported everyone but the guy grinding (at very low levels, I had an escort usually, or for dual to mage) then removed them. Brought them back after and continued adventuring. Imho, the biggest hassle will be the first few rogue levels. Not fun!

For a crazy playthrough, you could do a SA Assassin to Fighter. You get more SA sooner, and your final THAC0 will be very high, plus you get poison weapon and the Assassin +1s.

Anyways, have fun!

Lord_Tansheron

Here I am, ready for my umpteen-and-oneth time! :P

I still maintain that dualing at 13 is a waste in IWD, even for a Kensai. You gain +1 dmg/thac0 from the kit at 13 over 9, but the +1/2 APR you gain is in fact wasted a lot of the time. Because:

Lvl 9 fighter = 3/2 APR
+ 1 APR from dual wielding = 5/2 APR
+ 3/2 APR from Grand Mastery = 4 APR
+ 1 APR from weapon "of Action"/"Fast" = 5 APR = maximum

Since you cannot go over 5 APR, you don't need the extra 1/2 APR from being lvl 13+ *if* you're using a +1 APR weapon (or ring, in the case of thief). Since there are in fact quite a few of those items available (up to 2 flails 2 swords 1 scimitar 1 ring afaik), chances are high that you cannot make full use of the lvl 13 APR bonus. That reduces the advantage of a 13 Kensai over a 9 Kensai to a measly +1 dmg/thac0 and a 4th use of Kai, which really is not a whole lot considering you need FIVE TIMES the XP to get to 13 that you need to get to 9 (250k vs. 1.25m), and then a truckload of XP again to regain those levels.

I think that getting to lvl 9 over lvl 7 as a Kensai is actually worth it, because while the bonuses aren't huge, it takes fairly little XP. As a Berserker, even that may not be worth it and you can probably safely dual at 7 (though the difference is pretty small for sure).

MrGoodkat

@DreadKhan: Well, it's always a bit of a dilemma for me - pure power-gaming vs role-playing. What I tend to do most of the times is going with a strong character but not necessarily *the* strongest.

Berserker vs Kensai for example: I don't really like equipment restrictions and I don't enjoy running around without armor all game long. The human character model looks ugly enough as it is imho ;D It's also going to be an evil character and Berserker just fits better overall to what I have in mind.

So yes, Kensai might be a bit stronger in the end but the margin is not big enough to warrant giving up my role-playing preferrences.

Experience should not be much of an issue since I'm never playing with a full party of 6 and I always play on 'Insane' difficulty. With 3-4 party members and double XP from difficulty I should be able to reach the cap in a single run.

Assassin, Assassin, Assassin.... I do love that class. But to dual-class *from* Assassin just feels so wrong, cutting off all those nice sneak attack and crippling strike progressions... =(

Hypothetically though... level 9 would be the sweet spot, right? 3x poison, 4d6 SA damage, level 3 crippling strike and a good amount of thief skill points.

Btw. which character model do dual-class characters get? First or second class model? It's been a while since I played one...

@Lord_Tansheron: You've convinced me. ;D As I said earlier I wasn't aware of the APR cap or how high it is. The main reason I was going for Berserker 13 was the extra 1/2 APR so that obviously changes things quite a bit.

cbarchuk

Just go half-orc pure assassin and be done with it. I thought the 1 APR initially would suck when trying to land sneak attacks. It actually worked out just fine.

MrGoodkat

cbarchuk said:

Just go half-orc pure assassin and be done with it. I thought the 1 APR initially would suck when trying to land sneak attacks. It actually worked out just fine.

Nope, not gonna play half-orc for role-playing reasons. 1APR really sucks imho, especially considering the circumstances of IWD. Unlike BG where you tend to face smaller groups of more powerful enemies you're usually facing crowds of moderately strong opponents in IWD with only a small amount of actual priority targets.

So it's not like you can just snipe *the* main threat with a huge backstab and be done with. You actually have to keep fighting afterwards. With 3E sneak attacks APR are even more important. Of course that doesn't mean you cannot make it work, but you need a disproportionate amount of micromanagement and items/consumables to make a pure Assassin even remotely on par with a multi-class Fighter/Thief for example.

When he gets to the point of having 3 or more APR via items a pure Assassin is probably pretty sick, but until then.... I'm also gonna waste a lot of XP eventually since pure thieves quickly reach the level cap and I'm never running with a full party.

cbarchuk

You can only sneak attack each target once so APR isn't as big a factor unless you want to continue fighting in melee. I haven't had any issues landing a solid sneak attack even with 1 APR. Believe me I was surprised as well. Assassin's have the best sneak attack progression and they level extremely fast. Of course all this does require micromanagement which I love. If you don't then I wouldn't use sneak attack at all. I've been having my assassin land whatever sneak attacks I want against opponents to give them a solid hit plus the crippling strike debuff. I then back out of melee and use a bow. It works wonderfully. I do think half-orc is the best race for a pure assassin using sneak attacks.

Fardragon

MrGoodkat said:

@DreadKhan: Well, it's always a bit of a dilemma for me - pure power-gaming vs role-playing. What I tend to do most of the times is going with a strong character but not necessarily *the* strongest.

Berserker vs Kensai for example: I don't really like equipment restrictions and I don't enjoy running around without armor all game long. The human character model looks ugly enough as it is imho ;D It's also going to be an evil character and Berserker just fits better overall to what I have in mind.

So yes, Kensai might be a bit stronger in the end but the margin is not big enough to warrant giving up my role-playing preferrences.

Experience should not be much of an issue since I'm never playing with a full party of 6 and I always play on 'Insane' difficulty. With 3-4 party members and double XP from difficulty I should be able to reach the cap in a single run.

Assassin, Assassin, Assassin.... I do love that class. But to dual-class *from* Assassin just feels so wrong, cutting off all those nice sneak attack and crippling strike progressions... =(

Hypothetically though... level 9 would be the sweet spot, right? 3x poison, 4d6 SA damage, level 3 crippling strike and a good amount of thief skill points.

Btw. which character model do dual-class characters get? First or second class model? It's been a while since I played one...

@Lord_Tansheron: You've convinced me. ;D As I said earlier I wasn't aware of the APR cap or how high it is. The main reason I was going for Berserker 13 was the extra 1/2 APR so that obviously changes things quite a bit.

Duel class always uses the same model as muticlass, it doesn't matter what order the classes are taken in. In this case, you would get the fighter model.

Yes, level 9 would be a good place.

MrGoodkat

cbarchuk said:

You can only sneak attack each target once so APR isn't as big a factor unless you want to continue fighting in melee. I haven't had any issues landing a solid sneak attack even with 1 APR. Believe me I was surprised as well. Assassin's have the best sneak attack progression and they level extremely fast. Of course all this does require micromanagement which I love. If you don't then I wouldn't use sneak attack at all. I've been having my assassin land whatever sneak attacks I want against opponents to give them a solid hit plus the crippling strike debuff. I then back out of melee and use a bow. It works wonderfully. I do think half-orc is the best race for a pure assassin using sneak attacks.

Hm.. I guess what could work is to go into stealth before a fight, send your tank(s) in first and then move in from behind to sneak attack one target, switch to the next one, etc. Since the AI in IWD doesn't like to switch targets a lot it should be pretty reliable to get sneak attacks in.

So if each attack you make is actually a sneak attack possibly coupled with poison it's a decent amount of damage per round I guess. With 1 APR every miss is gonna hurt like a bitch though...

Update: Ok, I just rolled a 98 on an elven Assassin... guess I'll try it and play him as party leader for my evil party. I chose elf for personal reasons and because

when you get the thief ring a half-orc's +1 strength is actually outclassed by the elven racial +1 thac0 and damage if you're using long swords or short swords

cbarchuk

At least try it out. You may love it or you may hate it...lol. I personally was pleasantly surprised. It's not a steamrolling class but more of finesse class. I'm currently on the 5th level of dragon's eye and haven't had issues landing sneak attacks. I do usually stealth my assassin in from behind my front line. After the initial hit I just gradually switch targets till I'm done with sneak attacks. At that point I'll switch to a bow. Assassin's get such awesome sneak attack progression right out of the gate. I thought that was odd at first because I considered sneak attack to be more of dual wielding fighter/thief ability. But again it's worked out surprisingly well. As far as the thief ring goes you may be right. I just felt that the 19 STR from the beginning was needed to reliable hit targets out of stealth as a pure class thief. I could be wrong though. Enjoy!

moody_mage

@MrGoodkat said:

Update: Ok, I just rolled a 98 on an elven Assassin... guess I'll try it and play him as party leader for my evil party. I chose elf for personal reasons and because

when you get the thief ring a half-orc's +1 strength is actually outclassed by the elven racial +1 thac0 and damage if you're using long swords or short swords

Elves only get a THAC0 bonus, not a damage bonus.

Fardragon

Assuming the elf has 18 strength and the orc 19, that +1 strength equates to +2 to hit, and +5 damage. The elf wins with a shortbow though, with a +2 better thac0, and will have higher thief skills.

MrGoodkat

Fardragon said:

Assuming the elf has 18 strength and the orc 19, that +1 strength equates to +2 to hit, and +5 damage. The elf wins with a shortbow though, with a +2 better thac0, and will have higher thief skills.

Thieves a get ring that gives +1 strength and an extra attack per round so it's actually 19 vs 20 strength which is a measly +1 damage difference.

@decado: Yup, my bad, you're right on that one.

smeagolheart

Does sneak attack work on ranged weapons?

Can you have a bowed/darting sneak attacking assassin with poisoned projectiles?

MrGoodkat

Technically it *should* work on ranged attacks but I think the game often has trouble determining whether you are actually in a flanking/behind position so it's pretty reliable. That's the way it used to be in NWN, etc. if I remember correctly.

Poison does not work on ranged weapons afaik. Edit: Ok apparently it *does* work on ranged weapons.

Gotural

Poison Weapon does work on ranged weapons, and that's what make Blackguards or Assassin dual to Fighter or Mage (Melf Meteor + Poison Weapon works .... yes ) so strong. Their damage output is unparaleled if the target isn't immune to the poison.

smeagolheart

Gotural said:

Poison Weapon does work on ranged weapons, and that's what make Blackguards or Assassin dual to Fighter or Mage (Melf Meteor + Poison Weapon works .... yes ) so strong. Their damage output is unparaleled if the target isn't immune to the poison.

that's what I thought.. I'm going to try flanking somebody and see if it works with sneak attack ranged poison later if somebody doesn't beat me to it.

cbarchuk

Well I finally got to the severed hand and my half orc assassin is brutal. 1 APR and the darkened glory katana and he is decimating enemies with sneak attack. He's hitting as hard as a backstab in many instances. Pretty crazy. Did not think it would work as well as it has.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

@cbarchuk
Are you playing on normal or HoF difficulty?

cbarchuk

Core rules.

cbarchuk

I really thought the 1 APR and the thief's THACO would really suck. But it hasn't at all. Quite the opposite. Maybe as I get further in the game he will start to lag. Only time will tell.