When to dual-class?

Onslaught

Hello,

I've been trying to find when it's best to dual class my flail/morningstar Fighter into Cleric and why. I know there are some "good levels" (when you get more proficiency or additional attacks/round) and some levels that are "lost".

So... can someone enlighten me when should I dual class my fighter?

Btw I'm playing IWD:EE at insane difficulty.

Thanks!

Edit: Edited so it can be more clear

elminster

Do you mean the original game or the original game + Heart of Winter?

Anyways I'd say Level 9. The reason being that is the first level you can get grandmastery in a weapon. The game treats proficiency points for dual classing from a warrior differently than BG2, BGEE, BG2EE or IWDEE. Once you dual class you can't get any weapon proficiency higher than * (other than the ones you put towards before you dual classed). So if you dual class with **** in long swords you'll never be able to get ***** in it.

sorcerin

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elminster

sorcerin said:

elminster said:

So if you dual class with **** in long swords you'll never be able to get ***** in it.

I don't think this is true. I dualed a level three fighter to druid. Now at level 12, she has GM in scimitars. I have 4 pips in morning stars on my cleric that I dualed at level three with fewer pips in it. I think the issue is that the pips you put into a weapon before you dual, are lost until you get your old class abilities back. If you put new pips into a weapon before you get your old class abilities back, you lose the new pips.

Example:

You get to level 3 in fighter and have three pips in scimitar. You dual to druid. You now have 0 pips in scimitar. Once you get to level 4, you get those 3 pips back. If you put one pip into scimitar as a druid before you hit level 4, you lose it once you hit level 4, as you get your fighter pips back.

IWDEE works differently than the original game (the original IWD works the same as the original BG1 in this regard).

sorcerin

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Lord_Tansheron

The important fighter levels are lvl 7 and lvl 13, because at those levels you gain 1/2 APR each. That being said, they are not the only levels to dual at. There is also level 9 as @elminster mentioned, and GM is *very* powerful in IWD as it adds 3/2 APR (more than in BG1+2).

The trade-off, of course, is that the higher in level you go, the more XP you need. For that, it's important to realize that XP is not completely linear - you need very little XP for levels 1-9, but a lot more from lvl 10 on. Specifically, you need 250,000xp total to get to lvl 9, but then ANOTHER 250,000xp (for a total of 500,000xp) just to get to level 10 and for every level thereafter. That means that dualing at lvl 1-9 is more XP efficient, even considering you get more XP at later parts of the game.

Personally, I would be of the opinion that in IWD you should dual a fighter either at lvl 7 or at lvl 9. If proficiency really works the way @elminster‌ describes (I have too many mods to tell) then lvl 9 is a clear winner. If you can actually get to GM on a lvl 7 dual, then it's much closer, especially if you're dualing from a Berserker (Kensais get a passive damage bonus at lvl 9). Lvl 13 dual is probably not a good plan because it takes HUGE amounts of XP not just to get there but to regain the levels as well, and the 1/2 APR you gain can be wasted under certain circumstances (namely if using a +APR weapon).

So, TL;DR: dual at 7 or 9. If GM can only be gotten before dualing, go with 9. Otherwise it's a choice largely dependent on personal preference. Do not dual at 13.

Belanos

sorcerin said:

You get to level 3 in fighter and have three pips in scimitar. You dual to druid. You now have 0 pips in scimitar. Once you get to level 4, you get those 3 pips back. If you put one pip into scimitar as a druid before you hit level 4, you lose it once you hit level 4, as you get your fighter pips back.

You get the highest level of the two classes. So it's a good idea to use your Fighter pips for the weapon you really want to use, plus your Weapon Style, then put your Druid pips into a secondary and a ranged weapon when you dual over. With my Fighter/Druid, I had three points in Scimitar, two in Sword and Shield style, plus one in both Dagger and Sling when I finally hit 4th level Druid and got my Fighter levels back. I didn't lose a single point doing it that way. And then I had one more point that I could put into Scimitar to become High Master.

DreadKhan

Original IWD played by the pnp rules iirc, and you couldnt go past 1 pip after dualing out of Fighter. 9th was definately when you dualed for GM, or at 13th for the extra attack.

You can totally dual at 13. Beware the so called 'down time' will be long, but if you enjoy changing up your play style for a bit, dualing later can be quite fun. A 10th level Cleric is hardly useless to a party of 15th levels, but if you are gonna dual more than one character, watch that you don't get stuck with 3 or 4 characters that are below the curve.

Using +Apr weapons isn't mandatory unless you're using a shield. Make sure you use Rigteous Wrath of the Faithful though... if you have a party that shares alignments, its incredibly powerful, adding substantial bonuses and an extra apr for everyone. You will cap at 5 though, so if you've got 5 already due to using a +apr weapon, make sure you equipa better weapon while you're using the spell.

If you want to dual more than 1 or 2 characters at a similar level range, try grinding XP for a bit to clear the lower levels. Yetis and Cold Wights are popular.

Note, high levels duals are slow, but tend to be unbalancedly good when they work right, which tends to make the game less enjoyable when the game starts being too easy later.

wubble

Onslaught said:

Btw I'm playing IWD "vanilla" (why that means basic/original is still beyond me) at insane difficulty.

One would assume it is derived from vanilla icecream which is the basic flavour of ice cream

Onslaught

wubble said:

One would assume it is derived from vanilla icecream which is the basic flavour of ice cream

Indeed... but as of now I'm still not sure if it means old IWD or IWD:EE without mods, etc.

Anyway, due to the confusion I caused (sorry guys!) I edited the opening post so it's clear that I'm playing IWD:EE the way it's sold.

Lord_Tansheron said:

The important fighter levels are lvl 7 and lvl 13, because at those levels you gain 1/2 APR each. That being said, they are not the only levels to dual at. There is also level 9 as @elminster mentioned, and GM is *very* powerful in IWD as it adds 3/2 APR (more than in BG1+2).
(...)
So, TL;DR: dual at 7 or 9. If GM can only be gotten before dualing, go with 9. Otherwise it's a choice largely dependent on personal preference. Do not dual at 13.

Well... I guess it'll take time, but I'll do it at Lvl 9.

DreadKhan said:

Using +Apr weapons isn't mandatory unless you're using a shield. M

Sorry for the stupid question, but... What is a +APR weapon?

Anyway thanks for all the help, guys

elminster

In that case then level 7 or 9 are your best bets. 9 basically will give you a bit of extra health, 7 means you take less time to get your class back.

An +APR weapon (APR stands for "Attacks per round) is also known as a "speed weapon". Basically it gives you an extra attack per round (which because of the way the game works is actually given to the weapon you are using on your main hand). An example would be a Long Sword of Action.

sorcerin

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Belanos

DreadKhan said:

Original IWD played by the pnp rules iirc, and you couldnt go past 1 pip after dualing out of Fighter. 9th was definately when you dualed for GM, or at 13th for the extra attack.

You don't have to wait until 9th in order to Grandmaster. If you put 2 points into your preferred weapon at character creation, then two more at levels 3 & 6, you can still put a final point in with your new class later on. In the case of Druids and Clerics, that will be as soon as you get to level 8 as they get points every 4 levels. So the ideal time to dual would be at level 7, when you get that extra 1/2 APR.

Lord_Tansheron

Lvl 7 vs. lvl 9 is not that big a deal, really, especially in HoF. The XP you need is fairly low, certainly nothing like the MASSIVE jump in XP required after lvl 9. You gain a little extra XP with max fighter hit dice, an extra use of your kit ability (Berserker Rage/Kai) and for Kensais also an extra +1dmg/thac0 from the kit bonus. That isn't a WHOLE lot, but as I said the XP cost is fairly cheap and so I believe it's worth it for Kensais for sure, and for Berserkers possibly - though with them the difference is small enough that earlier access to your 2nd class abilities may want you to go with 7 anyway (I dualed my Berserker tank at 7 to Cleric, too, just to get buffs etc. more quickly).

Queegon

Don't forget about -2 THAC0 for 2 more fighter levels.

Lord_Tansheron

It's true, but THAC0 is actually not that big a deal in IWD because 1) you have a literal ton of buffs that improve it (Emotion: Hope/Courage, Prayer/Recitation etc., not to mention Skald Song) and 2) enemy THAC0 and AC scaling isn't nearly as out of control as it is in BG2:ToB and progresses at much more moderate levels.