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Npcs and alignment changes

XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
edited August 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
I just realized about a few things from bg2 that are quite interesting. There are npcs that change alignment based on choices you've made throughout the game. Sarevok becomes chaotic good if you redeem him, and Viconia can become true neutral if romanced (or so I hear, I always play a female) then there is anomen who either becomes lawful good or chaotic neutral depending on if he passes or fails his knighthood test.

I think we need more of this in the game. Especially the decision to get certain npcs to switch over to the dark side of things. I would love to turn, let's say, aerie, evil by focusing her anger into hatred... Or something like that...

Edited for clarity

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Comments

  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Lawful Good Aerie click - *with innocent voice* "What can I do?"
    Chaotic Evil Aerie click - *with bitter anger* "What, lowlife?!"

    I'd actually love that truly. Something I LOVED about Kotor 2... you could change your friends to whatever you liked and preferred!

    HvitrEbrithilXavioriaXzarmlnevese
  • HvitrEbrithilHvitrEbrithil Member Posts: 36
    That would truly be something, it would add some consequences to the other party-members based on your decisions. And make for a much more dynamic and customizable party.

  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,204
    Seems they're restricted to doing such things to the new NPCs... I feel very confident the new NPCs will be BG2 quality or better though. And since the game has a patchy launcher and DLC support they'll probably add even more NPCs over time with content patches and DLC. Yay for more content in a game that is allready full of it! \o/

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Well the first game doesn't really require much of it, because of how much you're trying to figure things out, and I know it can only go towards the new nods as the old ones cannot be changed at all. At the same time though, being able to get that change of heart, or growing up experiences from the other npcs, then it feels to me more like an open universe where things aren't just revolved around you (because we all know that for the most part, it is)

    Silverstar
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,355
    Xavioria said:

    I just realized about a few things from bg2 that are quite interesting. There are npcs that change alignment based on choices you've made throughout the game. Sarevok becomes chaotic good if you redeem him, and Viconia can become true neutral if romanced (or so I hear, I always play a female) then there is anomen who either becomes lawful good or chaotic neutral depending on if he passes or fails his knighthood test.

    I think we need more of this in the game. Especially the decision to get certain npcs to switch over to the dark side of things. I would love to turn, let's say, aerie, evil by focusing her anger into hatred... Or something like that...

    Great idea. It seems that Anomen was the only character to switch on the law/chaos axis. Didn't Minsc change from Neutral Good in BG1 to Chaotic Good in BG2?

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,145
    edited August 2012
    Chaotic Evil Misc click: " Boo say... KILL ! KILL !! KILL THEM ALL !!! "
    Lawful Good Edwin click: " How can i help you my cute little monkey ? "
    Neutral Good Tiax click: " Democracy will rules all !!! "

    XavioriaGemHoundMoomintroll
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,145
    edited August 2012
    kamuizin said:


    Viconia - Start Neutral Evil in BG.
    In Throne of Bhaal, (BG2 expansion), after the yaga-shura battle, IF IN ROMANCE (i almost certain of this):
    Viconia will be in shock after the battle, with the amount of corpses generated by the battle and the genocide of the innocents, she then ask to boyfriend main char if he want her to change, if you ask her to change she become Chaotic Good.

    You are wrong.
    She become True Neutral, no Chaotic Good.

  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    @kamuizin That was a fantastic read and I love the idea's. I know they only represent the character in BG2 but it was still great. Do you have any thoughts on any of the BG1 characters?

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    edited August 2012
    @Edvin, ok. Has some time i don't put viconia in a good party but can be my mistake i will edit the info.

    @IchigoRXC, the Characters in BG aren't too much developed in banters, behaviors or background to be possible this kind of deep changes as an alignment change. In BG we only work a NPC background or behavior on the moment they enter the party or when that NPC has a special quest involving him (edwin/minsc for example).

    I really hope BG EE change this, but otherwise BG will be just a bit better than IWD in terms of NPC development (after all there's no joinable NPC in IWD). If they can't add banter to BG characters i hope at least that Beamdog drag them to BG2 and develop them there.

    For BG my main desire would be an alternative way to get kits. I would like to put them in quests, so everyone would always pick a base kit on character creation (warrior, ranger, cleric, thief...) and inside the game, some quests, items or teachers could help a character to become for example a kensai (if warrior), archer (if archer), a priest of X (if priest)...

    IchigoRXC
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Bg was all mainly about the main quest line, and faltered on certain npcs needing you to fully stop what you were doing so that you can please a team mate. Sure in bg there may be a few detours, but as stated before, the character development isn't as situated as it is bg2. Another point is, that you yourself as the PC is still figuring things out. Bg2 is different where you're an independent and aware individual. Other npcs changing alignments in bg1 would be like the blind leading the blind IMO

    recklessheart
  • Raistlin82Raistlin82 Member Posts: 256
    Yes and no.

    YES... talking characters into changing their view on life is one of the things that I remember most fondly of this game. It made me feel like the characters were real and had feelings (and they could reason, and change their minds over previous discussions!).
    My fearsome brother, my loving dark angel... and that **** smarmy guy...

    NO... I've seen some truly abysmal suggestions... like LG to CE. Not EVERY character has to be susceptible to this. Changing from ANY alignment to ANY other (sometimes opposite) alignment is not possible, in a believable way (unless your name is Harvey Dent and you suffered crushing psychological trauma, facial disfigurement AND massive brain damage all at once... that's the only exception).

    XavioriaSyntia13
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    edited August 2012
    @Raistlin82, maybe the current alignment is a transition or a mask the person use i'm not trying to change water to wine here. Im my suggestions i really take that in account.

    Anomen for example was never a good person, he even assume that, so his changes are done in steps, the fail on the order exam make him lost the reason to control himself, therefore turning him chaotic and the hate and rage he already have inside him, can consume him with the proper impulses, turning him evil (in fact he's already evil, he says that in romance, he would only loose the evil he always hold inside him).

    Aerie is a mask, that's pretty clear, she was taken from the skies, enslaved, mutilated, her apparent weak behavior is a mask, how herself hide her feelings, in romance with her we have the option to throw that on her face, but doing that will end the romance, what i see as a waste of banters, the girl is a pool of hate contained behind a fake personality.

    Every change i suggested has a background and a justify to exist, they're my view of things and if you thought differ than me i will respect that, but believe when i say that the signs that i use as justify ARE THERE.

    Xavioria
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,496
    @Kamuizin Bleak! you remind me of Herzog talking about bears "I discover no kinship, no understanding, no mercy. I see only the overwhelming indifference of nature. To me, there is no such thing as a secret world of the bears. And this blank stare speaks only of a half-bored interest in food."

    As we use our own experiences to understand other people, everyone will have a different conception of Aerie's madness I'm sure. With Anomen, I think he just wants the world to organise itself for his benefit, an appropriately religious sentiment - Though what I thought was really strange was that you have to tell him what to do, he couldn't work it out for himself, I bet he looked over Ajantis' shoulder in the paladin exam. When things don't go as planned, well I didn't go down that route so I can't say.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    Well @Moomintroll i don't think i get what you wish to say with the Bear parody, but the core points of my interpretation are somehow a common sense, not an simple opinion.

    As for Anomen i agree with you, he don't need a push to become anything, but that would ruin the roleplay of the game if main char can't influence on the outcome. The banter prupose of the game would lost sense, we're arguing about a game, not a movie (where your argument of "chose by yourself" would be a principle to be follow).

    MoomintrollXavioria
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,496
    @Kamuizin so at the risk of *spoilers* does Anomen get up to anything odd if his alignment shifts to chaotic?

  • WorgWorg Member Posts: 170
    I found the Anomen alignment change stupid. Either you could choose the "bad" way where you get no advantages or you choose the "good" way which gives you advantages galore. The only reason I would ever use Anomen as an evil party is to ruin his life and then ditch him for Viconia. Corrupting him should bring lasting rewards, in my opinion anyway. Perhaps the good aligned have a monopoly of being wise. Perhaps you could continue corrupting him and turning him Chaotic evil and he either loses his cleric levels and turns into a fighter or keeps his cleric levels and turns into a fighter. I would prefer the former.

    Moomintroll
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    edited August 2012
    Well sup aging @moomintroll :)!!

    As chaotic neutral, Anomen romance is a little better, his banters in ToB surelly are more interesting and his end results (after beat the game) surelly are more satisfatory. But i assume that Anomen scripts are in bad shape, as Bioware and Black Isle never did a true separation between CN and LG Anomen, so his banters with non-joinable NPCs through the game will continue mostly the same (what i take as a mistake or lazyness of the devs).

    I like the alignment change of Anomen @Worg, it's pretty justified on the events around him, you're just seeing the world in black and white and this is a limited way to look at the world. But i take you don't like him from the words in your post, so i will give you and discount.

    In fact there's a huge discussion around CN anomen, as Chaotic Neutral aligned characters should not be able to worship Helm due to alignment conflict. Exist even a mod that turn CN Anomen into Barbarian Class, i never used but make sense in an roleplay point of view.

    Unfortunally Anomen is old content and i doubt Beamdog will change him, unseless they work the copyrights lend contract until the release of BG2. I believe addictions can't be restrained so add a evil patch for him should be ok, but change his content in Chaotic Neutral state maybe is forbidden, i don't know.

    Obs: CN Anomen worshipping helm is in fact a disrespect to WotC rules, so based in this there's an clause break on the old game in WotC assignment rights probally, but let's Beamdog resolve this.

    Moomintroll
  • Raistlin82Raistlin82 Member Posts: 256
    kamuizin said:

    Anomen [...] was never a good person

    Exactly. He was neutral. Or "Lawful Stupid", if you prefer.
    That's what makes BOTH of his alignment changes believable.
    in fact he's already evil, he says that in romance, he would only loose the evil he always hold inside him).
    No, he isn't evil.
    The fact that he is tormented with guilt and beats himself up about it is a HUGE hint you shouldn't have missed.
    Aerie is a mask, that's pretty clear, [...] the girl is a pool of hate contained behind a fake personality.
    "She is a mask" doesn't mean anything per se.
    That under the mask she hides a desire to hurt people is a lie, and you know it.
    That she's been traumatized is obvious.
    That she's (and I quote) "a pool of hate" is something that exists only inside your mind.
    That she might turn Chaotic is unlikely.
    That she might turn Evil is impossible.
    That she might turn an Axe Crazy, Chaotic Evil, ruthless b**** is just flat out ridiculous.

    Not every "broken bird" is going to turn into a psychopath.
    PLEASE don't ask for BG characters to become clichés.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    edited August 2012
    You however forget a few things. In order to mold someone to your liking, they have to be impressionable. Aerie fits this bill well. Add trauma and longing and you've got the recipe for alignment change. For example, Anomen lost his sister to a murderer, and through his talks, you know he's close to her. Trauma and longing mixed with an impressionable character :)

    Aerie has the power, the reason, and the guillability to be molded. Anomen's turning point was his sister's death. Aerie's is there too. Nalia is another good example of this because of her naive nature. Not EVERY npc should have the option to undergo this change, but it really does add a level of depth as well as allow people to truly personalize their gaming experience.

    Silverstar
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    edited August 2012
    Sorry dude but you lack the perception to interpret even the most basic behavior.

    Anomen is evil if you want to deny it it's your problem. Keldorn speak of Anomen dark side, Korgan call him hypocrite because of his struggle to fight his own nature, he assume he has a dark side (for more details, refer to the romance). His lawful neutral actual alignment represent his struggle to become good, not his nature. You can se that in the Renfield quest (the victim of robbery that start the harper quest) for example, where he show his disdain for ppl, as he only care about his status.

    There's no guilt in Anomen, as he put all the blame of his condition in his father, only after his sister death he will reflect on this matter. You have an already made up idea of him, and don't like my view, that's your problem, don't make it mine too, i don't need it.

    About Aerie:

    "she's a mask" ->mean a lot of things for an inteligent person.
    "That under the mask she hides a desire to hurt people is a lie"-> I never said that, it's your prejudice speaking here.
    "That she's been traumatized is obvious".-> So why you care in disagree in this? Just for the sake of flame?
    "That she's (and I quote) "a pool of hate is something that exists only inside your mind".-> Or maybe you lack the capacity to percept it, did you try the bad options on the romance to see her reaction? No, i'm sure you don't.
    "That she might turn Chaotic is unlikely"-> This one i say: only in your mind.
    "That she might turn Evil is impossible."-> Of course, cos a enslaved, mutilated, tortured person always become a beacon of light.
    "That she might turn an Axe Crazy, Chaotic Evil, ruthless b**** is just flat out ridiculous."-> I agree here, but CE isn't only this, so maybe you shoud expand your mind.

    "Not every "broken bird" is going to turn into a psychopath".-> Of course, but they can, it's an option, a possibility.

    To finsh, to a person that like to flame others like you, the bullshit level of your comments should at least drop a little. Have to even create some imaginary comments of mine to justify the flame, a pitty, too sad.

  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,204
    Heh. This thread is starting to become popcorn-munching hilarious... no offense meant Xavioria, not your fault.

    Xavioria
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    @kamiuzin made a rather interesting point in his first post I thought, regarding alignment changes.

    Personally I feel that some of these suggestions are too radical; a character's entire perspective is unlikely to change. Aerie doesn't really require an alignment change, I feel: For whatever reason, people already love her the way she is. Other characters perhaps require more development.

    Valygar is a good example, though I think he would require a behavioural change, not necessarily an alignment change. He did feel a little neglected compared to other NPCs. It is interesting that you say Nalia doesn't require one; she was one of my favourite characters in BG, and ToB dialogue with her hints heavily at a side-quest to shift her alignment to neutral or evil. I felt it was a pity that this wasn't implemented; she came off rather unpopularly compared to Imoen and Aerie as good-aligned mages, but I felt she had a lot of potential.

    All in all though, I don't think the BG2 NPCs require change, just addition. They were all very memorable and interesting in different ways. Though the idea of an alignment change or the chance to educate new NPCs to think differently in BG2:EE doesn't seem like a bad idea! (As long as it's done right, as with everything)

    Moira
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @recklessheart basically what I meant was behavioral change. The alignment change is just the in game marker that reflects that shift. And I'm not sure if you were talking to me or not about nalia but I mentioned her as a good candidate for that. Alignment and behavior as well as mental thought processes all go hand in hand. I was merely remarking on the fact that the game already had such npcs, and I thought that this subject could be brought back and expanded upon.

    Another thing that is said in the game is that you as the pc is a harbinger of change. Why not have the influence to make or break another npc if that potential is there?

    I'm not sure that in bg1 that should be an option because of my reasons mentioned above. If, however, you could be given a choice there too, it seems like Garrick and neera ( off the top of my head) might be good candidates for this as well

    recklessheart
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    OH an thanks @Silverstar, for once it's not lmao

  • Raistlin82Raistlin82 Member Posts: 256
    Aaaaanyway.
    As a side note. I hope the new Monk and Wild Mage are Neutral and Good, respectively. Mostly out of team balance requirements.
    If they're not, I hope they have the option to switch.

  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    @Xavioria
    Agreed.

    @kamuizin
    I agree with a few, disagree with some others;

    Aerie - Lawful Good.
    Alignment Change Options - Chaotic Evil
    I really don't see Aerie as Chaotic Evil on any level. Traumatised and hurt, yes, but she always seemed to the me type to forgive rather than avenge. I think pressuring her or convincing her to turn to evil would earlier make her turn away from you because you remind her of her captors than turn her evil herself.

    Anomen - Lawful Neutral (already has Lawful Good and Chaotic Neutral options).
    Alignment Change Option - Chaotic Evil
    Agreed. He needed only a little push to fail his test and go Chaotic Neutral, with a slightly bigger push (possibly with help from Sarevok in ToB) he could become power hungry and willing to serve Destruction as a Talosite (Talosian?)

    Valygar - Neutral Good.
    Alignment Change Option - Lawful Neutral (and class change)
    I don't see the lawfulness in your description but he never struck me as Good at all. Changing him to Neutral would be good enough for me but I don't particularly care, he's always struck me as v. boring.

    Keldorn - Lawful Good.
    Alignment Change Option - Chaotic Good (and class change or keep him as a fallen paladin)
    I don't see how your explanation shifts his behavior from Lawful to Chaotic, pro-law to anti-law, while retaining his goodness. I'd earlier interpret them as shifting from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral, keeping his respect for law and order but losing the passion to make things right.
    However, Keldorn is old, grizzled and wise. I don't think anything could change his alignment by now. He's seen his share and it'll take more than his wife's issues to completely change the beliefs he's built up over the last fifty years.

    Haer'Dalis - Agreed, he should disagree with any kind of constructive, preservative behavior. He's a nihilist from what I gathered, they're not big on building things, it's what ruined his relationship with Aerie.

    Nalia - Agreed

    Mazzy - She already has a bunch of paladin powers. Hell, more than most paladins. I wouldn't mind seeing a sidequest to make her an (honourary) member of the Order of the Radiant Heart though, if only to show they're not racists, that'd be nice. *Something* needs to be done, I agree with that.

    Addendum:
    Imoen
    I'd love to try and bring Imoen down with an evil PC, try and get her to embrace her birthright. Possibly, if you're mean to her right off the bat when you get her in Spellhold, she'll switch to True Neutral (From Neutral Good) because her only hope of rescue and light in darkest times beats her down. From then on, maybe with Sarevok's help, you can convince her to embrace her father's power and gain Bhaalspawn powers.
    That'd cement her status as Bhaalspawn (always felt a little tacked on) and make her even more plot important.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    Gimme the option, I'll turn aerie more evil than Korgan... THEN I'll help her MURDER him! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    SilverstarGemHound
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,683
    Hey @drugar! Thx for add to my ideas, and it's normall ppl to not agree with everything.

    I always had that feeling with aerie, but that's maybe just my point of view.
    Glad to see that more ppl saw Anomen's dark side, that's was something i thought too obvious to generate disagrees.
    I like Valygar, but as you told he lacks some spice, the suggestion was a way to maybe try to fix his dead behavior, he remember me too much Xan from BG for example.
    Keldorn as you told, has a solid character because of his age, however i yet feel possibilities on him.

    Imoen change is possible (irenicus take care of this for us XD), but should be a long term quest.
    If BG EE use a BGT alike system to join BG/BG2, maybe some quests in BG (to turn Imoem evil) could generate unremovable items in Imoem inventory, that when identified by the game during the transition, could load a different .cha version of imoem passible of turning evil. Or we just do as you told, start the changes in Spellhold and finsh them with Sarevok's advices in ToB.

    Maybe if someday i learn to mod well i try to make my changes if none of them gets in BG2 EE.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    None of the current alignment changes in the game occurred immediately. Each of the changes were very gradual and culminated into its own climax. The thing is that the npcs come to this change on their own, just by following little tidbits of wisdom and advice now and again. Who's to say that Aerie wouldn't turn evil given the right circumstances? The same could be said about ANY of the npcs to be perfectly honest, but this has basically become a conversation about which ones it seems would go through such a powerful change. The developers have in mind some more npcs for bg2 when it comes out besides the three that were formerly mentioned.

    I would personally enjoy a chaotic evil Aerie, but will it happen? Who knows? I just hope that there is more of this from AT LEAST one or two of the new npcs.

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