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Web vs. Stinking Cloud



  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 716
    edited November 2014
    I agree with Web being superior to Stinking Cloud. Don't forget that Web forces a save every round. So, Glitterdust isn't that powerful in the end. Still, it's not like there are so many other incredible spells to pick at this level so you can pick pretty much anything. Now, level 4 is much more challenging in that regard.
    Also, remember that you can only cast a spell per round (unless you use contingencies). So, many spells will become obsolete because you'll mainly use the most powerful. Those that come with save penalties for example.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    Hurray bard love!

    Bards do lack the sheer firepower of a sorcerer, of course, but let's face it, most of the time in a party the sorcerer is just sitting back with a sling waiting for the right moment. Bards can contribute so much more between spells.

    Now, for the 3E games, I think it'd be a little rough in NWN1 due to limited party size and lack of good defensive options (armor gives you spell failure and Mirror Image isn't in the game). You could do it, of course, but it'd be hard. In NWN2, meanwhile, I maintain that the bard is the single strongest class in the game. Even solo, the bard is crazy strong due to passive bard songs and amazing buff spells (including Mirror Image), and in NWN2 you get a real party.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    edited November 2014
    @Jarrakul, I've actually also found my NWN1 bards to be quite powerful, especially in mods. I've beaten Savant's Aielund Saga as a bard, and Shadows of Undrentide, and it still felt better and more powerful than any class I've ever tried in the NWN series.

    I think the reason for that is the overwhelming flexibility and preparedness for almost *anything* that a bard has, combined with the "I can't believe you're allowing me this power" of the Lingering Song feat, combined with pretty darned good skill with any bard weapons and even martial weapons if you take the feat.

    So, I could handle all locks and traps myself, (through cross-training, maybe with the Able Learner feat), or I could take Tomi with me to do that, and build my bard skills even higher, or I could take a melee powerhouse for a "henchman" like Red Tiger, Aribeth, (or Robert Black in Aielund), and once Hordes of the Underdark gives me two "henchmen", even another "friend" who gets super-powerful with my song.

    In NWN2, my bard characters get not only the "make your friends in your party into superheroes" song, but also the "curse song", (which is also one of the best "spells" in NWN1 as well), and then, in NWN2, you get at least three other party members who can cover almost any role, and can be made superpowerful through your song.

    I think the bottom line is that bards under 2nd and 3rd edition rules, and computer games based on 2nd and 3rd edition D&D, are the secret, little-known masters of the game. It resulted from original conceptions of the bard class as kind of being "all over the place", and uncertainty over what it should be or do, and then winding up making it good at *everything*.

    The one weakness of the bard is that he or she is at best while surrounded by friends who are turned into "The Justice League" or "The Avengers" by his or her powers, while he or she is weak while alone, although far from powerless even then.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,028
    Poor bards. Forever doomed to be outshined by their friends who are only stronger than the bard because of the bard.

    Glad to hear about NWN1, honestly. I've been considering going back and playing through the expansions as a bard, but I was always worried it'd be too weak. Sounds like that fear was unfounded.

  • jimmysdabestcopjimmysdabestcop Member Posts: 74
    But in NWN bards can prestige to red dragon disciple with all expansions. And can multi/dual class. Makes them so much better.

    In fact if I remember right you only need like 8 levels of bard to get to red dragon prestige class. So you can go fighter. Then bard then red dragon. Or some combo like that it's been awhile.

    One play through I remember having a hafling with something outrageous like 25 str as a red dragon dual wielding long swords. With equally outrageous ac and hp.

  • kensaikensai Member Posts: 228
    edited November 2014

    In fact if I remember right you only need like 8 levels of bard to get to red dragon prestige class. So you can go fighter. Then bard then red dragon. Or some combo like that it's been awhile.

    Actually you need only 1 lvl of bard.
    But I guess that build can't be counted as a bard x)
    Oh I miss that nwn rdd with a WINGS and TAIL, that ee versions don't have...

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited November 2014
    In theory, you should need 2 levels of bard, since Dragon Disciple is supposed to require the ability to cast 1st level spells. I don't think this was implemented in NWN though.

    NWN2 didn't have wings and tails either. There where mods to add them though.

    The thing about bards in IWDEE, and skalds in the other games, is they are very passive, at least until they get decent spells. Which is fine in a team based game, but who wants a passive main protagonist?!

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