Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Web vs. Stinking Cloud

BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
Hi, I have a sorcerer character who's about to need to decide between one of these two spells for a second level crowd control spell.

It looks like Web and Stinking Cloud are effectively the same thing (save every round or be incapacitated), but Stinking Cloud covers a bigger area, while Web covers a smaller area but can be cast farther away.

Which of these two spells is better if you have to choose one? Is it worth it for a sorcerer to eventually pick both of them?

My sorcerer already has Melf's Acid Arrow and Invisibility. He will take a crowd control spell for a second level spell at the next opportunity. For the last two second level spells, when they finally come, I am thinking maybe Mirror Image and either Glitterdust or whichever CC he didn't take first (Web or Stinking Cloud).

«1

Comments

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,686
    Would Web be more effective in IWD because undead are immune to poison? Does poison immunity affect save vs. poison throws?

    There are so many good level 2 and 3 spells. Hard to choose! :)

    wubbleBelgarathMTHjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    there aren't that many spiders in the game anyway and there are a sh*t ton of undead.

    BelgarathMTHthe_spyderJuliusBorisov
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,596
    I don't know anything about IWD but if the spells are the same as they are in BG then...

    Web is probably better since it applies a -2 penalty to anyone saving against it where as stinking cloud applies a +2 bonus to anyone saving against it.

    typo_tillyjackjackBelgarathMTHCrevsDaak
  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    edited November 2014
    @Tresset: According to the spell description 'Web' does *not* apply the saving throw penalty anymore.

    It's still a great spell though, especially when stacked multiple times with a sequencer. Combine it with 'Free Action' items for even greater face-melting.

    elminsterJuliusBorisov
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,396
    edited November 2014
    Tresset said:

    I don't know anything about IWD but if the spells are the same as they are in BG then...

    Web is probably better since it applies a -2 penalty to anyone saving against it where as stinking cloud applies a +2 bonus to anyone saving against it.

    Web doesn't have -2 penalty to save in iwd. Still I think it is more useful, because there are hordes of undead in this game and you can web them all, and then finish them off with ranged weapons or a crispy fireball. Your fighters can get immunity to it via items or spells and hack/bash the webbed undead to pieces.

    Stinking cloud will be more effective against mage enemies (since they have terrible save vs poison) however mage enemies are not that dangerous in iwd. And you can't gain immunity to it unless you play a dwarven cleric with a save vs poison/death of 0. Also it does nothing to undead. Pass.

    Glitterdust is effective too, it works on pretty much anything. Duration is short with 4 rounds but a sorc is well suited to throw glitter every four rounds, sorc's strength (aside from not needing scrolls) is casting same spell over and over and glitterdust can make all enemies in the battlefield completely blind if you cast it every four rounds.

    Melfs acid arrow is a weak choice, IMHO, for killing trolls you can use sunscorch, a brilliant lvl1 deuid spell, or burning hands. If you like doing continous damage or melting enemies with acid, Vitriolic sphere does far more damage than this.

    elminsterShikaoJuliusBorisov
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited November 2014
    Tresset said:

    I don't know anything about IWD but if the spells are the same as they are in BG then...

    Web is probably better since it applies a -2 penalty to anyone saving against it where as stinking cloud applies a +2 bonus to anyone saving against it.

    Web is hella nerfed in IWD. Stinking cloud looks a lot better now. I would still pick web, but and have a secondary caster with stinking cloud on hand.

    JuliusBorisov
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,026
    edited November 2014
    I'm always reluctant to use Stinking Cloud because there's nothing I have for my tank to resist it (plus it doesn't work on undead, they don't breathe and all), while Web has been very useful since I got Lysan's cloak for Free Action. The problem I've found with Web is that it seems like Umber Hulks (holy crap eff these guys) and random large enemies are immune to it. Once I got the almighty Slow I stopped using it as much.

    meagloth
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    I always pick web.
    There are plenty of ring of free action and the game is full of undead.
    A sorcerer and a bard casting a couple of web helped me a lot in hof.

    lunar
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    kensai said:

    The answer is Web of course. One of the most useful spells in game and great tactics with rings of free action.
    Cloud is weaker in comparison.
    About last two i'll recommend blind (afaik it's lvl 2 spell?)
    Cast it on enemies and they get thaco penalty, cast it on your party members - and they gets invulnerable to umber hulk's gaze of confusion. That may be not a problem on corr, but on hof confusion is pain in ass.

    Blindness being a lvl2 spell in IWD is redundant though, with glitterdust. I hadn't though of the basilisk/umber hulk immunity. And of course, while they may be "immune" they still can't attack.

    jackjackJuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • kensaikensai Member Posts: 228
    edited November 2014
    meagloth said:

    And of course, while they may be "immune" they still can't attack.

    Of course they can attack, why do you think they couldn't?

    Never used glitterdust so I can't say about this but blind isn't so redundant because of this immunity.
    @wubble‌ haven't beat basilisk yet, I'll say later for sure.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,884
    I've been through this question myself, @BelgarathMTH‌ and this is what I've decided.

    Web doesn't have a -2 to enemy's saving throws bonus in IWDEE. Also, it doesn't work on large creatures. And I think that more often than not in IWDEE large creatures pose a lot more threat than small ones. There're lots of large creatures in IWDEE, starting from giants.

    Stinking Cloud works agains your own party if your characters go into it's area of effect. Also, it doesn't work agains the Undead. There're indeed lots and lots of undead in the game.

    A sorcerer is limited in his spells so each spell this character chooses, must be effective and useful.

    So, I advice on taking neigther Web nor Stinking Cloud for your sorcerer.

    The spell I find much more effective is Glitterdust. I think it's one of the best in the game. -4 penalty to enemies' attack rolls and Armor Class which can be added to your clerical buffs/debuffs, bard songs and other enhancements is very useful.

    In a battle, my sorcerer starts with Slow and then casts Glitterdust. This is the best option, in my opinion.

    ShikaoBelgarathMTHjackjackCrevsDaak
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,658
    Glitterdust also deals with Invisibility which can be annoying.

    ShikaojackjackCrevsDaak
  • jimmysdabestcopjimmysdabestcop Member Posts: 74
    Glitterdust is good. I do like web. And 1st level grease.

    Shikao
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    If you start a first level party HoF run, you'll need to pick something like web (or stinking cloud, since you aren't facing undead yet).
    Glitterdust is nice, but web (or stinking cloud) last longer, and you need to cast them before you see enemies, so the 4 rounds of glitterdust aren't enough at all.
    A mix of a couple of Grease and a couple of Web let you face few enemies at the same time for a almost a full fight.

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    Thanks for all the insightful answers. I agonize so much over what spells to pick for my sorcerer, I think I might just restart with a bard or a mage so I won't be locked into anything. :D

    Then again, my sorcerer was kicking butt last night on the first and second levels of Dragon's Eye, fireballing lizard men and bombadier beetles to kingdom come. He still hadn't gotten to pick any second level crowd control spells, but he didn't seem to need them when he could just blast everything in sight. I sure would miss all those spell slots if I went bard. And Icewind Dale makes specialist mages so restricted in their schools. Hmm, what to do, what to do.

    Maybe I'll finally finish a run some time next year. LOL

    lunar
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,248
    Yeah, don't sleep on Grease!

    elminster
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    kensai said:

    meagloth said:

    And of course, while they may be "immune" they still can't attack.

    Of course they can attack, why do you think they couldn't?

    Never used glitterdust so I can't say about this but blind isn't so redundant because of this immunity.
    @wubble‌ haven't beat basilisk yet, I'll say later for sure.
    Actually, I don't think this works. I just tried it with basilisks. It didn't work at all. Everyone got petrified. I cast blindness on imoen and sent her close to a basilisk, close enough that if she wasn't blind she would have been able to see it, (though being blind she couldn't) and the basilisk just petrified her like normal. @kensai‌ could you explain how I'm supposed to do this?

    jackjack
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    Oh, also, this is why you can't attack:image

    jackjackIrbis
  • kensaikensai Member Posts: 228
    edited November 2014
    meagloth said:


    Actually, I don't think this works. I just tried it with basilisks. It didn't work at all. Everyone got petrified. I cast blindness on imoen and sent her close to a basilisk, close enough that if she wasn't blind she would have been able to see it, (though being blind she couldn't) and the basilisk just petrified her like normal. @kensai‌ could you explain how I'm supposed to do this?

    To do what exactly?

    To kill umber hulks in iwd ee? Blindness is working there, as I stated. You can even notice that in description
    "Blind creatures are immune to gaze attacks" (iwd:ee manual)
    I guess that's the reason why this spell moved from lvl1 (bg) to lvl2 (iwd).

    To kill basilisks in bg:ee? I'm not sure if this works, as it is different games from different companies, and spells in this games works differently. BUT you can easily protect your party in BG with simple 1lvl spell "Protection from Petrification" or "Potion of Mirrored Eyes". Or just kill via undead summon.

    To kill basilisks in iwd:ee with blindness? As I said before I haven't meet them to the moment, so I can't say for sure if Blindness works. But you can still kill them via methods mentioned before. Hello Oswald, I want that potion. Are you sure there are basilisks in IWD:EE??

    And yes, I know you have limited vision then you are blinded, but I don't see a problem here.
    First Umbers are melee enemy so they get close to you, there you can hit them.
    Second if at least one person in your party aren't blinded but protected from confusion you can point rest of your party to your enemy.
    How to protect against umbers? Rage, Enrage, Potion of Clarity (hello again oswald), Mind Blank (8lvl wizard), Exaltation (lvl 3 priest), Chaotic Commands (lvl 5 priest), Imperviuos Sanctity of Mind (lvl 9 priest) and others.
    Third you can just blind your summons and send them attacking umbers, while you take a cup of warm tea.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,952
    edited November 2014
    Edit: Nevermind. Guess I was wrong.

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,305
    elminster said:

    kensai said:


    I guess that's the reason why this spell moved from lvl1 (bg) to lvl2 (iwd).

    Actually in the original BG1 I believe Blindness was also a level 2 spell. BG2 changed this (which subsequently changed things for BGEE and BG2EE).
    I still have the original BG1 TotSC on my computer; I checked and actually Blindness is a level 1 spell.

    elminsterjackjack
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,952

    elminster said:

    kensai said:


    I guess that's the reason why this spell moved from lvl1 (bg) to lvl2 (iwd).

    Actually in the original BG1 I believe Blindness was also a level 2 spell. BG2 changed this (which subsequently changed things for BGEE and BG2EE).
    I still have the original BG1 TotSC on my computer; I checked and actually Blindness is a level 1 spell.
    Yea I know that is why I edited my post (before you posted :p)

    It is actually level 2 in PnP, which must be where I had gotten that impression.

    jackjackCrevsDaak
  • jimmysdabestcopjimmysdabestcop Member Posts: 74
    My Sorcerer in HOF Level 2 spells

    Web
    Horror
    Glitterdust
    Mirror Image
    Blur

    I did HOF from Level 1 party. So I used Web, Horror and Glitterdust a lot early. But since all my melee and range guys have Free Action something or other I still use Web and Glitterdust even end game. Horror kind of goes out the window but was extremely helpful early. Blur I really dont use as much. Stoneskin and Mirror Image mostly.

    I do have F/D with Entangle and a Archer with Entangle as well. Again extremely useful early.

    Stinking Cloud you need Poison Resistance. Think even end game I have 2 characters with that only. So better stick with Web even though it nerfed compared to BG2.


Sign In or Register to comment.