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New spells too OP?

DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
Do you think battles are a lot easier with the imported spells from BG series(Time Stop, Wish, PfMW etc...)? Should IWD:EE be balanced out with a "balance patch"? What do you think?

New spells too OP? 56 votes

Yes, the new spells are far too OP. Remove them!
1%
Musigny 1 vote
Yes, the new spells are far too OP in the current environment of the game. Keep them but make the battles harder.
25%
GalactygonlunarkensairecklessheartchickenhedWowobob_vengFinneousPJGoturalYozZzZzCrevsDaakVfleetjackjackunhidemymenus 14 votes
If you find them to be OP, don't use them. I only use Time Stop as a "pause" button anyways.
25%
sarevok57elminsterJolanOneAngryMushroomsunblazeJLeeJarrakulIrbisKoyoteChackTidusShikaoEmpyrialFRUTZK 14 votes
Not even close to OP. Don't change anything.
23%
smeagolheartmlneveseSceptenarLMTR14cmk24foolstoneNonnahswriterSageFardragonmeaglothGamingFreakZyzzogetonameliaboggins 13 votes
The new spells are underpowered. Buff them.
1%
Pibaro 1 vote
Other
23%
Son_of_ImoenJonelethIrenicusShadowHunterNoonJuliusBorisovDarkcloudthe_spyderMrGoodkatLord_TansheronHeindrichTad_Has_A_Cold_OliveNimranby_the_sword 13 votes
JuliusBorisov
«1

Comments

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,303
    Yes, the new spells are far too OP in the current environment of the game. Keep them but make the battles harder.
    reworked encounters with enemy casters pls. more bg2 spell strategies. perhaps more magic resistance and better saves for enemies.

    CrevsDaakby_the_sword
  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    Other
    Not sure if Time Stop, etc. are "OP", especially considering this is a single player game. They sure give the game a unique flavor though. In BG2 for example you always feel like you are somehow "weak" because your enemies are so insane. Various Dragons, Demogorgon, 20+ spellcasters with tons of triggers and contingencies, etc. Doesn't mean the battles are necessarily hard, but when you play it the first time you always find yourself thinking "WTF is this guy doing? I wanna do that too!"

    In IWD *you* are the powerful one for a change, at least in the sense that you do things that not a lot of enemies can or will do. Maybe it's just me but even though physical damage is often superior from a powergaming perspective I always associate high level spell-casting with power and control.

    ShikaoArdul
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Other
    The spells aren't the issue, the game is just too easy and combat too simplistic in general. With an SCS-style mod (TTT?) things should work much better, new spells or not.

    Time Stop is super overrated anyway, why would I want to cut down on damage output from the rest of the party?

    JuliusBorisov
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Yes, the new spells are far too OP in the current environment of the game. Keep them but make the battles harder.
    Yes

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,461
    Other
    I think that for those players who can't play BG without the SCS mod or any other difficulty-enhancing mods IWD would seem to be quite easy anyway. BG spells, kits and abilities don't make a huge difference here, rather the AI does.

    It would be indeed great to have a mod and/or official enhancing the AI in IWDEE, so I second @CrevsDaak‌ 's and @Lord_Tansheron‌ 's votes.

    Without such enhancing, I wouldn't play IWDEE if I want to get hard circumstances and difficult encounters. I play IWDEE when I want to feel the atmosphere, to listen to its music, to enjoy druidic and bardic abilities. If I want difficult fights and thinking AI, I play BG with the SCS mod.

    PeckerBelgarathMTHjackjack
  • TidusTidus Member Posts: 86
    If you find them to be OP, don't use them. I only use Time Stop as a "pause" button anyways.

    The spells aren't the issue, the game is just too easy and combat too simplistic in general. With an SCS-style mod (TTT?) things should work much better, new spells or not.

    Time Stop is super overrated anyway, why would I want to cut down on damage output from the rest of the party?

    in BG, I use Time Stop to unleash dispel/breach so that the rest of the party will be able to do their usual damage output when the clock starts ticking again. There would be niches uses like using it for better placing of cones and the like but not OP anyway

  • PeckerPecker Member Posts: 28

    Time Stop is super overrated anyway, why would I want to cut down on damage output from the rest of the party?

    Well, looking at total damage output for the party when everything is frozen in time is pretty meaningless when considering the effectiveness of the spell. The only real downside of time stop is that it doesn't pause buff timers (I think?). So short duration buffs like defensive harmony will time out faster and be much less effective.

    elminsterjackjackJuliusBorisov
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,611
    edited December 2014
    I'm pretty sure you won't get any ninth level spells by the end of the game, with both expansions, if you have a full party.

    I'm playing a four-member party with a sorcerer for the arcane caster. He just got his first 8th level spell, near the end of Trials of the Luremaster. Before moving to Heart of Winter, I had the main campaign finished up through Lower Dorn's Deep, ready to open the last seal to start the end game there.

    My sorcerer may get a ninth level spell before the final battle, but just barely, and the game is already almost over anyway.

    So, I think discussing whether 9th level spells are OP only applies to solo players, or I guess HoF players.

    It does apply to me whether the other new spells from levels one-seven are OP. Mostly I would say no. I get an advantage as a sorcerer because I can choose the spells I want and not be dependent on scrolls, which does make the game easier, since I think the original devs tried to control your arcane spellbook repertoire by their scroll placement, and that control is gone with the addition of the sorcerer class.

    I think the addition of kits for all classes is more overpowering to IWD than the spell lists. IWD:EE is definitely at least somewhat (maybe a lot) easier than the original because of the addition of kits, but I still like it better than the original.

    I don't think the base game needs to be changed, but for people who are used to and prefer to play BG with SCS, what they really need to be happy is an SCS for Icewind Dale.

    PeckerJuliusBorisovLindeblom
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Other
    Pecker said:

    Well, looking at total damage output for the party when everything is frozen in time is pretty meaningless when considering the effectiveness of the spell. The only real downside of time stop is that it doesn't pause buff timers (I think?). So short duration buffs like defensive harmony will time out faster and be much less effective.

    Why is it meaningless? I'm dealing damage in a certain amount of time. If I take the rest of my party out of the equation, I'm still spending time fighting - only it's with a single character, and the enemies aren't fighting back. In terms of damage output, it's almost always a loss.

    The only thing TS has going for it is defense. Enemies don't fight back, so you can take out dangerous targets before they can do anything. That, of course, hardly ever applies in IWD because there are no dangerous targets that you couldn't handle otherwise (like sticking an Archer onto a mage to interrupt-lock them). In terms of offensive power though, TS is very often just horribly inefficient (though not necessarily ineffective).

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Other
    I am very curious about this word "Balance" that is used? I've never seen it used in relationship to D&D or to any of the BG style games before. Is it a new word? What does it mean? How is it applied to a game such as D&D?

    jackjackNonnahswriterSkatan
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Yes, the new spells are far too OP in the current environment of the game. Keep them but make the battles harder.
    Having not played the original I'm not even sure what spells are new but PI and IH make a massive impact on gameplay, especially when used together.

    BelgarathMTHJLeejackjack
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    If you find them to be OP, don't use them. I only use Time Stop as a "pause" button anyways.
    @Pecker‌ @Lord_Tansheron‌ I was curious about that word choice also. I always looked at TS as being highly efficient. However, I almost exclusively use Time Stop to buff/debuff and almost never for offensive firepower. That way when time resumes, fighters' hits will count and will not be wasted on Mantle/Stoneskin, etc.

    BlackravenPecker
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    edited December 2014
    Other
    Pecker said:

    @Lord_Tansheron‌ If you're going to look at damage output per unit of time, you have to use in game time as a reference point, not real time as perceived by you. Time stop freezes time for everyone but the mage,. Sure, technically no one else is doing damage while time is stopped, but it's a completely meaningless way to measure a character's damage output. If we use your logic then you shouldn't ever press the space bar, since when you pause the game everyone's damage output is reduced to 0.

    Wouldn't it make the most sense to count time as rounds elapsed, though? Think of TS as a stun on everyone except the caster, if that helps. Rounds are still passing, except only one character can do anything - leading to low efficiency.
    Granted, it becomes a matter of definition for time (and I would say personally that space bar use does in fact impact efficiency), but I think that rounds are the best compromise to settle on as essentially all in-game combat events are measured by it.
    Pecker said:

    Time stop essentially allows your mage to cast 3 spells simultaneously, when he would otherwise only be casting one. How could this possibly be bad (aside from the one drawback I mentioned before)? Yeah, it makes the fight seem longer for you, the player, but unless you're some high profile lawyer or something and your time is extremely valuable, it makes no difference whatsoever.

    I'm not sure I understand. Just look at the scenario: Party A does not use TS and just goes and kills the enemies in X seconds. Party B does use TS, the mage casts spells and whatnot, then all the enemies are dead after X+Y seconds. How is that comparison flawed? And isn't it irrelevant whether you value your own time more or less than someone else? I mean sure maybe you don't care if it takes you longer and that's cool, but how is that any less subjective of an argument than the other way round? I don't ascribe value to the time, I just measure it. Value is for you to figure out, if you don't care that it takes longer that's 100% okay with me - but just because you choose to or choose not to value time doesn't make it irrelevant to the argument.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    Other
    JLee said:

    @Pecker‌ @Lord_Tansheron‌ I was curious about that word choice also. I always looked at TS as being highly efficient. However, I almost exclusively use Time Stop to buff/debuff and almost never for offensive firepower. That way when time resumes, fighters' hits will count and will not be wasted on Mantle/Stoneskin, etc.

    I think the issue is between "efficient" and "effective". TS can be highly EFFECTIVE, in that it allows you to dispatch highly problematic targets without them fighting back, or having time to buff, etc. However, in terms of pure damage output in a vanilla scenario, losing damage from the rest of your party makes it not very EFFICIENT in terms of damage output.

    In BG2 the effective part tends to matter more, for the dispelling/debuffing you mentioned and also for defensive use. In IWD however enemies are far less protected and far less dangerous, and the main issue is simply damage output (thanks to how HoF works). That places most of the relevant part of the fight into the efficiency category, which is where TS is not exactly stellar.

    I think TS is a very good example of why you need to carefully evaluate your options. It's flashy and seems so obviously powerful, but once you start doing the math behind it you realize that very often you'd just have finished the fight twice over already had you not used TS. But not always ;)

    JLee
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    If you find them to be OP, don't use them. I only use Time Stop as a "pause" button anyways.
    @Lord_Tansheron‌ Ahhh...I think my principle misunderstanding is that I forgot this an IWD thread. But I appreciate your point, thank you for clarifying.

    jackjackKoyote
  • PeckerPecker Member Posts: 28
    @Lord_Tansheron‌ Yeah, as you said, it really just comes down to your definition of time and what metrics you use to assess the value of a spell.

    You seem to be obsessed with how fast you can win a battle in real time, as if you just set a stop watch beside you while you play and measure how much damage you can output while the watch is running. If that's how you like to play the game, doing high damage with minimal interruptions, and you find it interesting and fun to try to maximize this, that's cool. However, it's not a meaningful way to objectively look at how strong something is within the game. That is to say, how will this spell affect my chances of winning the fight?

    Think of what it would be like if the spell lasted for 30 rounds instead of just 3. By your standard it wouldn't be a very good spell since it takes a long time and no one else is doing damage. But if you think about how much the spell helps you win a battle, it would be ridiculously powerful being able to cast your whole spell book while no one else can do anything.

    What it all comes down to is this. Time stop allows your mage to cast 3 spells in 1 round, with the side effect of all active spell buffs/debuffs being reduced in duration by 3 rounds. This is objectively very powerful in regard to helping you win the fight.

    Does that answer your question? I hope so, we're starting to completely derail this thread, lol.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,198
    edited December 2014
    Other
    Pecker said:

    You seem to be obsessed with how fast you can win a battle in real time, as if you just set a stop watch beside you while you play and measure how much damage you can output while the watch is running. If that's how you like to play the game, doing high damage with minimal interruptions, and you find it interesting and fun to try to maximize this, that's cool.

    I'm not placing value on time, I'm just considering it as part of the equation. That is not fallacious, I think, but completely disregarding it by placing 0 value on it would be.
    Pecker said:

    However, it's not a meaningful way to objectively look at how strong something is within the game. That is to say, how will this spell affect my chances of winning the fight?

    Think of what it would be like if the spell lasted for 30 rounds instead of just 3. By your standard it wouldn't be a very good spell since it takes a long time and no one else is doing damage. But if you think about how much the spell helps you win a battle, it would be ridiculously powerful being able to cast your whole spell book while no one else can do anything.

    Even if it lasted 30 rounds, it would still not be any more efficient if it makes the rest of your party obsolete (and let's discount solo play for now, because that obviously changes relative values on many things, not just TS). I also object to the metric of "does it help you win the battle", because it's very easy to find extremely defensive setups that will never technically lose fights, even though it takes ages for them to kill anything. If you went by that logic, why are you even bothering with better gear? Do you need that new sword? Those higher level spells? I mean, would you really LOSE the battle if you didn't have it? I'm pretty sure you can beat the game with an absolute bare minimum of stuff - so by your logic, why are you bothering at all to pick up things that make you more powerful than that bare minimum (as I'm sure you are but correct me if not)?

    Your argument only has merit in scenarios where the DEFENSIVE properties of TS come into play (what I filed under "effective" above). If you are in danger of dying because there is some big blue meanie running around flinging rays of doom (happens a lot in BG2) then you can use TS to dispatch the critter safely. You'll do less damage than you would with your party, but that's okay because losing party members would probably be even less damage.

    However, that scenario basically just doesn't happen in IWD (and is rare even in SCS BG2). The fights are just long grueling meat grinders where you get assaulted by 20 piles of 200+ HP at a time. It's trivial to defend against them, and all you care about past a certain point (namely the beginning of the game) is how quickly you get through these monster HP walls. TS does very little for that, in fact it prolongs the process even further.
    Pecker said:

    What it all comes down to is this. Time stop allows your mage to cast 3 spells in 1 round, with the side effect of all active spell buffs/debuffs being reduced in duration by 3 rounds. This is objectively very powerful in regard to helping you win the fight.

    Does that answer your question? I hope so, we're starting to completely derail this thread, lol.

    You say it's objectively very powerful, but that is only true if you rig the argument to COMPLETELY disregard the time component. I don't know how you can call it objective if you do that, perhaps you could explain? What is objective about an argument where you disregard a component solely because you personally do not place value on it? Isn't that the exact opposite of objective?

  • FeytorFeytor Member Posts: 57


    I'm not sure I understand. Just look at the scenario: Party A does not use TS and just goes and kills the enemies in X seconds. Party B does use TS, the mage casts spells and whatnot, then all the enemies are dead after X+Y seconds. How is that comparison flawed?

    I think that X will be shorter after using TS. so (Xnew+Y) could be < X

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Yes, the new spells are far too OP in the current environment of the game. Keep them but make the battles harder.
    @Feytor The point is there's hardly an encounter in IWD that requires the tactical advantage TS gives. In BG2, it's really useful for dispelling a mage while he cannot defend himself, only to find 3 fighters beating on him the moment TS stops. In IWD, to reiterate, this doesn't happen.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited December 2014
    Not even close to OP. Don't change anything.
    Have people played the original?

    Everything dies incredibly quickly and easily to buffed multiclassed Fighters.

    So now they'll die incredibly quickly while Time Stopped? That doesn't change the difficulty much

    jackjack
  • PeckerPecker Member Posts: 28
    @Lord_Tansheron‌ Yeah, I see what you're saying. We're just taking different things into consideration for measuring the power of a spell. No sense arguing any further about different things. I said everything I really wanted to. It's all good.

    Although just to answer your question, I didn't just say that it was objectively powerful. My point was that if the criteria for the power of a spell is how much it affects your chances of winning a fight, then time stop is objectively powerful in that regard. That's it. Yeah, it's not necessary, the game is easy enough without it, and a most of the time it will just slow you down. But it is still very powerful. If you want to include more criteria for measuring the "power" of a spell that's fine, we'll have different conclusions.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Yes, the new spells are far too OP in the current environment of the game. Keep them but make the battles harder.
    I'd say TS is less useful in IWD as you don't have IA.

    Sure, it's great to have situation saving spells but I think there are other options that don't take up such a coveted spell slot.

    Maybe I'm just bad at this game but I found myself frequently challenged in every play through (though I still haven't finished the game due to wanting to keep the multiplayer blind run intact but we're up to the (first?) Lich in Dorns Deep just pass the first badge so hopefully finish soon.

    BelgarathMTH
  • NoonNoon Member Posts: 193
    Other
    Playing with a group of 6, I prefer to have fun with the IWD's specific spells. I only realize some BG spells could be nasty when i held Poquelin (at the end of lower Dorn) with the 8th Bigby spell, and slashed him to death. I restarted the fight without using it.

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,611
    edited December 2014
    I don't think this thread started out as "Does the possibility of getting the Time Stop spell unbalance IWD"?, or "Is Time Stop a good and efficient spell for a caster with access to ninth level arcane spells?"

    I'm afraid this topic is now hopelessly derailed and mixed up, especially considering that it was posted as a poll about the effect of *all* new spells on the balance of IWD.

    I would suggest that some moderator come around and clean out the "Time Stop" posts, and to start a new topic for that. Otherwise, @DJimmy 's intent in creating the thread seems to be lost. Unless, of course, he himself comes around and says "Oh no, no problem, go ahead and talk about Time Stop, because that's exactly what I intended here."

    PeckerJuliusBorisovGotural
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Other
    @BelgarathMTH - I knew I should have used ::sarcasm:: notations. Darn it...

    But thanks for trying to take me seriously. I've long ago given up the possibility of finding 'Balance' in the force... erm... I mean in these types of games. there are way to many different ways of doing things and someone is always coming up with new 'unbalanced' things to do. I just find it funny when someone posts "Balance". But to each their own.

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,611
    @the_spyder‌ , I was almost going to ask you if you were being facetious. But, I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. ;)

    jackjackthe_spyder
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    edited December 2014
    If you find them to be OP, don't use them. I only use Time Stop as a "pause" button anyways.
    To refine my answer (and as penance for my part in the TS incident :blush: ), I don't think the spells are OP. I think sorcerers are the culprit here. The sorcerer kit really enables shenanigans that the game never accounted for, especially in conjunction with the XP bonuses.

    In this sense it is similar to BGEE. Sorcerers gain access to spells the game did not intend the player to have until reaching Baldur's Gate, if they intended them at all.

    BelgarathMTH
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