Assassin Kit

Paladin

Hi all,

I am preparing for another BG2:EE run with patch 1.3 ready to roll. I was wondering how the Assassin kit performs throughout the course of the game. Poison seems pretty effective in BG1 but how does it fare in the latter parts of the series?

Also, do you all have any tips for effectively using the backstab multiplier plus poison? Combat ideas? I assume you'd send in your Assassin to take down a high profile target like a Mage before sending in the fighters to sweep up the brutes. Sound about right?

Thanks all!

-Pally

Musigny

It is fun to play.
However the mono class thieves (with the exception of swashbucklers to some extent) quickly reach their top features (you are still in SoA). Beyond that point they just aggregate new HLAs.

Kaydubbed

After that, what do you do? Dual class after the 7x backstab to a fighter/berserker?

fanscale

Have 18 strength to help with thac0. The usual strategy is to set a time trap then go around backstabbing everyone after it is triggered.

mumumomo

The main selling point of the assassin is poison weapon, one of the most OP skill in the whole game. Even in bg2ee it is extremely deadly (especially in the hand of a blackguard or assassin/fighter)

Backstab multiplier is not so great and a pure assassin will remain very far from the top backstabbers in the game (kensai thief, FM, FMT).

The main issue with assassin is that, quite early in bg2ee, they become unable to hit anything due to crappy thaco.

For maximum efficiency i would recommend dualling to fighter (poison weapon with fighter apr and thaco is just crazy).

I would dual either around level 6 (1 skill maxed) and 11 (2 skills maxed).
Above that, the downtime might be too long.

Paladin

Can Assassins dual to a Fighter? I thought that the kits were not able to dual class.

pixie359

You can't dual into a kit, so if you start with an assassin you can't become a kensai or berzerker, but you can dual out of one.

I think there are some restrictions on this for rangers dualing to clerics, but I'm not sure.

fanscale

There are heaps of enemies you will be able to backstab. You must be a little away from an enemy when you hide. Master that skill. Sneak attack give +4 bonus to attack?

Yannir

pixie359 said:

You can't dual into a kit, so if you start with an assassin you can't become a kensai or berzerker, but you can dual out of one.

I think there are some restrictions on this for rangers dualing to clerics, but I'm not sure.

In my experience, ranger kits can't dual, but standard rangers can. Once tried to make an archer dualed to mage but didn't work even with appropriate stats. Would've been awesome to have a mage with 5 pips in shortbows..

Demanius

Awh i would ve loved to play an archer/mage dual class.

Elf killer rampage

abacus

Yannir said:

pixie359 said:

You can't dual into a kit, so if you start with an assassin you can't become a kensai or berzerker, but you can dual out of one.

I think there are some restrictions on this for rangers dualing to clerics, but I'm not sure.

In my experience, ranger kits can't dual, but standard rangers can. Once tried to make an archer dualed to mage but didn't work even with appropriate stats. Would've been awesome to have a mage with 5 pips in shortbows..

That's because in BG & IWD you can only dual into "valid" multiclasses... That's to say, ones allowable by the games' engines.
Thus, Rangers can only combine with Clerics... Kitted or not.

Yannir

Demanius said:

Awh i would ve loved to play an archer/mage dual class.

Elf killer rampage

Sorry to burst your bubble but elves can't dual-class..

Paladin

mumumomo said:

The main selling point of the assassin is poison weapon, one of the most OP skill in the whole game. Even in bg2ee it is extremely deadly (especially in the hand of a blackguard or assassin/fighter)

Backstab multiplier is not so great and a pure assassin will remain very far from the top backstabbers in the game (kensai thief, FM, FMT).

The main issue with assassin is that, quite early in bg2ee, they become unable to hit anything due to crappy thaco.

For maximum efficiency i would recommend dualling to fighter (poison weapon with fighter apr and thaco is just crazy).

I would dual either around level 6 (1 skill maxed) and 11 (2 skills maxed).
Above that, the downtime might be too long.

This is very helpful. Thank you!

I like the idea of dual classing with Fighter at 11 to max out two skills. What two skills do you recommend? Hide and Move Silently? Seems like this would best capitalize on the Assassin's abilities, no?

I would also like for my PC to be the primary thief, so have some ability to open most locks/disable most traps in the game. Am I asking for too much? I could bring along Imoen if need be to help out.

Yannir

abacus said:

Yannir said:

pixie359 said:

You can't dual into a kit, so if you start with an assassin you can't become a kensai or berzerker, but you can dual out of one.

I think there are some restrictions on this for rangers dualing to clerics, but I'm not sure.

In my experience, ranger kits can't dual, but standard rangers can. Once tried to make an archer dualed to mage but didn't work even with appropriate stats. Would've been awesome to have a mage with 5 pips in shortbows..

That's because in BG & IWD you can only dual into "valid" multiclasses... That's to say, ones allowable by the games' engines.
Thus, Rangers can only combine with Clerics... Kitted or not.

Guess I need to try Beastie or Stalker/Cleric then. Archer wouldn't perform well with cleric since they can't use bows.

Nimran

Do archers get their bonus with slings?

elminster

Nimran said:

Do archers get their bonus with slings?

Yes but they can only get up to specialization in them. Not that this is at all on topic...

Paladin said:

I like the idea of dual classing with Fighter at 11 to max out two skills. What two skills do you recommend? Hide and Move Silently? Seems like this would best capitalize on the Assassin's abilities, no?

I would also like for my PC to be the primary thief, so have some ability to open most locks/disable most traps in the game. Am I asking for too much? I could bring along Imoen if need be to help out.

Honestly you probably aren't going to get your Hide in Shadows and Move Silently up to a point where they are particularly reliable in BGEE until probably at least mid way into the game. I'm not really sure how much use you'll get out of them particularly if you already have a party mage with invisibility at that point.

I'd instead consider putting towards utility abilities (Find Traps, Open Locks, etc). In BG2EE rings and other items that give you invisibility are more common. So there isn't as much of a need for putting towards Hide in Shadows or Move Silently.

mumumomo

The skills you want to take depend on your party composition.

If you have another thief, then you could go for HIS/MS to be able to use your backstab more frequently. but then you would be unable to find any traps or open any lock. Be also that you will not have enough skill points to to put both HIS and MS at 200 (needed for failproof hiding in daylight).

If you have no other thief, then you should make sure that you max find traps as this cannot be duplicated by other mean.

The second skill is up to you. Personally i would take set snares (if playing with a mage/cleric in the group) ot detect illusion (if solo)

The other skills are poor choices IMO
- HIS/MS requires a very heavy investment, and is therefore incompatible with find traps (the only "mandatory" theiving skill)
- Open locks can be duplicated by bashing locks or casting knock. Furthermore, there is almost nothing really valuable in locked, non bashable containers.
- If you want to pickpocket, you can always use 2-3 potions of master thievery

Regarding your party composition, keep in mind that during the time you level up to fighter 12, you will not be able to use your thieving skills. This can take a lot of time, especially if you play with a big group. During that period it could be wiser to bring another thief.

Quite frankly, apart from playing in a very small group, i would rather dual earlier (at level 6 or 7) to minimize the downtime.

smeagolheart

Yannir said:

Demanius said:

Awh i would ve loved to play an archer/mage dual class.

Elf killer rampage

Sorry to burst your bubble but elves can't dual-class..

I think he's saying he'd kill the elves. Because he'd be a human dual classed archer/mage if he could.

about maxing two skills, I'd go with open locks and find traps.

then when you get your skills back you won't need another thief. Also I'd consider going Mage instead of Fighter.

melf's minute meteors and assassin poison is going to be good.

Blackraven

@Paladin, I agree with Elminster. You can use potions and items of invisibility and have your mage cast invisibility on your character. For the same reason (thievery potions/items) I wouldn't invest in Open Locks.

Find/Disarm Traps is really good; no other class has that skill. And I find Detect Illusions quite useful, especially when solo, to dispel invisibility, mirror image, mislead etc. Priests and Wizards get True Seeing/Sight, so you may not want to invest in it.

Another option is to invest in set traps. If you dual at level 11 you'll have three traps that when triggered each deal 2d8+5 damage to any enemies within the area of effect of the Trap plus 2d6 poison damage per round for the next three rounds (which disrupts spell casting).

Edit: deleted a superfluous line

fanscale

If you want fighter thief I would do it the other way around. Otherwise your backstab will be low and you will be playing a mage or a fighter. Is it 30 starting points plus 25 points per level? 15 per level for Assassin

GamingFreak

mumumomo said:

The main selling point of the assassin is poison weapon, one of the most OP skill in the whole game. Even in bg2ee it is extremely deadly (especially in the hand of a blackguard or assassin/fighter)

Backstab multiplier is not so great and a pure assassin will remain very far from the top backstabbers in the game (kensai thief, FM, FMT).

The main issue with assassin is that, quite early in bg2ee, they become unable to hit anything due to crappy thaco.

For maximum efficiency i would recommend dualling to fighter (poison weapon with fighter apr and thaco is just crazy).

I would dual either around level 6 (1 skill maxed) and 11 (2 skills maxed).
Above that, the downtime might be too long.

While some would also consider this cheating, I could also recommend using the unnerfed Thac0 progression for non-fighter classes with BG2Tweaks. This way, while the assassin will still have a weaker thac0, he'll at least be able to hit crap in melee later on. Playing an elf and using blades that an Elf gives bonuses to-hit with also helps.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't Assassins put poison on their ranged-weapons similar to a blackguard? If so that's an option too.

mumumomo

Sure assassins can use PW on ranged weapon, but this does not change the fact that their thaco will remain rather poor:
At 1Mxp, an assassin would be level 15. Assuming an elf, using tuigan bow (the only choice really when you have no bonus to APR), and 20 in dex, you would get a THACO of 7.
A level 12 fighter with 19 str, a +3 weapon, and 2 pips would get a THACO of 0.

And this get worse and worse as you advance through the game.

That's actually the biggest flaw in the assassin design: its bonus are related to combat (backstab, poison weapon) but by the middle of the game it becomes a rather incompetent fighter.

For BGEE, it 's a very powerful class:
- bows and especially arrows are great (poison weapon + arrows of detonation = win)
- the thaco difference with a fighter is neglectable (9 for a level 10 elven assassin using +1 shortbow with normal arrows VS 7-8 for a level 8 fighters depending on strength)
But in BG2EE, due to the nerf of bows and a lacking THACO, it slowly fades away.

It's actually the complete opposite of the swashbuckler who is rather weak in BGEE and become a powerhouse as he gets some levels (20-25) under his belt.