Is Neera actually Chaotic Good?
LioraValkyrie
Member Posts: 17
I believe that Neera's moral character and the unpredicable quality of her magical abilities have been conflated in her development so that her alignment has been presented as Chaotic Neutral when in fact it is much closer to Chaotic Good. Some people on the forums have argued that she is too 'friendly' to be neutral, and this has been rebuffed by others, who suggest that even a truly diabolical character can be friendly when it is in their interest to be so. I agree with the latter, and do not suppose that Neera's friendliness has anything to do with her (in my opinion) miscast alignment.
The character creation screen reads: "Chaotic good characters are strong individualists marked by a streak of kindness and benevolence. They believe in all the virtues of goodness and right, but they have little use for people who "try to push folk around and tell them what to do." Their actions are guided by their own moral compass which, although good, may not always be in perfect agreement with the rest of society. A brave frontiersman forever moving on as settlers follow in his wake is an example of a chaotic good character."
This seems to describe Neera perfectly. In her in-game biography, she "seems to fear the harm [her wild magic] might cause." A Chaotic Neutral character, on the other hand, will "cheerfully and for no apparent purpose gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single die." If Neera were truly Chaotic Neutral, therefore, she would not fear the harm her wild magic occassionally causes. Rather, it is on account of her intention to do good that she harbours such fears. (And isn't alignment all about intention?) Such intentions are evidenced when Neera uses her last teleportation talisman to save a child in Athkatla, and thereby endangers her own life. The fact that she has created a wild mage refuge suggests, more than anything, that "her actions are guided by [her] own moral compass which, although good, may not always be in perfect agreement with the rest of society." Moreover, one could interpret the creation of such a refuge as the act of "a brave frontiersman" with a sense of her own moral compass. She is also a "strong individualist," evidenced by the fact that her greatest fear is "being taken by a crazy wizard who wants to tear you apart for what you are. Not even who I am. WHAT I am." Thus she values her individuality, and takes pride in her magic, but uses it out of a desire to do good. Indeed, she resents being judged not by her character ("who I am," a moral judgement), but by the quality of her magic ("WHAT I am," a non-moral judgement). Perhaps the developers- for whom my respect is nonetheless unwavering- did likewise? For, by contrast, a Chaotic Neutral character possesses no moral compass whatsoever. It is not of their concern whether their actions are good, evil or otherwise.
The only real argument for Neera being Chaotic Neutral, in my opinion, is that she continues to utilize her magic despite its unpredictable consequences. Perhaps a truly good character would leave magical pursuits aside and retire to the country? Yet here, you might recall a dialogue between Neera and Aerie wherein Aerie (Lawful Good) admits that she doubts that she would be able to continue using magic if it were as unpredictable as Neera's. However, Aerie says that she admires Neera's "nerve," which suggests her reluctance to be due to nervousness rather than a moral qualm.
Finally, from the character creation screen, "Chaotic neutral characters believe that there is no order to anything, including their own actions." Note the use of the term 'belief' - whilst there is no order to Neera's magic, this does not impinge upon her underlying intention for good to prevail. So that's my argument, in a nutshell (or was it on a lengthly, elaborate parchment?).
If you've any further thoughts, or counter-arguments of your own, do let me know!
The character creation screen reads: "Chaotic good characters are strong individualists marked by a streak of kindness and benevolence. They believe in all the virtues of goodness and right, but they have little use for people who "try to push folk around and tell them what to do." Their actions are guided by their own moral compass which, although good, may not always be in perfect agreement with the rest of society. A brave frontiersman forever moving on as settlers follow in his wake is an example of a chaotic good character."
This seems to describe Neera perfectly. In her in-game biography, she "seems to fear the harm [her wild magic] might cause." A Chaotic Neutral character, on the other hand, will "cheerfully and for no apparent purpose gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single die." If Neera were truly Chaotic Neutral, therefore, she would not fear the harm her wild magic occassionally causes. Rather, it is on account of her intention to do good that she harbours such fears. (And isn't alignment all about intention?) Such intentions are evidenced when Neera uses her last teleportation talisman to save a child in Athkatla, and thereby endangers her own life. The fact that she has created a wild mage refuge suggests, more than anything, that "her actions are guided by [her] own moral compass which, although good, may not always be in perfect agreement with the rest of society." Moreover, one could interpret the creation of such a refuge as the act of "a brave frontiersman" with a sense of her own moral compass. She is also a "strong individualist," evidenced by the fact that her greatest fear is "being taken by a crazy wizard who wants to tear you apart for what you are. Not even who I am. WHAT I am." Thus she values her individuality, and takes pride in her magic, but uses it out of a desire to do good. Indeed, she resents being judged not by her character ("who I am," a moral judgement), but by the quality of her magic ("WHAT I am," a non-moral judgement). Perhaps the developers- for whom my respect is nonetheless unwavering- did likewise? For, by contrast, a Chaotic Neutral character possesses no moral compass whatsoever. It is not of their concern whether their actions are good, evil or otherwise.
The only real argument for Neera being Chaotic Neutral, in my opinion, is that she continues to utilize her magic despite its unpredictable consequences. Perhaps a truly good character would leave magical pursuits aside and retire to the country? Yet here, you might recall a dialogue between Neera and Aerie wherein Aerie (Lawful Good) admits that she doubts that she would be able to continue using magic if it were as unpredictable as Neera's. However, Aerie says that she admires Neera's "nerve," which suggests her reluctance to be due to nervousness rather than a moral qualm.
Finally, from the character creation screen, "Chaotic neutral characters believe that there is no order to anything, including their own actions." Note the use of the term 'belief' - whilst there is no order to Neera's magic, this does not impinge upon her underlying intention for good to prevail. So that's my argument, in a nutshell (or was it on a lengthly, elaborate parchment?).
If you've any further thoughts, or counter-arguments of your own, do let me know!
5
Comments
"That's why the Refuge is so important. We wild mages need to hang together if we're going to beat the Order."
Also just because she has this one area where she has been good doesn't make her on the whole good. If I recall correctly Korgan takes a negative view of the slavers having child slaves, but he is still evil. Likewise Jaheira leans good but she is still true neutral.
The players manual of 2nd edition (and the game's description of the alignment) is a bit light on what exactly chaotic neutral is supposed to be, but the 3rd edition players handbook says the following regarding neutral characters (neutral on the good vs evil spectrum).
"People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have
compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the
commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral
people are committed to others by personal relationships. A neutral
person may sacrifice himself to protect his family or even his
homeland, but he would not do so for strangers who are not related
to him.
Being good or evil can be a conscious choice, as with the paladin
who attempts to live up to her ideals or the evil cleric who causes
pain and terror to emulate his god. For most people, though, being
good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose.
Being neutral between good and evil usually represents a lack of
commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a
positive commitment to a balanced view. While acknowledging that
good and evil are objective states, not just opinions, these folk
maintain that a balance between the two is the proper place for
people, or at least for them."
Ultimately these are just alignment guidelines and in this case I would argue that Neera is doing what she does because she has a connection with the wild mages she has come across through the fact that they are wild mages. If these were regular mages being persecuted, or regular people being persecuted by mages, she might lean towards intervening, but not necessarily. For instance even though she takes an issue with it she ultimately chooses to go along with the party if you decide to kill Valygar and hand his corpse over to the Cowled Wizards.
Compare Neera's behaviour to Minsc or Nalia (both chaotic good characters in BG2). Minsc is always looking to do good and Nalia was helping the poor and helping others long before you met her. Its really just a question of how interested in doing good Neera really is. Based on her behaviour I'd say she cares about people with whom she has a connection, but past that she is much more apathetic to helping others than I'd expect from a good aligned character.
As the 3rd Edition SRD noted: "Remember that the chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He's not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it."
Part of the confusion arising with Neera is that she is in direct opposition, throughout the series, to a lawful evil group. This does not make her good; chaotic and lawful groups are often in opposition regardless of morality. Also, BG's rules are not fair with regards to neutral morality characters. They should stick with evil groups regardless of reputation; alternatively, they should leave good groups when the reputation gets too high for their tastes (perhaps because of the powerful enemies it makes). Neutrals in BG by default do neither (which is behavior I always mod out). This unfairness makes ALL neutral characters seem to be more good than evil, including Jan Jansen, who otherwise could be pointed out as the best CN character ever written. He's not "whee haha" Chaotic Stupid; he's actually a bit of a boor. But he's CN! Mod the game so Neera won't leave at low rep and then play her in an evil party (if you can stomach taking her over the strongest mage in the game), and you'll see that good and evil are NOT high in her primary motivations.
Thank you for rekindling my memory- though I do not play PnP, I faintly recall reading the 3rd Edition description you cite in NWN. That seems to describe the situation with the refuge rather well, where the wild mages are considered a kind of family to Neera. Indeed, she lacks the overall do-gooder spirit of a Nalia or Minsc. The examples you give are good ones.
@AstroBryGuy
My D&D readings don't go very far beyond the infinity engine games and the forums surrounding them, so the distinction between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Stupid is a welcome one. Cheerfully received! Indeed, the description of Chaotic Neutral in the BG series seems to be describing Chaotic Stupid.
All in all, you have both improved the 'ethical coherence' of the whole Neera role-play situation for me so thank you once again for your replies! Though I should still like to note that the Chaotic Neutral alignment might need a bit more justice being done to its description in a future BG:EE update so as to make it more PC friendly.
for example, reading about a similar post regarding Hexxat I couldn't help but think that people insisting on her being neutral where wrong simply because she does attack you if you ask her to say 'please' at her demands regarding Dragomir's Cloak... only to find out that Aerie - a supposedly legal good character - has the very same reaction!
Neera, on the other hand, just walks away...
imho almost every single character in game should be neutral or evil, with possible exceptions for paladins and clerics (while working within a church), since they always do good only when have 'connection' to someone
However, this may be explained as her seeing them as her kin, as her family, and she knows by protecting and keeping them together, she also keeps herself safer on the whole, she will have allies and a true family to fall on. Neutral characters can be perfectly devoted to their family, friends, and allies as well.
Good characters go out of their way to help complete strangers and innocents alike. Neera helps the little girl in Bridge district, because she knows she is a wild mageling, a kin. Will she jump to help if she sees a perfectly normal child being abused by someone? Minsc will jump in in an instant, because he is chaotic good he will trash the abuser. While Edwin will chuckle and nod that if it is neccesary, it is a good way to keep annoying brat-monkeys in check. On the other hand, Neera may jump in to help the child. Maybe. Maybe she wants to try a new spell on the attacker to turn him into a chicken. Or maybe not.
In addition, developers did a good job in bg1 by representing every alignment corner with the new npcs, we have lawful and good Rasaad, neutral and evil Dorn, and chaotic and neutral Neera. I like that.
I think Neera is much more chaotic than good, thus she is chaotic neutral with good tendencies. Her independent and quirky personality, plus her love of wild magic is ultimately stronger than her desire to help others, though she does want to help. Sometimes.
Two cases for Neera to be Chaotic Neutral over good:
1) While she frets over the harm her wild magic does, it doesn't stop her from using it.
2) BG2 Neera Quest spoiler
Another example of her perhaps less than good tendencies:
I can think of one practical reason that I haven't seen mentioned, for her writers to have made Neera chaotic neutral.
They may have wanted to make her fit in equally well with either a good or an evil party, in order to get more people to try taking her and playing through all her new material for the EE's.
In fact, if you look at the EE characters on the whole, concern over pleasing both players who prefer good parties and players who prefer evil parties seems to have been on the writers' minds.
Of course, that's not always a good thing - sometimes she'll cast a spell like color spray that accidentally knocks out some of my own party members, and at least one time she got herself killed by charging at one of the wizards with her staff.
Apologies.
I've entered the Athkatla Government District with a party of Neera, Aerie and Keldorn and come across Viconia at the stake...
Aerie keeps mum. Fair enough. (A little off-topic: she soon reveals that she is afraid of / dislikes drow, and though your PC isn't technically supposed to be a drow, I would imagine her being open minded enough to let a drow CHARNAME off the hook after saving her from the circus illusions.)
Keldorn comments (paraphrased) "She's a drow. Must be up to no good. Let her burn." (I shall shortly be dumping Keldorn for adherence to such a narrow worldview!)
Neera comments "Ugh, I suppose we can't really let her smoulder, right? Right?"
This calls into question the whole line of argument about neutrals standing up for family and friends but being less willing to help strangers and innocents.
Also, concerning Neera's old boyfriend (Again off-topic: both she and Aerie have "feelings" for me, but my PC is female- do we have gay/lesbian romances in the EEs!? If so, nice
Finally, Neera complains at reputation 16 (popular). I'm not about to start bonking peasants over the head just to keep her happy. Aerie it is. lol.
Edit: A further further thought - wouldn't many evil characters, especially the scheming sort, want to be thought of as "popular" or "heroic"? It's ever such an ego boost, and lets you get away with the odd murder without interference from the authorities. We'll all recall Sarevok being the most popular guy in Baldur's Gate prior to our underming of his plans. Also, Neera is a little egotist and wishes the highest praise. Surely she'd want a high reputation, too.
This leads me to the idea that, in addition to class kits you could have alignment kits which provide minor adjustments, for example: Chaotic Neutral Neurotic: CHARNAME acts on impulse but feels remorse and repents afterwards, possibly afraid of her 'evil' alter ego, may protect herself from herself by casting 1x protection from evil on self; positive reaction to high reputation. Chaotic Neutral Lunatic: due to some form of inate or aquired mental instability, CHARNAME acts in a way that appears completely irrational to those around her, consequently their mind is difficult to access by enemy mages, +1 to save vs. Chaos, Confusion, Charm etc.; random reaction to reputation; Chaotic Neutral Rational: CHARNAME has decided through rational contemplation that there is no order to the universe and behaves accordingly, actively strives to hold no moral opinions whatsoever, may 'opt out' of conflict by casting 1x sanctuary on self; no reaction to reputation.
If there is something similar in existence, let me know; if you like the idea let me know and I might start a new thread and develop it further.
And she also comments (favourably) on rep increase from "bad" levels. Looks like neutral it is.