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Why is the last fight in IWDale 1 so Horrificly unfair?

He's got everything against you. There's really no point in even trying to get a 6 man party because if 1 horrificly powerful and difficult dwarven defender cant tackle him with spell support what is the point?

None of my characters can hit him, my dwarf sometimes does, my dragon disciple cant use attack spells against behlefhit, he traps the room so you need a thief, cleric/mage can buff but he counters that at beginning so you have to buff in mid fight which is tactically and extremely dangerous.

I beat the fight on Story mode, but there's no way you can tackle this guy unless you are a powergamer on any other difficulties.

D & D bosses have been known to becoming the biggest pos around in that they just become immune to nearly everything except like 1 or 2 things that work.

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Comments

  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    Im lvl 14, Lv14 and lv14. I have max strength and can take a beating as 70% damage is reduced with -7 armor class on dwarf.

    I dont think there was any other quests to do other than fighting behlephet.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I dunno, I don't tend to powergame very hard (my most recent party was entirely single-classed and contained only one shorty, for example), and I beat him on hard. Granted, it was far and away the hardest fight in the game, but I managed it eventually. Not trying to brag, here. I agree that it's ridiculously difficult, but it's not impossible. And frankly, to me, that's what a final boss should be. Anything less feels like a disappointment. *shrug*
  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 650
    I agree that the last fight seems out of balance with the rest of the game. I found the game to be pretty smooth over all (first time IWD player here), but as soon as I ran into Mr. B, that all changed. I did end up beating him, but it took epic kiting with a bow and haste potions. Only one out of 6 characters survived the encounter.

    I look forward to meeting that SoB again :angry:

    He kind of reminds me of Karoug. He is also very difficult the first time you face him.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    It's a whole trope these days where the developers make the final boss so ridiculously tough that you end up only winning through random luck. To my thinking it is sloppy design, but the deed is done sometimes. Often times it is done to extend game play hours, and sometimes it is done so that they can say it was a "challenge". Which basically means that players like us have to suffer (i've never beat him, but then I am not a great player anyway, so I just admit that I won't ever finish it).

    And yes, Karoug comes to mind, but in that case there is a trick that, once learned, makes the fight significantly easier (if not necessarily 'Easy'). I don't think there is anything like that with this battle.
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    Sarevok is fairly simple-Dont engage him alone and always have someone to take his attention. Behlephet is just a nightmare compared to Sarevok. However Sarevok is lvl 16 and Behlehphet is likely lv25. If Sarevok had the same equipment and went against Mr. B, that would be interesting. It would just be a slugfest, haha

    Planescape main boss transcendent one was a nightmare for a melee char but he was manageable. You get through planescape with N.O. Thief or warrior and Morte-Just 2 chars

    Irenicus was a pain in a different way. It was unpredicatable what he would do because he was a mage, but at the same time if you are just a melee powerhouse you can slug him to death with some support of dispel and Dorn.

    Dorn can kill Irenicus alone with poison weapon, good gear and high critical hit attacks.
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    Jarrakul said:

    I dunno, I don't tend to powergame very hard (my most recent party was entirely single-classed and contained only one shorty, for example), and I beat him on hard. Granted, it was far and away the hardest fight in the game, but I managed it eventually. Not trying to brag, here. I agree that it's ridiculously difficult, but it's not impossible. And frankly, to me, that's what a final boss should be. Anything less feels like a disappointment. *shrug*

    I will definitely agree with you, to a point. Some boss fights were just a mess. Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance 1 on Xbox was a nightmare! The main boss can kill anyone regardless of armor in 1-2 hits. Getting into melee doesnt work, she is immune to lightning and most other magic, when the fight rages on she gets bigger than behlehphet and becomes undead shadowknight.

    This is all on normal difficulty which i beat on my 38th try. On hard her laugh must cause an earthquake that causes instant heart attack.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I kind of wonder what some of you folks think of Dark Souls? Talk about tough boss battles...
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307

    I kind of wonder what some of you folks think of Dark Souls? Talk about tough boss battles...

    Well I would say it cant be worse than Dark Alliance1. The enemies in act 1-4 all have the ability to critically hit at any time and kill in 1 hit. The worse part of it is that it happens to be poor balance or random.

    I heard that Dark souls was just unforgiving rather than imbalanced. Imbalanced is really hard to beat because what can you do when the fight in brutally unforgiving and also horribly imbalanced.

    In normal difficulty Dark Alliance is probably less hard than dark souls maybe. However, on hard, I really cant think of why you would want to do it other than bragging rights I guess.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I agree that there's a difference between unforgiving and imbalanced, but the difference between imbalanced and "you're using the wrong tactics" isn't always clear in a tactical game like IWD. To me, Belhifet is more the later (although even with the right tactics, I wouldn't say it's an easy fight by any means). Karoug definitely is, to the point of being trivial once you figure out the right tricks. Of course, you can go too far in that direction and get "hard-counter or die" situations like Kangaxx. I like Belhifet precisely because he both requires some serious thinking and doesn't roll over and die once you've figured him out. To me, that's awesome.

    Then again, I'm kind of a glutton for punishment in a lot of games, so maybe that's it.
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    I always thought that all the infinity engine games were like that. Sarevok, Transcendent One and Behlehphet wont roll over and die. If you try and use brute force you will likely run into a trap or lose a party member.

    You will usually find imbalanced and too easy rather than wont roll over and die. In dins curse, if you get to the 2nd difficulty or later, there is a chance that a boss named taris will show up and if you are melee or ranged you will die over and over again. You will get hit 1 time and die.

    It took a moderator's help in multiplayer game to freeze the boss and slowly they killed him.

    Thats not imbalanced, the game is a graphical roguelike and that is how the game is meant to play. You will never know what happens.

    The difference between imbalanced and that is this- that game allows you to make a whole new world and chance to get new enemies possible to beat.

    With dark alliance and imbalanced-this is what we have to work with.

    I still like the game because it challenges me just right.

    I just think that behlephet is one tough hombre who I would not want to run into on the playground :)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Sounds to me like the issue is more that it's a bit disconnected from the difficulty of the rest of the game, rather than being super difficult in the abstract. I for one did not find the fight overly challenging on HoF, but that may just have been the extra XP talking. Maybe that's a factor? 14 vs. 25 does sound like a bit of a mismatch.
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307

    Sounds to me like the issue is more that it's a bit disconnected from the difficulty of the rest of the game, rather than being super difficult in the abstract. I for one did not find the fight overly challenging on HoF, but that may just have been the extra XP talking. Maybe that's a factor? 14 vs. 25 does sound like a bit of a mismatch.

    So wait, what is the minimum lvl were talking of going up against him? I was 14 what should I have been?
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    14 is fine. I'm usually about that. Lord_Tansheron is just saying that it does sound pretty harsh, and maybe Belhifet doesn't scale as well with HoF, considering all the extra experience the party gains on that mode.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited January 2015
    it's no worse then Aec'letec in BG1 or the level difference between Sarevok and your party in BG1. Generally speaking, with the exception of playing SoA with ToB installed, the main villain is almost always around 8-10 levels higher then you. (though it should be noted, unless you're talking spell-casters, levels after 10 are basically empty with very few bonuses gained).

    Not to mention, people have been soloing him years without all the "enhancements" that EE brought.

    really the only main difference is that he's a powerful demon, as opposed to a player class that is simply higher level then you, which gives him some extra umph, though he's definitely on a higher level then Aec is (since he's pretty easy once you know the trick to his fight and have some potions to block his death-gaze).
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    Because final boss.
    That's how it should be. You're fighting a unique pit fiend or something. (Whatever kind of devil Belhifet is).

    Also, it counterbalances that you have BG2's kits and spells.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    He's level 15 for the record (by comparison Aec'letec is level 10). He also has (on core difficulty) 350 hp, -12 AC, immunity to level 1-9 spells, 25% slashing/piercing/blunt resistance and 50% missile damage resistance. As well as 100% fire resistance and 100% cold resistance. Plus he has invisibility detection, immunity to poison (as well as a number of other effects), and is immune to +2 weapons and lower.
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    I remember fighting him with a single fighter/cleric in HoF in IWD(not EE). He was a challenge. In IWD:EE with a single kensai/mage in HoF he was a joke. He didn't even manage to hit me once.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited January 2015
    DKnight said:


    I heard that Dark souls was just unforgiving rather than imbalanced. Imbalanced is really hard to beat because what can you do when the fight in brutally unforgiving and also horribly imbalanced.

    You are absolutely right in that Dark Souls is more unforgiving than unbalanced. And I wasn't trying to say that it was "Harder" than the final battle in IWD. In fact, I have defeated Dark Souls, but not IWD, so....

    I was just trying to relate by involving something that was REALLY tough "to me".
    elminster said:

    He's level 15 for the record (by comparison Aec'letec is level 10). He also has (on core difficulty) 350 hp, -12 AC, immunity to level 1-9 spells, 25% slashing/piercing/blunt resistance and 50% missile damage resistance. As well as 100% fire resistance and 100% cold resistance. Plus he has invisibility detection, immunity to poison (as well as a number of other effects), and is immune to +2 weapons and lower.

    Ash: Well, it's an interesting combination of elements making him a... tough little son-of-a-b!+ch.
  • JurisJuris Member Posts: 113
    First time I did the last IWD1 boss battle without knowing what I'd face I lost, but that was mostly because of the dispel magic. The second time I knew what I was facing and waited to cast buff spells/potions until after the dispel. Also the third level priest spell to clear the poison cloud (Zone of Sweet Air I think). After that it wasn't too hard even without a min-max party.
  • JotaJota Member Posts: 50
    edited January 2015
    @Djimmy‌ with a kensai/mage you beat him in HoF?! How the hell did you managed that? I have a kensai/mage and it's been a pain in the ass! mostly because of the golems and the traps but still...I am going insane trying to beat him in HoF but i only tried 3/4 times! Still thinking of how to do it! those traps are a pain in the ass in HoF!
  • BigCitySheltsBigCityShelts Member Posts: 7
    Judging by pure reload count, I would say IWD is harder. I reloaded more times fighting Behlefhit than any given boss in Dark Souls 1 or 2. Maybe for full game experience DS is harder than IWD. But, specifically Behlefhit's difficulty is memorably high in both IWD 1 and 2.

    I'm not a power gamer and I beat Behlefhit on hard difficuty after probably 50 reloads. Just try different tactics. Don't do the same thing time after time and hope the odds bend in your favor.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    Judging by pure reload count, I would say IWD is harder. I reloaded more times fighting Behlefhit than any given boss in Dark Souls 1 or 2. Maybe for full game experience DS is harder than IWD. But, specifically Behlefhit's difficulty is memorably high in both IWD 1 and 2.

    I don't say that Dark Souls was harder. I just say that it is brutally unforgiving in most scenarios. And if you play Dark Souls 2 and "Mistakenly" join "Company of Heroes" at the beginning of the game... Fuh... Talk about masochistic.
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    Yeah but you gotta figure a few things. The IWDale games and infinity engine games arent built on having reflexes so if you know the rules and did most or a lot of things right-its entirely possible to beat him 1st try.

    With games that rely on reflexes, its much tougher in my opinion because its unpredictable, wildly unpredictable.

    The only game that challenges me for boss fights in turnbased games is Behlephet & Redbeard and that is it. Sarevok I beat with 2 single classes thieves in melee combat, Transcendent one i beat with thief and annah in melee, Avernum EFTP supposed to be hard with party of 4. I finished main boss with party of 2 and an easy fight it was. Loren was a joke. Avadon was tough but manageable. Planet stronghold was manageable.

    Turnbased games are more predictable than real time action rpgs. Unpredictable makes 10 tries turn into 50-60.

  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    However there is one thing to say that regards difficulty in general.

    Rpgs Vs. Action/rpgs with difficulty

    I would say that-

    Tactical/Rpgs Vs. Action/rpgs is no contest going to Tactical rpgs in favor

    Rpgs you can grind from time to time. In tactical rpgs you might NEVER understand what there is to do in situation because it is never a fair fight.

    Comparatively speaking, if IWDale 1 was turned to tactical/rpg. The dm might say let your 1 or 2 characters out of 6 have to fight behlephet instead of the whole team. Its not fair.

    Find a way to make it work.

    I dont know how you could manage because I am not good at those games.

    Tactical rpgs Vs. Roguelikes. It still goes to tactical rpgs in my opinion, but maybe thats cuz ive beaten a few roguelikes ;)
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited January 2015
    Well, like the_spyder stated: You can solo Belhifet in HoF-Mode. You can beat him even with a no-caster class like the Monk. Just played through the final part of the game today. You want to know how to do this?

    Here is how the monk took Belhifet down: Sadly enough kiting him was not possible - damn i needed a better sling. Going into Melee Range against Belhifet was troublesome cause he hits really hard (70 damage is no problem for him). The trick was: Attack him after he teleported! In this case he will not attack instantly as he is on his run for a spellcast. To avoid the dispel-traps i moved on the outer circle only. Thanks to his high movement speed the monk was able to outrun the monsters pretty easily. From there he was circling and waiting for Belhifet to teleport to a new location. When he was in time he ran up to the demon, hit him once and circled again. From time to time Belhifet will summon new shadow monsters – ignore them. If he is in the inner circle and running to you – ignore him. Because if you try to hit him in this case he will instantly counterattack. To survive his Fire Spells the Monk used: Mantle of the Coming Storm (30 %), Scroll of Protection from Fire (50 %) and Fire Resistance Potion (50 %) = 127 % (?) Fire Resistance. Beating Belhifet down in this cautious manner took a while but in the end he got a fine result: Monk 142 HP – Belhifet 0 HP.

    Thats how it can work - hope this helps! :wink:
    Post edited by Harpagornis on
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    What other melee classes would you say could work in Solo mode?

    I wanted to try a fighter/druid, Ranger/cleric, Ranger, Monk of dark moon, Swashbuckler

    I really wanted to go with swashbuckler but not sure if that would. I know swashy can get some high ac and damage scores late in game.
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,658
    edited January 2015
    To be specific: I played a Dark Moon Monk. Its maybe the best Monk-Kit for HoF thanks to Blur + Mirror Image. Not to forget: He instakilled Yxunomei with Quivering Palm - thats insane. Blind works great vs Undead making them completly helpless. With Frozen Fist you can later on hit through Stoneskins - say hello Spell Failure! :smiley:

    If you want to play a "pure Warrior" than multi- or dualclass is not allowed. So Orc-Swashbuckler would be high on my personal list. Dwarf- or Orc-Barbarian could be interesting too. Just give it a try! :wink:
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @DKnight - I see things slightly differently. I am no spring chicken anymore and my reflexes are not what they used to be. Yet still I've done pretty well in Dark Souls and Dark souls 2.

    Defeating any given enemy in Dark souls is by no means exclusively about reflexes. They play a part to be sure, but they are not the end all/be all of the game. If you go in expecting that button mashing and reflexes will get it done, you are not going to get very far. You have to be VERY Tactical in your approach and those tactics change from enemy to enemy. That's why people say that it is unforgiving. If your tactics aren't there, you are dead.

    I've often struggled with the differentiation between Tactical and Strategic. I can honestly say that the difference is that Baldur's gate/Infinity engine games (and most D&D games at large) are Strategic and Dark Souls is tactical.
  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    I dont doubt you that its hard. It used to be other way around for me. I never knew how stategy rpgs worked. Once I got into them, they became just pointless on normal cept a few. The ones that are hard make me come back for more.

    I guess you play what is most difficult and provides the RIGHT challenge. Just listening to you talk about that game makes me hope to play on console some day.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I don't play it because it is hard. I don't thrive on the challenge. I honestly love the game and the beauty of the game play. Yes, it is challenging. But more than that it isn't a simple calculation of DPS. It takes artistry to play the game and tactics to win it.

    I've said before, I am not a great player. I play what is fun. Dark souls 2 at the moment is fun. I'd recommend it for anyone who likes RPGs and can think tactically.
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