Korgan shouldn't be classified as evil
Grum
Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
Or at least should be able to turn neutral. Why? Because of this:
[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/2dsjrcx.png[/IMG]
That really doesn't come across as someone who is chaotic evil. Sure, when you meet him he's a blood thirsty killer, and a mercenary through and through. But Mazzy seems to be able to bring some of the good out in him, or at least make him try.
Maybe its just me, but I think that if you have Korgan and Mazzy in your party, Korgan should turn Chaotic Neutral. Someone who is still a berserker who is pretty darn likely to split you from throat to groin with his axe, but at the same time at least somewhat aware that there are those who deserve such a fate more than others.
[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/2dsjrcx.png[/IMG]
![http://i61.tinypic.com/2dsjrcx.png[/IMG]](/home/leaving?allowTrusted=1&target=http%3A%2F%2Fi61.tinypic.com%2F2dsjrcx.png%5B%2FIMG%5D){kind=link}
That really doesn't come across as someone who is chaotic evil. Sure, when you meet him he's a blood thirsty killer, and a mercenary through and through. But Mazzy seems to be able to bring some of the good out in him, or at least make him try.
Maybe its just me, but I think that if you have Korgan and Mazzy in your party, Korgan should turn Chaotic Neutral. Someone who is still a berserker who is pretty darn likely to split you from throat to groin with his axe, but at the same time at least somewhat aware that there are those who deserve such a fate more than others.
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Comments
Personally I like how Viconia and Amoen can change alignments. It'd be nice to have that for Korgan and Charname as well.
Considering how cruel Korgan can be to certain other NPCs, I think Evil is a pretty safe alignment for him. He likes killing for it's own sake, at least Kagain is just a greedy. He is similar to Sarevok in BG1 for personality and goals actually, in that he is that self-centered, that obsessed with needless death etc.
If a heap of dialogues were modded in, and the party features both Keldorn AND Mazzy, I could see Korgan evolving to CN probably, but it would be a bit of a stretch. Keldorn has iirc substantial respect Korgan, and sees him as certainly useful. Could be a mod, but I had him start waxing philosophical after Korgan killed the Dragon in Hell. He didn't mention converting Korgan, but there could be room to expand that dialogue.
Alignments are tricky and leave plenty of leeway. Two people, who are both Chaotic Evil, can be worlds apart in personality. Why couldn't he be "incapable of basic social interaction or of forming friendships", as you say?
If chaotic evil can work in a group, clearly social interaction is not always problematic. I would agree with the position that CE only works with others if it is going to offer them some significant dividend they cannot get alone, but lawful irl seems WAY worse at socialization when extreme. Lawful stupid paladins have no friends, not even their God likes them, let alone the heirarchy they serve!
As to the issue at hand, I don't think a tragic past or not wanting to antagonize your friends/coworkers makes you non-evil. The simple truth is, if the only reason you don't kill random people who annoy you is that your friends would hate you for it, you're evil. Not as bad as some, sure, but you have fear of repercussions where your morality should be. That's not a good trait, and when it comes to things like casual murder, it's not even a neutral one.
Being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean that you are schizo and paranoid.
Also, Sarevok is Chaotic Evil and he ran for mayor and was basically a politician.
Also, Elminster is Chaotic Good too.
I really don't think he's a bad dude at all.
I'd have a guy like that in my party anyday, you know he'll never back down, he takes pride in his battle prowess, and seems more trustworthy than many of the "good" aligned characters.
Oh and thanks for adding that dialogue, that was exactly some of the info I was wanting to find out!
Yeah, Korgan's a real charmer.
I'd say Myth Drannor, for example, was an extremely organized society with a royal family, noble-run government and a strong standing military. And for a millennia, it was run by elves. That's lawful behaviour, not chaotic in the slightest.
2. But, well, being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean NOT being schizo and paranoid either, does it?
And after some deliberation, I'd say Korgan is Neutral Evil instead of CE. He fights for the highest bidder, that's NE behaviour. The epitome of NE, really.
And no, "fighting for the highest bidder" is not "the epitome of NE". It's just good business sense.
My favorite example of chaotic evil, for the record, is Bishop in NWN2. He's clearly a bad person, and he wants nothing at all to do with rules, even ones manipulated to his advantage. He's not above murder, and he's certainly not inclined to help people unless he's getting something out of it, but he's functional in a party, more-or-less tolerates society, and doesn't randomly kill people for fun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)
Check for yourself. Maybe it's not the epitome indeed but it fits a NE-character better than a chaotic one.
Here are the descriptions of the Chaotic alignments:
Chaotic Good:
"Chaotic good combines a good heart with a free spirit.
A chaotic good character acts as his conscience directs him with little regard for what others expect of him. He is kind and benevolent, a strong individualist hostile to the claims of rules, regulations, and social order. He hates it when people try to intimidate others and tell them what to do. He will actively work to bring down unjust rulers and organizations and to liberate the oppressed. He finds lawful societies distasteful and will avoid them, often living as a nomad or hermit.
Noble rebel leaders fighting corrupt or venal regimes, vigilantes acting for what they see as the greater good, mercenaries who only work for the "good guys" and anyone who "robs from the rich to give to the poor" are all examples of chaotic good characters."
Chaotic Neutral:
Chaotic neutral is freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but does not strive to protect the freedom of others. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character doesn't intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or by evil (and a desire to make others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
A wandering rogue who lives both by work for hire and petty theft is an example of a chaotic neutral character.
Chaotic Evil:
Chaotic evil is power without control - selfishness unfettered by any law.
A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. His plans are haphazard and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
These characters will commit any act to further their own ends. Chaotic evil is sometimes called "demonic" because demons are the embodiment of chaotic evil.
Many serial killers would fit this description, as would indeed most of the more violent and reckless criminals found in the worst sorts of places.
2. That's a logical fallacy: "being Chaotic in DnD doesn't mean NOT being schizo and paranoid either, does it?"
That's like saying: "it doesn't say that gods AREN'T polymorphed hamsters, so they could be".
No. It doesn't say that chaotic people are paranoid and schizo, therefore they aren't. If they were, they would have mentioned it. End of story.
You can't say "it doesn't say it, therefore it could be". If it doesn't say it, it's not. That's how rules work.
Elves are chaotic because they value individualism, freedom, creativity and following the spirit of the law instead of the letter.
Not because they are insane. And if they are not, their alignment is wrong because that's your interpretation of it.
Also, don't bring RL philosophy, societies and psychology into DnD. Because it's not RL and it's not made to be like one.
Also in DnD being Chaotic is not absence of laws and rules or traditions.
TL;DR: Alignments were made by the creators to be the way they are. They decide what is true or what isn't.
They made elves chaotic and don't mention insanity for chaotics. Therefore, it's not a matter of debate.
Just because you disagree, it doesn't change that this is the way it works, because they said so.
It works like that, because it's their lore and game. Period.
"In my world, this is the way it works."
Also, the previous points raised by some others, which I won't long-wind everything by repeating: namely that being a victim of his past doesn't justify his present day actions due to audience sympathy, etc.
You can't say "Well, he enjoys butchering people because this or that in the past, so he's not really evil."
Actions are far more important than intentions or background, for alignments in DnD.
But there is no such thing as alignments in the real world. If there was, then certainly nobody would be "Evil".
Even the "murderers" who got gassed or electricuted have a story and reason to tell, its only the media which wants a good-frightening story which portrays them dat "evil" way
hence please stop all this alignement bs. Youre not chaotic neutral or neutral good, we IRL humans are much more complicated than that.
People may think "well I am chaotic good because I like being good but I also like freedom".
I like to eat apples, does this alone make me a vegetarian?
I mean, ive been to jail and to shithole and back and i aint never met a truly "evil" person (aside from those people in church who think "god" gave them a right and a mission to kill/teach others their ways)
ALORA: Smile more often, Edwin. It looks good on you.
EDWIN: Her company is refreshing but I am surprised I find it so.
ALORA: Everyone is basically decent, once you get them to unwrinkle their faces.