Which class to play for this play style - backstab, retreat to ranged ?

rickcr

Currently I'm playing a sorcerer as my main in BG1 (only in the start of chapter 4) but have a few others rolled up. I'm looking ahead though to bringing the toon over to BG2 so I want one that will be decent there as well.

I'd like to try out a class that can stealth ahead and backstab and then get away and fire away from ranged (or fire away via spells from range) and then as my main melee troops engage, I can stay at range and attack or move in and backstab more.

From reading it seems like the best choices for this would fall into the following choices:
Stalker, assassin (or possibly bounty hunter), F/T, M/T, or C/T - then of course dual or multi ?

If I don't care about remaining in close for Melee, does that factor in my choice?

Some concerns:

1) How penalized are you trying to stealth ahead without being able to detect traps (if you were a Stalker for instance.) Right now I haven't had to worry much about traps but I know they're coming and I don't want to have to bring around a thief at the same time if I end up a stalker.)

2) I hear in BG2 backstabbing becomes a lot less viable due to the number of enemies immune to it. What kind of numbers are we talking here... 50% of battles? (or is it a lot of enemies only strikeable by blunt weapons.. which still keeps the C/T on the table.)

3) If you don't plan to melee do you still gain a lot by going F/T vs pure assassin for instance? I take it when of the benefits to F/T is not so much melee options and HP but has to do with chance to hit and hitting harder as a reason why F/T is a good combo?

4) what are the main drawbacks to a M/T? Is it that they typically don't hit hard enough relative to other combos?

Thanks for your thoughts

Tresset

Shadowdancer sounds absolutely perfect for this. They even have a perfect spell for the retreat part called Shadowstep. Now to your questions:

1. First of all, you can't stealth and find traps at the same time. You have to pick either one or the other to do. The only exception to this rule is if you have someone cast invisibility on you in which case you will be able to be invisible and look for and disarm traps at the same time. just don't pick locks or attack because if you do you will need another invisibility.

2. There are actually not that many enemies immune to backstab in BG2. I would estimate that roughly 5% - 15% of enemies are immune. I wouldn't worry about that too much.

3. F/T is both a powerful backstabber and a skilled fighter. Their biggest strength is that they can fight quite well even without having to backstab. On top of that, their backstabs are very powerful since they are backed by fighter power and they have great THAC0 so you will rarely miss a backstab.

4. I don't know much about M/T so I will let others comment on that.

Blackraven

The best class for what you're looking would imo be an Elven Mage/Thief. I say Elven because Elves get nice bonuses to their thac0 and damage with bows. (Gnome Illusionist/Thief gets one more spell per level, but with one less DEX and no innate weapon bonuses, they come behind the Elf Mage/Thief for the type of character you envision.)

Why Mage/Thief?
Thieves are fairly good ranged attackers, though of course not as good as warriors, and they're also the best scouts, better than Rangers or Monks because those two can't disarm traps - which is something you'll probably like your character to do while scouting ahead in dungeons. (answer to your question 1: yes there are many traps in variosu areas in the game that can instantly kill a character)
Magic can be used to enhance your scouting/ranged activity. For example: with the Invisibility spell you'll be able to disarm traps without ever becoming visible, Melf's Minute Meteors are a very good ranged arcane weapon, (Improved) Haste can increase your number of attacks per round while Slow will slow down enemies and keep them at a good distance for ranged attacking.

Cleric/Thief has only Slings as their ranged weapon option, which at one APR isn't too exciting. Fighter/Thief is great, better at ranged attacking than Mage/Thief, but come BG2 more likely to occupy themselves in melee combat as well as you already suggested, unlike the Mage/Thief.

Having said that, Baldur's Gate isn't necessarily about looking for the strongest possible class. An Assassin with poisoned arrows or darts is a killing machine, and will be a lot of fun for that reason. Getting only 15 skillpoints per level is a drawback though, especially if you run a full party with no more Thieves in it. Bounty Hunters suffer a bit less in that regard. They also fit your character type: scouting enemies ahead, returning to set your traps, and luring enemies toward the traps and your companions until booom! ... dead (or almost deead) enemies, very satisfactory.

re: question 2: backstabbing is great in SoA but a bit less so in ToB where a number of bosses and enemies are immune. However by that time you'll have other abilities (greater whirlwinds for a Stalker or Fighter, UAI and special traps for a Thief, high level spells if part Mage or part Cleric).

re: 3 a Fighter/Thief will generally be better at everything combat-related in both ranged and melee fighting (chance to hit, amount of damage, frequency of attacks), thanks to the Fighter levels. So yes, the Fighter/Thief will be stronger than the Assassin. However, with the right gear, poison, and weapons that give many attacks per round (darts, light crossbow of speed in BG1, crimson dart, tuigan shortbow in BG2) an Assassin can be a perfectly viable ranged attacker.

re: 4: see the first two paragraphs above. Their disadvantage is that they develop a bit slow, so in early to mid BG1 you might not feel as badass (even though there are some very useful low level spells you can use). But eventually they'll hit hard and often enough, and they'll become the strongest build out of the ones you mentioned.

rickcr

Great stuff guys thanks!
Looking over the shadowdancer I think I'll pass since I'd like to mess around setting traps (maybe I'll find it annoying but at least want the option.)

At the moment (which changes it seems every minute:), I'm leaning towards either a multi M/T (or gnome I/T) or a pure bounty hunter (even though most say to not play a bounty hunter since at high levels a thief gets enough traps to make it not worth the bounty hunter.)

Although based on my play style I mentioned, the elven M/T fits the stereotype better, I'm thinking the extra spell the I/T gets as a gnome (plus save bonus) would be nice to have, even if I end up slightly gimped (relatively speaking) on the bow/sword side of things. I could see that extra slot for an extra invisibility being really nice (and I'll have another caster around for necromancy.)

Blackraven

@rickcr, as to the Bounty Hunter, don't believe what some others say. The BH's special traps become maze traps as of level 21: all enemies in the AoE of the trap will get mazed (no save, no magic resistance). As you might know the duration of a Maze depends on the victim's intelligence. Since most enemies have different intelligence scores, they won't be all be mazed for the same amount of time, so your BH can wait while everyone is away, maybe place a few damage traps where you know enemies will return, and see your foes come back one or two at a time, which really makes combat a lot more manageable.
None of the HLA traps that other rogues get are like that, so imo the BH's special traps do not become obsolete as soon as you get access to HLA traps.

Also, remember that the BH's special traps are the only traps that can be thrown, at least in BG2EE, not in BGEE for some reason. This means that they're much easier to use, because while you cannot set traps in front of enemies you'll be able to throw your special traps toward them from beyond their visual range.

As to the dilemma between Gnome I/T and Elf M/T, I agree that I/T is a bit stronger in the end thanks to the saves and the extra spells (even if you miss out on all the Necromancy spells, including Horror, Skull Trap and ADHW). In BG1 the difference in ranged effectiveness is noticeable though. I've been playing around a bit with no-reload thieves, and found my Elves to be much more reliable with their bows during half of BG1 than other races. (A 19 DEX Halfling with darts would be competitive, as they get a thac0 bonus to their use of darts, but they can't be Mage/Thieves).

Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun with the character concept you have in mind.

FinneousPJ

FMT, the best of all worlds.

Jarrakul

I'd go with some sort of M/T, just because archery becomes less viable in BG2, while spellcasting becomes stronger. With a single-classed thief, the both backstabs and ranged attacks are gonna become less powerful throughout BG2 and TOB. Mage spellcasting, on the other hand, will become increasingly powerful, which should make up for the difference.

Now, as for elf or gnome, there's an argument for both. Elf is probably gonna be better in BG1, where bows are king. But as you move into BG2, where bows are weaker and your mage half is more important, gnomes will have the advantage. That said, the gnome save bonus is really strong in BG1, and the loss of necromancy spells is more painful in BG2. I do know illusionists are generally considered stronger than unkitted mages, though, so ultimately that's probably your most powerful option.

Tresset

Blackraven said:

The BH's special traps become maze traps as of level 21: all enemies in the AoE of the trap will get mazed (no save, no magic resistance).

Say wha....? I suppose I should have known this, but the thought never occurred to me that the bounty hunter's trap hit everyone in the area. And no MR? Maybe the BH is good for something after all... Hmm...