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[MOD]Infamy v.5 *beta*

wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
edited February 2015 in General Modding
I decided to separate a part of my Classes Reborn mod into it's own mod, partly because people may want to play it without my mod, and partly because I'd like feedback on this one aspect in advance.

The biggest problem with reputation isn't necessarily how it is implemented (meaning, gaining or losing rep) but what reputation actually means. The game implies low rep is evil and everyone treats you like crap while high rep is saintly and everyone wants to shine your boots. Funny thing is, life don't work that way. You go into a meat shop in North Jersey, and the police would pay full price while the mafia would get a nice discount. But who has what reputation?

So, this mod meshes together Charisma and a modified approach on reputation. I'll hit each point.

First, reputation is fleeting. If Jon Gotti was alive today and walked into a store, most people wouldn't recognize him. If you want to keep your rep up, you have to work at it. So, I have implemented a slowly diminishing value for good AND bad rep. Over time, everything goes back to 10 unless you work on keeping it up.

Second, bad rep is no longer bad. The concept of evil is ridiculous and even more in a video game. Morality is relative. Low rep means you are a bad ass, and not just bad. It turns from Despised to Infamous. You get the same benefits at the store and ALL NPCs have better reactions. Many will just want to know what is up with this guy.

What gives you bad reactions? Obscureness, unreknownism, being nobody. Stores don't know who you are, so they jack up the prices a bit. NPCs really wonder if you are worth hanging out with if you are unknown, so they have slightly more unfavorable reactions.

What this means is that a lot of what made you bad isn't as bad (killing an innocent drops you 4 points instead of 10) and donating to a church with a rep 9 and lower actually makes you more Infamous (clearly you have ulterior motives).

Secondly, charisma is now implemented much more. It is done in a 3eish way, where every 2 points over 10 is a +1 and under 10 is a -1. It also effects the number of followers you have. People won't follow you if you have 3 charisma...unless, you are famous or notorious. So, followers will stick with you while you have a balance of charisma AND either positive or negative reputation.

The number of followers isn't a simple, block these slots to limit party members. What happens is that they join your party and almost immediately after they see that this isn't working for them, they leave. They use their standard I am leaving your party dialog and should be rerecruitable once you are in a "better place".

Also, happiness with your reputation is also a factor, but in a different way. Good people want to be known as awesome and evil as badasses. Neutral want to not be known at all. So, a neutral character will complain if you are moving too far in one direction or another. Best bet is to either do something on the other side, or chill a bit as your reputation dies down.

However, if you push too far and piss them off, they will leave if your charisma is not high enough. Each point in charisma offsets 1 point in reputation that is on their unhappy side. Meaning, you sexy enough and charming enough, you can make your followers do whatever you want (though they will complain their butts off).

This is my first release and obviously will need some balancing. This will work with any mod that doesn't touch the files it touches, but why play with this mod if you are using another mod to do something else. So, if you install it last, it will overwrite other mods that touch these files. Also, it replies heavily on baldur.bcs script (adding almost 2500 lines of code), which reminds me I should update it for baldur25, but will do that later.

Forgot to mention, assassins will hunt you down similar to flaming fist if your rep is 19+. They do it at the same locations. This will be changed as I'll have them do it in non-city areas. They are on the same 3 day timer. I'll add more as I think about it. They are just carbon copies of the Flaming Fist and still need some work done.

Hopefully a few people will check this out and let me know what you think.

Post edited by wolpak on
KamigoroshilolienJuliusBorisovsmeagolheartCahirkotekoRAM021ThalamondGrammarsaladtypo_tillyArtona

Comments

  • switswit Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 494
    very interesting and well thought concept. Congratulations!

    JuliusBorisov
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,323
    Indeed very interesting and much more appealing than the vanilla reputation system. :)

    Am I correct to assume that this mod works on both the original and enhanced editions of BG/BGII? Or does it also work for IWD:EE?

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Don't assume anything, which is why it is beta. Right now, this is only bg1. I'll need to push the script to work on bg2 and iwd, which I have never modded for. Both should be easy and probably done tomorrow. However, until 1.3 has dropped for iOS, I can't promise anything for bg2, unless someone tests for me.

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Made some updated (plan on some more later today).

    I added a log text that shows how many Max Followers you can have when it changes. It displays in the style of reputation increases and decreases. Sadly, I cannot add it to the record screen. Well, I could, but the record screen does not update static text fields except on game load, and I don't think there is any way to adjust that.

    I also added a little flair to the titles. I have it in 2 step increments.

    0 Infamous
    1 Infamous
    2 Notorious
    3 Notorious
    4 Scandalous
    5 Scandalous
    6 Reprehensible
    7 Reprehensible
    8 Questionable
    9 Questionable
    10 Anonymous
    11 Respectable
    12 Respectable
    13 Honorable
    14 Honorable
    15 Virtuous
    16 Virtuous
    17 Exalted
    18 Exalted
    19 Revered
    20 Revered

    Any suggestions on adjusting that or coming up with better titles, I am all ears. Hopefully people can test this out and see how it flys.

    It should now work on BGEE and BG2EE. If it were to be moved to IWDEE, I'll have to do some adjustments as it makes no sense for all those charisma checks and whatnot with followers since you create your whole party.

    Kamigoroshi
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    One more update for now. I have given 2 options for reputation degrade and charisma impact.

    The first will allow you to choose a slightly faster degrade or slower degrade.

    The second option will let you increase the charisma impact or lessen it.

    I can add more options upon request.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    One last change for today. I have always hated how the reputation system handled Viconia. She joins your party...everyone sees it and ewwww! Rep drop 2 points. Wait, save a baby from falling off a cliff, we'll pretend you aren't harboring a drow. In concept, you shouldn't be able to reach 19 reputation, because she should be a permanent -2 across the board.

    Well, now he presence has more impact. She and Baeloth change the center. Before, over time, you would eventually go back to being anonymous at rep 10. Now, you will move towards questionable and settle in at 8 with her, and with both, down to 6. This def helps a more villainous party, but is definitely more realistic in concept.

    Kamigoroshi
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Is there a reason you got Revered as higher up than Exalted?

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    No, they are pretty much synonyms. Honestly, the top was going to be Goody goody two-shoes, but that would be a little unroleplayingish.

    I can switch them around easy enough if it is a concern.

    Kamigoroshi
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    wolpak said:

    No, they are pretty much synonyms. Honestly, the top was going to be Goody goody two-shoes, but that would be a little unroleplayingish.

    I can switch them around easy enough if it is a concern.

    Call it a bad habbit of playing WoW for many many years. There it was always Friendly -> Honored -> Revered -> Exalted. So i guess when i saw revered after exalted it felt a bit odd :smiley:

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    If there is interested, I guess I could allow users to put in their own titles.

    On my copy, I switched em. Next update Exalted will top the list.

    SionIV
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Just wondering if anyone has played around with this, and if so, what do you think?

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Due to not popular demand, I have updated this again, handling the assassins much better.

    Now, they are no longer Flaming Fist but a set of assassins who hate Goody Goody Two Shoes. If your rep is over 18 and you are wandering in certain non-populated areas, expect to be attacked. They are, for all intents and purposes, identical to the flaming fist, but they talk much less.

    This is for BG1 only right now as I'll need to come up with a list of areas for BG2 and replacement creatures. Of course, if nobody is messing around with this, that will likely take much longer as there won't be a need to.

    Kamigoroshiswit
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,097
    Ok, I probably won't have a time to play it in forseeable future, but the concept is very cool. It reminds me an old Virtue mod which probably won't be updated to work with EE's, which is a shame, really. I like the part of reputation slowly increasing or decreasing to 10 while not fuelling it with your action. It kind of keep up the pace of the game somehow. Not sure if everyone would share my enthusiasm, though. Some want to play this game slowly and without worrying of rep decrease.

    koteko
  • jobbyjobby Member Posts: 181
    I'll give it a go for my next playthrough if you're confident it's fairly stable and will play well with other mods. Dunno when I'll get round to that tho.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Its def stable, and it will play well with anything that doesn't mess with reputation, which is most. Not sure how balanced it is, but I can update quickly and if anything seems off, just let me know.

  • MaalkethMaalketh Member Posts: 4
    I may try installing this in my game, but before I do I had two comments.

    First I love that the very low reputations have benefits like the high reputations. I've always thought that it was weird that if the local mob boss walked into your store you'd refuse to sell to him rather than give him, say, a 90% discount. I do also think that while some people would basically worship the ground under your feet, others - like Ribald Barterman - would stand up and tell the mob boss to leave well enough alone and refuse to sell to him. My personal view is that store keepers would jack up their prices to a point because you are disliked for you evil, but would change their tune once it got out that you're not afraid to beat them down for daring to speak up.

    On the other hand while you may believe that morals are relative, in the Forgotten Realms not only are they objective - they are literal forces. Demons for example are the literal manifestation of chaos and evil combined. There is not ambiguity, at least not as much as you believe; evil can be touched, evil can be fought, and evil can be destroyed.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Right now, the scope of this mod is to put in a very basic framework of a modified reputation system. Is it feasible that shop owners would talk to you and handle things differently based on your reputation? It should be (though I'd have to look more into it). I could even have the global script remove and replace people based on reputation as well. In concept, if being "evil" were easier to manage (like I think I have started to make it), then it would be nice to even have more "evil" designed quests and whatnot.

    I understand your take that morals are set in stone vis a vis good and evil, and in concept I agree, this has to do more with the ideology that they are physical manifestations and that beings that live in the realms have a choice. I am not well versed in the history, nor do I think it matters. If you have a choice between good and evil, as we all do when creating a character, then I think that it is a misnomer to call it good or evil since nobody would inherently choose evil. It goes against human (and demi-human) nature, that given a choice, you would choose evil. Anyone doing "evil" acts does so as they feel justified or righteous (or they are just batspit insane). Nobody ever plays with their mustache and cackles because they find hurting others is fun. I know in concept that they do in the Forgotten Realms, but it is counter intuitive unless you are somehow "touched by evil".

    Either way, I tend to think of it as being revered versus being notorious. Notorious doesn't necessarily mean evil, though obviously evil acts can occur, but are largely justifiable by the one committing those acts. To me, there is a significant difference between evil and the root of evil. If you are born evil, as a demon is, and your self worth is based on torture, that is significantly different than an adventurer who "chooses" an alignment. It has always been poorly handled.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Btw, I plan on another update that will change +18 and -3 encounters to be leveled to make it more manageable for parties of lower (and more challenge for higher levels).

    For BG1, I am thinking of this scenario:
    Level:
    1-3: Level 3 enemies
    4-6: :Level 5 enemies
    7+: Level 7 enemies

  • jobbyjobby Member Posts: 181
    I would suggest however in the context of BG quests it can be very hard to justify the "evil" acts which lower your reputation, they generally are either self serving or downright evil.
    I think an interesting twist could be to increase store prices below neutral until the lowest or second lowest reputation group and replace notorious with "feared" or some such.
    I don't know if it is possible in the EEs but it would be really cool if alignment could also be affected by actions which incur a reputation drop or rise.
    Regardless I will certainly give your mod a run through next time I start up a game, one question would be; does it affect the "hard times on the sword coast" module of one of the many mods I installed? Sorry can't remember which one it's packaged in.

  • ThalamondThalamond Member Posts: 102
    edited July 2015
    I read through the thread and I am impressed by this mod and its concepts. Will try it out and surely stick with it if no serious bugs are found.

    About the encounters I'm interested in knowing how strong these levelled groups will be? I like a challenge, but if every assassin and his mother is a deadly fighter it kinda makes the player's level progression feel like a punishment rather than an advancement. On the other hand, if the assassins are too weak it will just turn into another kobold spam nuisance (i.e. weakling mobs that repeatedly slow down the game without being challenging or adding anything storywise). I'm sure you already thought about these things, but I am simply interested.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,510
    Somehow, I missed this. I don't agree that morality is relative, but I still like the concept here

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Thalamond said:

    I read through the thread and I am impressed by this mod and its concepts. Will try it out and surely stick with it if no serious bugs are found.

    About the encounters I'm interested in knowing how strong these levelled groups will be? I like a challenge, but if every assassin and his mother is a deadly fighter it kinda makes the player's level progression feel like a punishment rather than an advancement. On the other hand, if the assassins are too weak it will just turn into another kobold spam nuisance (i.e. weakling mobs that repeatedly slow down the game without being challenging or adding anything storywise). I'm sure you already thought about these things, but I am simply interested.

    I agree but right now the assassins are pretty much the flaming fists reskinned. That doesn't mean I can't level them or so whatever, but the response was lukewarm and I just didn't work on it further. If I get any feedback, I'll ipdate it.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384

    Somehow, I missed this. I don't agree that morality is relative, but I still like the concept here

    I'd love to argue with you about morality being relative :). Especially cobsidering my relatives.

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,510
    wolpak said:

    Somehow, I missed this. I don't agree that morality is relative, but I still like the concept here

    I'd love to argue with you about morality being relative :). Especially cobsidering my relatives.
    Heh, there is an absolutist conception of special family obligation, referred to as 'agent relative' obligations. Interestingly, the more relativist theories, especially consequentialism in general, tend to get away from agent relative duties.

    Well, this issue is multi dimensional. Of course, you have relativism vs absolutism, but the field changes depending on on other metaethical problems. The first that comes to mind is cognitiveism vs noncognitivism(so many "ism's"! :p ) which debates the nature of factual oughts. There are a few types of statements that we can make, one of which is a declarative statement, that is, a statement of fact. Now, some sentences appear to have the form of a declarative, but are exclamatory (ie expressing an emotion or sentiment), such as "Ben and Jerry's cookies and cream ice cream is the best!" This appears to be an expression of fact about b&j's cookies and cream ice cream, but if anything it's an expression of an emotional reaction to b&j's ice cream. Unlike a declarative, there is no fact of the matter that holds between agents. Your results may differ. Sometimes imperatives have a declarative form, like when mom says, "it's child outside"with a pointed stare that says, "you better put your coat on young man!" Non cognitivists claim that all moral claims with the form, "it is a fact that x"where x is a moral claim, are disguised exclamations, imperatives, or some combination.

    Now, some forms of relativism are cognitive, and others non cognitive. If it is a fact that torture is wrong in the United States for whatever reason--either because it violates an absolute duty to others, and so is as wrong in the U.S.as elsewhere or because (eg) it is accepted as wrong in the U.S.--even if this is because Americans don't like torture!--then, "torture is wrong in the U.S." can be a declarative. This second example illustrates some of the complexities involved in such a discussion.

    My wife is glaring at me. A subtle hint that It's time to go to the gym. Sorry, I generally don't debate;I write philosophy papers :p . We can continue, but there are a number of issue that need to be addressed first, which may not be appropriate here.

    Btw, I think you aren't getting any responses because if timing. People are thinking about the upcoming game. I would test this for you, but I don't pay anymore. I just mod. Yup, she's getting more impatient. Got to go!

  • ThalamondThalamond Member Posts: 102
    Sorry to necro this. I think it is an amazing mod and would like to know if you would think about continuing your work?

    Anax
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