[MOD]Infamy v.5 *beta*
wolpak
Member Posts: 390
I decided to separate a part of my Classes Reborn mod into it's own mod, partly because people may want to play it without my mod, and partly because I'd like feedback on this one aspect in advance.
The biggest problem with reputation isn't necessarily how it is implemented (meaning, gaining or losing rep) but what reputation actually means. The game implies low rep is evil and everyone treats you like crap while high rep is saintly and everyone wants to shine your boots. Funny thing is, life don't work that way. You go into a meat shop in North Jersey, and the police would pay full price while the mafia would get a nice discount. But who has what reputation?
So, this mod meshes together Charisma and a modified approach on reputation. I'll hit each point.
First, reputation is fleeting. If Jon Gotti was alive today and walked into a store, most people wouldn't recognize him. If you want to keep your rep up, you have to work at it. So, I have implemented a slowly diminishing value for good AND bad rep. Over time, everything goes back to 10 unless you work on keeping it up.
Second, bad rep is no longer bad. The concept of evil is ridiculous and even more in a video game. Morality is relative. Low rep means you are a bad ass, and not just bad. It turns from Despised to Infamous. You get the same benefits at the store and ALL NPCs have better reactions. Many will just want to know what is up with this guy.
What gives you bad reactions? Obscureness, unreknownism, being nobody. Stores don't know who you are, so they jack up the prices a bit. NPCs really wonder if you are worth hanging out with if you are unknown, so they have slightly more unfavorable reactions.
What this means is that a lot of what made you bad isn't as bad (killing an innocent drops you 4 points instead of 10) and donating to a church with a rep 9 and lower actually makes you more Infamous (clearly you have ulterior motives).
Secondly, charisma is now implemented much more. It is done in a 3eish way, where every 2 points over 10 is a +1 and under 10 is a -1. It also effects the number of followers you have. People won't follow you if you have 3 charisma...unless, you are famous or notorious. So, followers will stick with you while you have a balance of charisma AND either positive or negative reputation.
The number of followers isn't a simple, block these slots to limit party members. What happens is that they join your party and almost immediately after they see that this isn't working for them, they leave. They use their standard I am leaving your party dialog and should be rerecruitable once you are in a "better place".
Also, happiness with your reputation is also a factor, but in a different way. Good people want to be known as awesome and evil as badasses. Neutral want to not be known at all. So, a neutral character will complain if you are moving too far in one direction or another. Best bet is to either do something on the other side, or chill a bit as your reputation dies down.
However, if you push too far and piss them off, they will leave if your charisma is not high enough. Each point in charisma offsets 1 point in reputation that is on their unhappy side. Meaning, you sexy enough and charming enough, you can make your followers do whatever you want (though they will complain their butts off).
This is my first release and obviously will need some balancing. This will work with any mod that doesn't touch the files it touches, but why play with this mod if you are using another mod to do something else. So, if you install it last, it will overwrite other mods that touch these files. Also, it replies heavily on baldur.bcs script (adding almost 2500 lines of code), which reminds me I should update it for baldur25, but will do that later.
Forgot to mention, assassins will hunt you down similar to flaming fist if your rep is 19+. They do it at the same locations. This will be changed as I'll have them do it in non-city areas. They are on the same 3 day timer. I'll add more as I think about it. They are just carbon copies of the Flaming Fist and still need some work done.
Hopefully a few people will check this out and let me know what you think.
The biggest problem with reputation isn't necessarily how it is implemented (meaning, gaining or losing rep) but what reputation actually means. The game implies low rep is evil and everyone treats you like crap while high rep is saintly and everyone wants to shine your boots. Funny thing is, life don't work that way. You go into a meat shop in North Jersey, and the police would pay full price while the mafia would get a nice discount. But who has what reputation?
So, this mod meshes together Charisma and a modified approach on reputation. I'll hit each point.
First, reputation is fleeting. If Jon Gotti was alive today and walked into a store, most people wouldn't recognize him. If you want to keep your rep up, you have to work at it. So, I have implemented a slowly diminishing value for good AND bad rep. Over time, everything goes back to 10 unless you work on keeping it up.
Second, bad rep is no longer bad. The concept of evil is ridiculous and even more in a video game. Morality is relative. Low rep means you are a bad ass, and not just bad. It turns from Despised to Infamous. You get the same benefits at the store and ALL NPCs have better reactions. Many will just want to know what is up with this guy.
What gives you bad reactions? Obscureness, unreknownism, being nobody. Stores don't know who you are, so they jack up the prices a bit. NPCs really wonder if you are worth hanging out with if you are unknown, so they have slightly more unfavorable reactions.
What this means is that a lot of what made you bad isn't as bad (killing an innocent drops you 4 points instead of 10) and donating to a church with a rep 9 and lower actually makes you more Infamous (clearly you have ulterior motives).
Secondly, charisma is now implemented much more. It is done in a 3eish way, where every 2 points over 10 is a +1 and under 10 is a -1. It also effects the number of followers you have. People won't follow you if you have 3 charisma...unless, you are famous or notorious. So, followers will stick with you while you have a balance of charisma AND either positive or negative reputation.
The number of followers isn't a simple, block these slots to limit party members. What happens is that they join your party and almost immediately after they see that this isn't working for them, they leave. They use their standard I am leaving your party dialog and should be rerecruitable once you are in a "better place".
Also, happiness with your reputation is also a factor, but in a different way. Good people want to be known as awesome and evil as badasses. Neutral want to not be known at all. So, a neutral character will complain if you are moving too far in one direction or another. Best bet is to either do something on the other side, or chill a bit as your reputation dies down.
However, if you push too far and piss them off, they will leave if your charisma is not high enough. Each point in charisma offsets 1 point in reputation that is on their unhappy side. Meaning, you sexy enough and charming enough, you can make your followers do whatever you want (though they will complain their butts off).
This is my first release and obviously will need some balancing. This will work with any mod that doesn't touch the files it touches, but why play with this mod if you are using another mod to do something else. So, if you install it last, it will overwrite other mods that touch these files. Also, it replies heavily on baldur.bcs script (adding almost 2500 lines of code), which reminds me I should update it for baldur25, but will do that later.
Forgot to mention, assassins will hunt you down similar to flaming fist if your rep is 19+. They do it at the same locations. This will be changed as I'll have them do it in non-city areas. They are on the same 3 day timer. I'll add more as I think about it. They are just carbon copies of the Flaming Fist and still need some work done.
Hopefully a few people will check this out and let me know what you think.
Post edited by wolpak on
11
Comments
Am I correct to assume that this mod works on both the original and enhanced editions of BG/BGII? Or does it also work for IWD:EE?
I added a log text that shows how many Max Followers you can have when it changes. It displays in the style of reputation increases and decreases. Sadly, I cannot add it to the record screen. Well, I could, but the record screen does not update static text fields except on game load, and I don't think there is any way to adjust that.
I also added a little flair to the titles. I have it in 2 step increments.
0 Infamous
1 Infamous
2 Notorious
3 Notorious
4 Scandalous
5 Scandalous
6 Reprehensible
7 Reprehensible
8 Questionable
9 Questionable
10 Anonymous
11 Respectable
12 Respectable
13 Honorable
14 Honorable
15 Virtuous
16 Virtuous
17 Exalted
18 Exalted
19 Revered
20 Revered
Any suggestions on adjusting that or coming up with better titles, I am all ears. Hopefully people can test this out and see how it flys.
It should now work on BGEE and BG2EE. If it were to be moved to IWDEE, I'll have to do some adjustments as it makes no sense for all those charisma checks and whatnot with followers since you create your whole party.
The first will allow you to choose a slightly faster degrade or slower degrade.
The second option will let you increase the charisma impact or lessen it.
I can add more options upon request.
Well, now he presence has more impact. She and Baeloth change the center. Before, over time, you would eventually go back to being anonymous at rep 10. Now, you will move towards questionable and settle in at 8 with her, and with both, down to 6. This def helps a more villainous party, but is definitely more realistic in concept.
I can switch them around easy enough if it is a concern.
On my copy, I switched em. Next update Exalted will top the list.
Now, they are no longer Flaming Fist but a set of assassins who hate Goody Goody Two Shoes. If your rep is over 18 and you are wandering in certain non-populated areas, expect to be attacked. They are, for all intents and purposes, identical to the flaming fist, but they talk much less.
This is for BG1 only right now as I'll need to come up with a list of areas for BG2 and replacement creatures. Of course, if nobody is messing around with this, that will likely take much longer as there won't be a need to.
First I love that the very low reputations have benefits like the high reputations. I've always thought that it was weird that if the local mob boss walked into your store you'd refuse to sell to him rather than give him, say, a 90% discount. I do also think that while some people would basically worship the ground under your feet, others - like Ribald Barterman - would stand up and tell the mob boss to leave well enough alone and refuse to sell to him. My personal view is that store keepers would jack up their prices to a point because you are disliked for you evil, but would change their tune once it got out that you're not afraid to beat them down for daring to speak up.
On the other hand while you may believe that morals are relative, in the Forgotten Realms not only are they objective - they are literal forces. Demons for example are the literal manifestation of chaos and evil combined. There is not ambiguity, at least not as much as you believe; evil can be touched, evil can be fought, and evil can be destroyed.
I understand your take that morals are set in stone vis a vis good and evil, and in concept I agree, this has to do more with the ideology that they are physical manifestations and that beings that live in the realms have a choice. I am not well versed in the history, nor do I think it matters. If you have a choice between good and evil, as we all do when creating a character, then I think that it is a misnomer to call it good or evil since nobody would inherently choose evil. It goes against human (and demi-human) nature, that given a choice, you would choose evil. Anyone doing "evil" acts does so as they feel justified or righteous (or they are just batspit insane). Nobody ever plays with their mustache and cackles because they find hurting others is fun. I know in concept that they do in the Forgotten Realms, but it is counter intuitive unless you are somehow "touched by evil".
Either way, I tend to think of it as being revered versus being notorious. Notorious doesn't necessarily mean evil, though obviously evil acts can occur, but are largely justifiable by the one committing those acts. To me, there is a significant difference between evil and the root of evil. If you are born evil, as a demon is, and your self worth is based on torture, that is significantly different than an adventurer who "chooses" an alignment. It has always been poorly handled.
For BG1, I am thinking of this scenario:
Level:
1-3: Level 3 enemies
4-6: :Level 5 enemies
7+: Level 7 enemies
I think an interesting twist could be to increase store prices below neutral until the lowest or second lowest reputation group and replace notorious with "feared" or some such.
I don't know if it is possible in the EEs but it would be really cool if alignment could also be affected by actions which incur a reputation drop or rise.
Regardless I will certainly give your mod a run through next time I start up a game, one question would be; does it affect the "hard times on the sword coast" module of one of the many mods I installed? Sorry can't remember which one it's packaged in.
About the encounters I'm interested in knowing how strong these levelled groups will be? I like a challenge, but if every assassin and his mother is a deadly fighter it kinda makes the player's level progression feel like a punishment rather than an advancement. On the other hand, if the assassins are too weak it will just turn into another kobold spam nuisance (i.e. weakling mobs that repeatedly slow down the game without being challenging or adding anything storywise). I'm sure you already thought about these things, but I am simply interested.
Well, this issue is multi dimensional. Of course, you have relativism vs absolutism, but the field changes depending on on other metaethical problems. The first that comes to mind is cognitiveism vs noncognitivism(so many "ism's"!
Now, some forms of relativism are cognitive, and others non cognitive. If it is a fact that torture is wrong in the United States for whatever reason--either because it violates an absolute duty to others, and so is as wrong in the U.S.as elsewhere or because (eg) it is accepted as wrong in the U.S.--even if this is because Americans don't like torture!--then, "torture is wrong in the U.S." can be a declarative. This second example illustrates some of the complexities involved in such a discussion.
My wife is glaring at me. A subtle hint that It's time to go to the gym. Sorry, I generally don't debate;I write philosophy papers
Btw, I think you aren't getting any responses because if timing. People are thinking about the upcoming game. I would test this for you, but I don't pay anymore. I just mod. Yup, she's getting more impatient. Got to go!
Came back around to BG and I have been thinking about it. I never got much feedback on this mod, what did you think of it?
The reputation system in Infinity Engine games has been, in short, very simple. Evil's numbers are the opposite of good's numbers and neutral's numbers are between these extremes. You initial example of prices for police officers and mafiosos seems more a matter of power. Assumedly, merchants charge policemen full price because they can and mafiosos less because of mafia persuasion: People generally like to "live long and prosper," to quote Spock. Giving the police officers a discount doesn't notably contribute to that in the short term while helping the mafia seemingly does.
As for this infamy mod, I can't fairly comment on it since I've not used it and I've been OK with maxing reputation and keeping it (nearly) maxed throughout my games for the sake of better shop prices. Seemingly, your mod adds bonuses for low reputation. How does it handle guards infinitely spawning for low rep?
If you look below this, I decided to modify my mod and add in extra functionality. It handles good versus evil and lawful versus chaotic differently. Clearly it can just be within the bounds of what the game will let me do, but I feel it is something.
Regarding the infinitely spawning guards (and assassins) I’ll have it be based on a bounty. Oublek will accept a bribe if you are evil or payment if you are good, to keep these reoccurring encounters at bay for a week or so.