@bigdogchris In IWD2 they just used fighters without armour for the monk animations so I could never help thinking (when I tried a monk) that the character just looked like some flailing oaf from the streets of Amn - What I was getting at was that lack of budget/inclination/resources to provide a more appropriate animation did not stop them from doing it anyway.
For me, IWD2 monks looked too ridiculous when in use, so I didn't stick with one.
That's a shame, I still don't understand why you for example can't play an elven paladin in 2nd Edition
I remember that some Campaign Settings (i.e. Dragonlance / Krynn) allowed playing an elven paladin with 2nd edition rules. The old SSI Krynn series of games had it implemented. Most of the rules are lore inspired anyways (or at least what the authors thought would fit a certain setting). And some other campaign settings (i.e. Dark Sun) didn't know Paladins at all.
I always rather enjoyed the class restrictions. I'll admit some of them made no sense (specifically no Bards nor Druids for Elves, as well as their very limited Spec Mage selection), but for the most part they added flavour and helped balance out the classes. The more bonuses a race had, the less classes they could choose from. Dwarves have godlike saving throws, but can only be Fighters, Clerics and Thieves. Meanwhile, Half-Elves get negligible racial bonuses, but can be nearly any class, including Cleric/Ranger. Humans receive NO racial bonus (unless you count the insane brokenness that is dualclassing), but are the only race who can be every class, including Paladins and Monks.
And what's a Gnome without the ability to be a MC'd Illusionist?
Rules aside, that would be interesting. For an Elf to spend his entire life as a Paladin would be something of legend. Centuries of service to a chosen god, and to the extermination of evil? If an Elf could choose such a rigid path in life, I imagine bards would sing about him for ages to come.
Okay, you are right here, probably. But what about elven bard? Bladesingers are exist, but in 2ed elf cannot play as bard.
Are you applying modern rules/knowledge to that of the past, or are you saying that there are Elven Bladesingers in AD&D 2.0?
There *are*. Complete Book of Elves introduced the Bladesinger Kit.
@bigdogchris I mean to say that the sorcerer having a racial restriction makes no sense. All the races have the ability to use magic in one way or another, and the basis of the sorcerer is something innate, something someone is born with (if i am understanding it correctly). Since that is the case, I figure that any race should be able to be a sorcerer.
@bigdogchris I mean to say that the sorcerer having a racial restriction makes no sense. All the races have the ability to use magic in one way or another, and the basis of the sorcerer is something innate, something someone is born with (if i am understanding it correctly). Since that is the case, I figure that any race should be able to be a sorcerer.
Should probably be the case. Then again, Sorcerers are 3E, so they don't really fit with BG's 2E rules anyway. Plus, dwarves can't be mages, so you can argue they also won't have any sorcerers as their race simply lacks some innate prerequisite for arcane magic of any kind (same for half-orcs, I guess).
Some of the class restrictions have interesting lore/background/flavor surrounding them in 2nd ed. If you check out the Monstrous Manual for 2nd Ed., I believe it states that dwarves, for example, possess a nonmagical nature, which involves both a hardiness to magic which translates into saving throws against wands, rods, staves, and spells, as well as a sort of 'clumsiness' when it comes to magic, where they have a 20% chance to fail when trying to use magical items like potions, jewels, amulets, rings, wands, and so on. Apparently they can even fail to properly use the bag of holding,'and if you think of all these things, which I think are interesting, it would make a dwarven fighter a great form of comic relief to the group, in addition to what people already love about them lol.
On the other hand, some Deurgar apparently have invisibility and enlarge spells, and the Derro dwarves can have a ton of mage spells, but neither seem to have the spell resistances or ineptitudes.
Similarly, for the most common elves, being high elves, clerics do exist, but are extremely rare to see, only in encampments, where you'll find one high level and up to four lower level clerics. But their war bands and the majority of their encampments consist of fighters, which are organized into groups headed by higher level warriors, and in a large enough band, there are low level wizards, and then the chain of command leads to high level fighters, fighter/mages, and fighter/mage/thieves (being the most elite, with the exception of one high level mage). Also, these groups usually don't focus much on bows (only 25% of the bands will even have bows, and not necessarily have them equipped), whereas wood elves, or sylvan elves, are largely focused on bows, having usually 50% of their war bands equipped with bows. High elves, by contrast, can be expected to be carrying swords 50% of the time. They also all seem to have near invisibility while in wooded areas, so they are all effectively decent level theives if in the woods, as far as stealth is concerned, and are basically portrayed as militant guerillas and even isolationists on some level.
By contrast, the drow elves are basically fewer in numbers, but always higher level on average, and with better items (if in the underdark). They also don't typically have fighter/mage/thieves in their groups, but rather fighter/clerics (which are at the top of the chain of command).
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Now don't get me wrong, I don't think the game should strictly follow these guidelines, but I think it's pretty interesting, and it makes a lot of sense why the class restrictions are there, considering you play as the common races of hill/mountain dwarf and high elf. Drizzt is an atypical chaotic good drow ranger, while Viconia is the stereotypical evil female drow cleric. No dwarf in the game seems to have bad luck with magic. There's a deurgar mage right at the beginning of BG2. No elf non-thief has stealth in the woods. It is what it is.
Also, one point I wanted to make about 3rd ed. is that in NWN, for example, race basically turned into a purely aesthetic and almost meaningless thing without class restrictions, and I think this took a lot away. The dwarf basically became the race you want for more constitution, the half-orc what you want for more strength, the elf what you want for more dexterity, and the human what you want for an extra feat. Removing class restrictions doesn't add complexity to the game imo. In 2nd ed, races were interesting because they were tied to iconic class combinations. If I wanted a fighter/cleric multiclass, I would likely go dwarf. If I wanted a fighter/thief or fighter/mage thief, I would likely go elf. The gnome illusionist/cleric was interesting because no other race could get a specialist mage class in a multiclass. In 1st edition, I think the elf was a race and class, and basically was the equivalent to a fighter/mage, the dwarf a fighter with lots of resistances, and they had level caps that don't exist in 2nd ed. I don't know what to think, just stating some tidbits that are interesting to me.
Rules aside, that would be interesting. For an Elf to spend his entire life as a Paladin would be something of legend. Centuries of service to a chosen god, and to the extermination of evil? If an Elf could choose such a rigid path in life, I imagine bards would sing about him for ages to come.
Okay, you are right here, probably. But what about elven bard? Bladesingers are exist, but in 2ed elf cannot play as bard.
Are you applying modern rules/knowledge to that of the past, or are you saying that there are Elven Bladesingers in AD&D 2.0?
There *are*. Complete Book of Elves introduced the Bladesinger Kit.
In which case the issue would have to be asked to programmers of the original Baldur's Gate game.
Well if dwarves are, in fact, innately non magical... Then that's fine... Logically they would cancel out any sorcerer gene. But is the same true of halflings and half orcs? I KNOW it's not true of gnomes. If a class is more innate than anything else, it would seem logical that most if not all races would be allowed to be that class.
That being said, it would be awesome if beamdog introduced a character with a class that was truly at odds with their race, and have some dialog and some quest that further delved deeper into it. Aerie is an example, but her class and race doesn't really seem all that controversial. I didn't even notice her class and race combo was illegal until someone pointed it out to me TBH
A bit of trivia on the subject of dwarves and magic:
When I was writing lore material for a NWN2 PW many years ago, I came across an ancient, extinct race of shield dwarves who had lived under Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan in a region named Xothaerin. Among them was a clan located under the Cloud Peaks (?) that was atypically scholarly. They also were heavily into fire magics, IIRC. Unless I'm blurring them in memory with a clan that was based under the Eyes of Kossuth in what later became southern Amn. Anyway, I would suppose that enchantments used by dwarves in their smithing of magical weapons are divine versus arcane. But I always wondered whether those scholarly dwarves would have developed an interest in arcane magic. They were long gone by 1472 DR in any event.
@Lemernis Azer are dwarves native to the Elemental Plane of Fire. I also like the Fundamentals from 1e. a bat-like creature composed of one of the four elements- native to the elemental planes, but...
Wish they did open up the classes for all the races like in 3rd edition (which is personally my favourite edition). Too many class restrictions aren't a good thing, as it restricts creativity and breeds repetitiveness.
I hear you, and respect that point of view. But the end of the day it's a game, to be enjoyed as the player sees fit (assuming you're not playing individually, not with others online MP in gaming group). And PnP D&D allows for 'house rules'.
Ofcourse all of us tried it But i prefered another ways to change character, like setting custom race\model to him. Deckard Cain in BG2 - sure!
I feel like as long as I don't change a character's stats that it doesn't make me feel like a cheater to change their class. If I were to increase Viconio's con and str to 16 that would make me feel guilty. If I wanted to make her a Cleric/Mage without changing a stat then that wouldn't bother me.
@Deserk The Pathfinder system (which is based on and expands 3e) takes things even further. Not only can any race be any class, but each race has several classes that they can specialize in to have abilies only available to that race/class combination. You have to trade in one of the classes standard abilities to take a racial one (for balancing reasons) but it still takes the idea of customization to another level.
I think the Pathfinder Ultimate Race Guide has the most examples. Unfortunately I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Still, if they *will* do subraces in DLC, most probably, that Duergars will be able to take wizard classes But i am not sure about subrace DLC. Sounds too sweet.
Comments
Say, can we get a wearable version of that armor? That would be sweet!
For me, IWD2 monks looked too ridiculous when in use, so I didn't stick with one.
And some other campaign settings (i.e. Dark Sun) didn't know Paladins at all.
And what's a Gnome without the ability to be a MC'd Illusionist?
On the other hand, some Deurgar apparently have invisibility and enlarge spells, and the Derro dwarves can have a ton of mage spells, but neither seem to have the spell resistances or ineptitudes.
Similarly, for the most common elves, being high elves, clerics do exist, but are extremely rare to see, only in encampments, where you'll find one high level and up to four lower level clerics. But their war bands and the majority of their encampments consist of fighters, which are organized into groups headed by higher level warriors, and in a large enough band, there are low level wizards, and then the chain of command leads to high level fighters, fighter/mages, and fighter/mage/thieves (being the most elite, with the exception of one high level mage). Also, these groups usually don't focus much on bows (only 25% of the bands will even have bows, and not necessarily have them equipped), whereas wood elves, or sylvan elves, are largely focused on bows, having usually 50% of their war bands equipped with bows. High elves, by contrast, can be expected to be carrying swords 50% of the time. They also all seem to have near invisibility while in wooded areas, so they are all effectively decent level theives if in the woods, as far as stealth is concerned, and are basically portrayed as militant guerillas and even isolationists on some level.
By contrast, the drow elves are basically fewer in numbers, but always higher level on average, and with better items (if in the underdark). They also don't typically have fighter/mage/thieves in their groups, but rather fighter/clerics (which are at the top of the chain of command).
-----------------------
Now don't get me wrong, I don't think the game should strictly follow these guidelines, but I think it's pretty interesting, and it makes a lot of sense why the class restrictions are there, considering you play as the common races of hill/mountain dwarf and high elf. Drizzt is an atypical chaotic good drow ranger, while Viconia is the stereotypical evil female drow cleric. No dwarf in the game seems to have bad luck with magic. There's a deurgar mage right at the beginning of BG2. No elf non-thief has stealth in the woods. It is what it is.
Also, one point I wanted to make about 3rd ed. is that in NWN, for example, race basically turned into a purely aesthetic and almost meaningless thing without class restrictions, and I think this took a lot away. The dwarf basically became the race you want for more constitution, the half-orc what you want for more strength, the elf what you want for more dexterity, and the human what you want for an extra feat. Removing class restrictions doesn't add complexity to the game imo. In 2nd ed, races were interesting because they were tied to iconic class combinations. If I wanted a fighter/cleric multiclass, I would likely go dwarf. If I wanted a fighter/thief or fighter/mage thief, I would likely go elf. The gnome illusionist/cleric was interesting because no other race could get a specialist mage class in a multiclass. In 1st edition, I think the elf was a race and class, and basically was the equivalent to a fighter/mage, the dwarf a fighter with lots of resistances, and they had level caps that don't exist in 2nd ed. I don't know what to think, just stating some tidbits that are interesting to me.
That being said, it would be awesome if beamdog introduced a character with a class that was truly at odds with their race, and have some dialog and some quest that further delved deeper into it. Aerie is an example, but her class and race doesn't really seem all that controversial. I didn't even notice her class and race combo was illegal until someone pointed it out to me TBH
When I was writing lore material for a NWN2 PW many years ago, I came across an ancient, extinct race of shield dwarves who had lived under Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan in a region named Xothaerin. Among them was a clan located under the Cloud Peaks (?) that was atypically scholarly. They also were heavily into fire magics, IIRC. Unless I'm blurring them in memory with a clan that was based under the Eyes of Kossuth in what later became southern Amn. Anyway, I would suppose that enchantments used by dwarves in their smithing of magical weapons are divine versus arcane. But I always wondered whether those scholarly dwarves would have developed an interest in arcane magic. They were long gone by 1472 DR in any event.
I think the Pathfinder Ultimate Race Guide has the most examples. Unfortunately I can't think of any off the top of my head.
But i am not sure about subrace DLC. Sounds too sweet.