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Some more detailed questions about how thief skills work

PinkadinPinkadin Member Posts: 9
edited February 2015 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I find myself not really understanding how to use all the thief skills in BG1:EE. I have never really used thieves before, other than rudimentary trap detection in the mines, so I'm not sure how it works, technically speaking. But this time I'm doing an all—evil playthrough, so I guess it's time I learned how to hide and steal. Strangely, none of the usual help websites seem to say anything about this. They just all assume everyone knows what to do.

EDIT: Well, after some more searching I found http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/bgguide.htm which explains every thieving concept and how to use it. My remaining questions are below.

Backstab: Hide, then strike at the enemy while hidden, get x2 damage. In the Goldbox games, you had to fix the enemy with a strike from the front (miss or hit OK) and then strike with a thief directly opposite. But how does BG1:EE define "behind"? As far as I know facing isn't implemented in this game.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16267/please-explain-backstabbing

Move Silently: What's the relationship between this and the Hide skill? How do they work together? Ah, found this one answered at http://forum.bioware.com/topic/357939-thesis-hide-in-shadows/ and http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/34394/what-does-move-silently-hide-in-shadows-really-do
"There is actually only one skill which the game engine uses in calculating the success of a stealth attempt, which is the single figure called "Stealth" for a Ranger but is the average of the two figures called "Hide In Shadows" and "Move Silently" for a Thief."

I want to go into houses and rob them, but as soon as I unlock anything or grab anything I'm not stealthed any more and I get caught every time. Is stealth the same as invisibility? What's the difference? To keep stealth, does it matter if you STAY in shadows, or do you just need to START in shadows?

What does "LOS" mean, exactly? How do you know if you're in enemy LOS? I'm at Tersus' tent in the Bandit Camp, and no matter if he has his back turned, or not, he immediately detects me as soon as I touch the chest. Unlocking it is OK, but clicking on its inventory counts as a theft attempt.

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited February 2015
    LOS = Line of Sight. Unless they are blinded an enemies (or other characters) line of sight is going to be the same as yours.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited February 2015
    Backstab: To backstab an enemy you simply need to be attacking their back. There is a facing mechanism in the game and if your enemy is facing 6:00 your thief needs to strike at approximately their 12:00. In my experience there is a roughly 90 degree window in which you can backstab. So if your enemy is facing 0 degrees then you could backstab at about their 120-210 degrees.

    Stealing from containers: Let me explain how this works and see if it answers your questions. Opening certain containers is considered stealing. For this discussion we will call these containers "private containers". Not all containers are private. Even if one container in an area is private that doesn't necessarily mean that all the containers in that area are private. The only way to figure out if a container is private or not is to try to steal from it. Removing traps from and picking the lock of a private container does not ever count as a thieving attempt. Opening a private container to view its inventory (even if you take nothing) is considered stealing. To get caught stealing from a private container there are some requirements. First, an NPC who is scripted to notice stealing must be in the area and be able to see the private container you have stolen from ("LOS" means "line of sight" and this is where that comes in). Note that to get caught stealing the NPC never actually has to see your character, only the violated private container, and thus stealth is useless in preventing getting caught. There are several ways to avoid getting caught stealing. First, if you leave the area that has the violated private container before you are noticed stealing from it then you have escaped getting caught and you will never be noticed (even if you later return to that area). Second, if you wait for all the NPCs to move out of the line of sight of the private container you can steal from it and they will not notice (Keep in mind that if they move so that they can see the violated private container, even if you left it long ago, you will still get noticed). Third, a charmed NPC will never notice you stealing so if you charm the NPCs in the area then it is easy to steal (note that if the charm wears off the NPCs will be able to notice you stealing again (also note that in BG2 charming NPCs will make them hostile once the charm wears off so you may want to avoid this method in BG2)). In most cases, when you steal from a private container and get caught guards are summoned to confront you. There is a way to avoid this, however. If you get caught stealing and the guards are summoned you have about 3 seconds to leave the area before they arrive. If you leave before the guards arrive then they never will arrive (even if you later return to that area).

    Stealing from the bandit camp is a special case as you would hardly expect the outlaw bandits to summon the Flaming Fist now, would you. Intead they just get mad and attack you. Other than that the mechanism works the same.

    Edit: Wow! Only 1 ninja. Kinda surprising considering the length of time it took to type all that. I even ninja'd someone! How about that!
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited February 2015
    You need to be behind the enemy, to perform a backstab. Game is very precise in this that you can't backstab someone if you are not considered 'behind' it. The face of the enemy must be facing where you are not, and you should not be directly at his left or right flank. You know, just be behind the target! Humanoid enemies are easy to backstab. Enemy thieves do not play by this rule. Their attacks from invisibility will always be considered a backstab by the engine, as they don't have the ai to get behind player characters.

    Stealth/hide in shadows is akin to invisibility most of the time. True sight and other diviniation spells will reveal hidden characters. Any monster that can see invisible will see hidden character as well. Only difference is in non-detection spell, a hidden character can not be revealed by detect invisibility spells if he has non-detection, from the cloak or spell. Invisibility will always be revealed even with non-detection, and only spell immunity:diviniation protects the invisibility from diviniation magic.

    Getting items from containers near neutral npcs are always tricky. You need to charm them or knock them uncouncious with fists, or a color spray before. Or, as soon as you pick the items gulp an invisibility potion or go stealth immediately. (Don't start with stealthed as game forces a cool down for hide skill now.) This will protect you from retribution from the summoned guards, even if it fails to avoid detection.
  • PinkadinPinkadin Member Posts: 9
    edited February 2015
    elminster said:

    LOS = Line of Sight. Unless they are blinded an enemies (or other characters) line of sight is going to be the same as yours.

    Ok...well...what's my line of sight, then? How far does it extend? To which angles? What blocks LOS? How can I tell if something is in my LOS, and how can I tell if I am in a mob's LOS? What are the consequences of being in someone's LOS?

    Tersus has his back turned to me, and has his nose stuffed in the wall - and yet he still detects me trying to steal from the chest. What sort of LOS is being used here?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    edited February 2015
    Your line of sight is what your players reveal to you about their surroundings. It is independent of the direction you are facing. In the example screenshot below Imoen's line of sight is circled in red. Notice that she can see everything around her even if she is not facing that way. Also notice that that one wall is blocking her line of sight and she can not see the guy in the shaded area (circled in blue). That woman there has a line of sight that functions the same way as Imoen's and she would catch Imoen if I were to have her steal from the chest. If the woman were to move into the shaded area with the guy then she would not have the chest in her line of sight and I would not get caught if Imoen were to open it.

    image
  • PinkadinPinkadin Member Posts: 9
    edited February 2015
    Tersus is facing the door, and yet he still detects me when I open the box.

    image

    Also, I can put him in the "blocked LOS" area behind the tent post, and he STILL detects me. I move to that spot, and I can see that my position near the chest is not in LOS from there.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    You can backstab Tersus perfectly in this last screenshot, however. His back is turned to you and he is sitting like a duck. Just don't attack from the very near right or left of him. Go for the back!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited February 2015
    lunar said:

    Go for the back!

    or alternative go for the eyes! :)

    image
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