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Neverwinter Nights, ugly as sin.

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  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited March 2015
    FFX was out before Neverwinter Nights, and FFX-2 came out shortly after that, so calling Neverwinter's graphics ugly is perfectly acceptable. At the very least, you could argue that had the aesthetic been different (as I mentioned a few posts ago -some- sprites did look good, so there -was- some potential there) then the game could have aged better.
    The Temple of Elemental Evil PC game is an excellent example of how NwN's graphics could have ended up. The game was definitely no Final Fantasy graphics-wise, but the aesthetics were excellent, and it was released only a year after NwN. It's a damn shame the graphics of that game couldn't have been combined with NwN's gameplay engine.

    I'm pretty sure no one is arguing that NwN didn't have other strengths. Whether or not NwN is a good game is not the issue.

    SionIV
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    SionIV said:

    CaeDares said:

    So what do you guys think of Minecraft?

    Minecraft already kind of proved that a game doesn't have to look good to be good.
    And Planescape Torment proved that you can have shit gameplay, horrible combat and bad graphics. But Planescape Torment had an amazing story, atmosphere and environment.

    Neverwinter Nights doesn't have good gameplay, doesn't have a nice story. The good points doesn't outweigh the bad ones. And when it came out, the 3D graphics was THE selling point of that game.
    So this is all highly subjective. I personally don't think that the game play was bad. I wasn't a fan of the rules set (3E) but considering what the engine did, it was lightyears above 90% of other games from the time, or even today. To understand the vast complexity of the rules in comparison to something like Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty (just to name some big titles, but not necessarily shooter types), or even Dark Souls, NWN does A FRIGGIN LOT in the background.

    I admit that the original campaign was rather uninspired, but SoA and Hoards were both phenomenal in my mind. Plus, the main point of the game wasn't to provide an award winning single player campaign, it was to provide a tool set and then a campaign that showcases that tool set. And considering the insane number of modded games that were community created, quite a few of which were amazing in themselves, I'd say it did it's job quite well.

    But at the end of the day, if you didn't like the game, that is a perfectly valid view point. I for one am not trying to dissuade you of that view, merely share my view which would appear to be different. Nuff said.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Sorry for the double post, but...

    @Nuin - do any of the three games you mentioned have a robust mod building tool that is approachable to a novice with little or no coding ability?

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686

    Sorry for the double post, but...

    @Nuin - do any of the three games you mentioned have a robust mod building tool that is approachable to a novice with little or no coding ability?

    Morrowind?

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @SionIV - No... @Nuin mentioned FFX, FFX2 and ToEE. I've honestly not ever played any of the Final Fantasy games, so I don't honestly know if they have a modding tool attached. I do know that ToEE IS modable to a degree, but no where near as much as NWN. And absolutely not approachable to a non-coder.

    While it's true that I am a programmer, but have no background what so ever in C++, yet despite that I was able to create several coherent adventures in NWN without writing more than a few lines of code (mainly conversation nodes). I can't say that they would win any awards or anything, quite the contrary. But I wouldn't even begin to attempt something like that in the ToEE engine.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686

    @SionIV - No... @Nuin mentioned FFX, FFX2 and ToEE. I've honestly not ever played any of the Final Fantasy games, so I don't honestly know if they have a modding tool attached. I do know that ToEE IS modable to a degree, but no where near as much as NWN. And absolutely not approachable to a non-coder.

    While it's true that I am a programmer, but have no background what so ever in C++, yet despite that I was able to create several coherent adventures in NWN without writing more than a few lines of code (mainly conversation nodes). I can't say that they would win any awards or anything, quite the contrary. But I wouldn't even begin to attempt something like that in the ToEE engine.

    I mentioned Morrowind because it came out at the same time as NwN and did pretty much everything better except the level up system.

    Final Fantasy X had a better story, gameplay and graphics than NwN. It's on the console so won't be any modding tools.

    ToEE is what NwN should have been. Beautiful isometric game with incredible gameplay and combat. ToEE did have a shitty story and it's own flaws though.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    You keep on avoiding the question. NWN Looked the way it did because of the modability. Sans that none of the rest are comparisons.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited March 2015

    You keep on avoiding the question. NWN Looked the way it did because of the modability. Sans that none of the rest are comparisons.

    NwNs graphic has nothing to do with its modability, where do you get this from?

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited March 2015

    Sorry for the double post, but...

    @Nuin - do any of the three games you mentioned have a robust mod building tool that is approachable to a novice with little or no coding ability?

    Does it matter? We are talking about the game's bad aesthetic and, as a result, terrible graphics.
    If what you're trying to say is that aesthetic is intrinsically linked to the game engine then no, that's not how it works. Games look the way they do because the devs *decided* they should look like the way they do. They do not have absolute control but they're not exactly powerless either.
    If what you're trying to say is that maybe they sacrificed graphics for MOD-ability, then I truly believe no. Because there -are- several notable and fairly intricate character/creature/object sprites in (the original) NwN, which tells us that there was potential there and that some effort did go into the making of the game sprites (including the "ugly" ones).

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Um, please re-read ALL My posts.

  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited March 2015
    I did. Did you bother to read mine and everyone else's posts? We have been saying since page one that the issue has more to do with the game's aesthetic.
    You keep defending the game's aesthetic because of mod-ability. And as people have pointed out (repeatedly), it doesn't work that way. Since you're not actually being specific with what you mean (essentially saying "just because" atm) I pointed out how aesthetic is not intrinsically linked to the game engine (there's no reason why a game cannot be as moddable as NwN and have a different, more visually pleasing aesthetic) and how sacrificing aesthetic for modability doesn't make sense considering the effort put into creating the game's sprites.
    Are you sure we're even talking about the same thing? You know there's a reason we're using the word "aesthetic" instead of just saying "graphics". The word that comes closest to being a synonym would be "style" and someone summarized NwN's graphics style quite well when he compared the sprites to "lego blocks". It's a shame because some hairstyles and body shapes, among other things, were definitely not "lego blocks"-y in style and I pointed out earlier how this proves that there was potential for a different, more visually appealing aesthetic.
    The only other thing that seems to make sense is if you are implying that modders are supposed to add their own models to the game, to rework the game's aesthetic from the ground up and replace everything that doesn't fit.
    IMO, that's called game development. Not modding.

    If we're not even talking about the same thing then why are we quoting each other.

    Post edited by Nuin on
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,417
    I think character faces and bodies could be better, but the objects and weapons within the game world look great.

    Well, subjectively look great. I like them.

    Just no the character models.

    Actually, I do like the Pixie familiar. She had a good model but also was tiny.

    Anyway, NWN is super. . .not great looking but thanks to the PRC mod, I can play as any 3.0/3.5 class ever existing ever! While I love NWN2, Baldur's Gate, and Dragon Age: Origins, none of them have the class customization of NWN (With the PRC mod).

    Since I'm absolutely obsessed with character creation, I actually spend a lot of time not playing the game but just making characters XD

    I said I'd do a NWN expansion playthrough since I only did the OC, but I think I'll probably do it after Dragon Age: Inquisition.

    I like Neverwinter Nights more than Inquisition but my significant other wanted me to finish it with her >_> She's at the last boss waiting for me to catch up to do it at the same time.

    So, I guess TL;DR because I ranted about nothing a lot just then, I think NWN's character models look like crap but the rest of the game looks great.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,417

    @Vallmyr - try out Dark souls. I think you will like what you see.

    I actually have been listening to the Dark Souls soundtrack all day XD

    I bought it but haven't played it yet @[email protected]

    Installed the PC fan-patch to fix the issues. I need to buy a controller though because figuring out the Keyboard/Mouse controls sucks since they are mis-labeled and still have the controller button icons >_>

    Bad port is bad.

    Once I get a controller though I'm definitely going to try it!

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Vallmyr said:

    @Vallmyr - try out Dark souls. I think you will like what you see.

    I actually have been listening to the Dark Souls soundtrack all day XD

    I bought it but haven't played it yet @[email protected]

    Installed the PC fan-patch to fix the issues. I need to buy a controller though because figuring out the Keyboard/Mouse controls sucks since they are mis-labeled and still have the controller button icons >_>

    Bad port is bad.

    Once I get a controller though I'm definitely going to try it!
    Dark Souls on the PC with a controller is 2x times better than on the console, it's well worth the trouble.

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    I think we're all jumping around and with some conflating as well.

    graphics =/= art style or aesthetics
    Minecraft has poor graphics but a neat style. (cubes!)
    Final Fantasy 7 has poor graphics and a poor style. (deformed lego with clipping ._.)

    NwN has lots of pros to it, but it also doesn't have the prettiest art style? Few of the first 3D games of that generation had pretty aesthetic: it was an 'in' thing to just have 3D and a floating camera! Truth is, I never played NwN much because it wasn't party-based. If it was party-based, I would still be playing it no matter the art.

    /Tilly out! n.n

    VallmyrNonnahswriter
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,417

    I think we're all jumping around and with some conflating as well.

    graphics =/= art style or aesthetics
    Minecraft has poor graphics but a neat style. (cubes!)
    Final Fantasy 7 has poor graphics and a poor style. (deformed lego with clipping ._.)

    NwN has lots of pros to it, but it also doesn't have the prettiest art style? Few of the first 3D games of that generation had pretty aesthetic: it was an 'in' thing to just have 3D and a floating camera! Truth is, I never played NwN much because it wasn't party-based. If it was party-based, I would still be playing it no matter the art.

    /Tilly out! n.n

    The lack of a party really hurts NWN for me. I love part-based RPGs. Closest thing I could get to a party I think with the PRC mod they have the leadership feat. So you make an npc for leadership then take 2 companions in Hordes of the Underdark (which again, I have yet to play @[email protected]) and you kind of have a 4 man party!

    ALSO YOU'RE SO FREAKING ADORABLE BLARGH.

    typo_tilly
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Nuin - with respect, the thread is about how NWN aesthetic was displeasing. You've made that clear that you are only concerned with how ugly it is. And any arguments that don't directly address the aesthetic value of the game gets rejected by you as not on topic.

    I have attempted to explain WHY it is ugly for the simple reason that without understanding WHY things happen, it is very easy to complain. But once you understand WHY something is what it is, it is often times easier to accept that which you may not like.

    But I now suspect that the reason you keep in not seeing my argument is that you don't WANT to understand it, merely complain about it.

    In a nutshell, and to directly address your own post, the game could not have looked like ToEE, nor FFX. It was not possible. The technology to make NWN as it was intended AND make it as pretty as ToEE had not been invented yet. If you'd like to explore WHY it didn't exist, I'd be happy to explain further. But to keep on topic, it was NOT POSSIBLE pure and simple.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    I think my biggest disappointment with NwN was that they didn't make it 2D like Baldur's Gate.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Some people always wish things would never change. Thankfully, they don't tend to get their way.

    the_spyder
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 447
    edited March 2015
    I think it's pretty obvious by this point who wasn't bothering to read the other's posts.
    "You've made that clear that you are only concerned with how ugly it is." Really?
    Don't bother saying "with respect". Let the evidence speak for itself.

    And wow, you must have actually worked on the games themselves to know with absolute certainty what was and was not absolutely possible at the time. Good to know that you finally made up your mind, considering how a few posts ago you also claimed you were not really sure.

    I would have genuinely taken offense if it were not for the fact that you are now just parroting what I was saying in my previous posts, which makes it clear you never even bothered to read them properly.
    "...the thread is about how NWN aesthetic was displeasing."
    Uh-huh.

    Serves me right for bothering to reply.

    Post edited by Nuin on
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