For me personally, while I appreciate what Tolkien did for the genre as a whole, I have a special place in my heart for The Lord of the Rings. I can quote lines from just about any book or section you care to mention. His characters touched me. The depth and breadth of his story telling blew me away when I was young. I've read and re-read his books more than any other series in my life time (except one). With out a doubt, it is his writing that makes me a Tolkienite.
I am grieved to hear about Pratchett; wasn't aware that he had passed on until I read it here. He had been in failing health though, from what I heard. His work is hard to categorize; it's set in the right milieu for this discussion, but has a strong comedic/satiric flavor to it, rather than epic drama.
I am totally amazed no one has brought up Glen Cook's "Black Company" series, or his Garret, P.I. novels. Many consider the Black Company to be a seminal work in the evolution of heroic fantasy. How about Steven Brust's "Jhereg" series? Older authors that qualify might include L. Sprague de Camp, Fritz Lieber (someone mentioned his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books ... please note that "Fafhrd" is the password to enter the Thieve's Guild in BG1), Lord Dunsenay and R. E. Howard. Let us not forget that Tolkein wrote other works than LOTR (Hobbit, The Silmarillion), and was also a well respected professor of old English literature. His own writings had to be affected by his study of such opuses. Zelzazny did some stand-alone works in addition to the Amber series; my favorite was "Lord of Light".
I had heard great things about The Wheel of time. My boss raved about it and I kept on reading reviews after reviews saying it was all that... Then I picked up book one.
I read through books 1-6 and it became increasingly harder and harder to get through. I get the whole "Farm boy who is actually this Uber-powerful guy and is set to save/destroy the world". I just couldn't stomach quite a lot of the story threads or the obvious tropes that got stolen from somewhere else. I am not saying that it was a bad series, it just wasn't my thing.
Which is funny because I LOVE Terry Pratchett and he steals EVERYTHING from somewhere else. But I love his sense of humor and his take on things.
The more I think of it though, I do think that Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos stories should be part of the list. Also, The Chronicles of Narnia and Alice's Adventures (wonderland and the looking glass).
@the_spyder , Jordan's Wheel of Time is all about the Aes Sedai, and the Taoist yin-yang duality reimagined by him into Saidar and Saidin.
Despite Rand al Thor being, on the surface, the male hero of the series and the classic "Hero" as defined by Joseph Campbell, the entire epic is all about the women. The *true* heroes, or I should say, "heroines", of the series are Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene. The stories of the males are almost subplots compared to the stories of the female characters.
So, if a "girl power" epic is not your thing, then sure, Wheel of Time is not your thing. But if you thought the male characters were the main characters, then you missed the point. Wheel of Time's focus on the women as main characters, with male characters relegated to the supporting cast (if you have enough feminist awareness to see that), is what makes it unique in my eyes. I've never read another fantasy epic that puts women in the strongest character roles.
I had heard great things about The Wheel of time. My boss raved about it and I kept on reading reviews after reviews saying it was all that... Then I picked up book one.
I read through books 1-6 and it became increasingly harder and harder to get through. I get the whole "Farm boy who is actually this Uber-powerful guy and is set to save/destroy the world". I just couldn't stomach quite a lot of the story threads or the obvious tropes that got stolen from somewhere else. I am not saying that it was a bad series, it just wasn't my thing.
Which is funny because I LOVE Terry Pratchett and he steals EVERYTHING from somewhere else. But I love his sense of humor and his take on things.
The more I think of it though, I do think that Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos stories should be part of the list. Also, The Chronicles of Narnia and Alice's Adventures (wonderland and the looking glass).
@the_spyder , Jordan's Wheel of Time is all about the Aes Sedai, and the Taoist yin-yang duality reimagined by him into Saidar and Saidin.
Despite Rand al Thor being, on the surface, the male hero of the series and the classic "Hero" as defined by Joseph Campbell, the entire epic is all about the women. The *true* heroes, or I should say, "heroines", of the series are Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene. The stories of the males are almost subplots compared to the stories of the female characters.
So, if a "girl power" epic is not your thing, then sure, Wheel of Time is not your thing. But if you thought the male characters were the main characters, then you missed the point. Wheel of Time's focus on the women as main characters, with male characters relegated to the supporting cast (if you have enough feminist awareness to see that), is what makes it unique in my eyes. I've never read another fantasy epic that puts women in the strongest character roles.
Really? I mean, they're great gals and all, but I didn't think they overshadowed their male counterparts at all. Perrin and Mat's stories, for instance, never felt like subplots to me. But then again, I've only read up through part of book four... Does that change throughout the rest of the series?
It always seemed to be that Jordan wanted to give equal time to every character. Which is part of why his books are so hard to get through, because his roster is just so huge!
@the_spyder , Jordan's Wheel of Time is all about the Aes Sedai, and the Taoist yin-yang duality reimagined by him into Saidar and Saidin.
Despite Rand al Thor being, on the surface, the male hero of the series and the classic "Hero" as defined by Joseph Campbell, the entire epic is all about the women. The *true* heroes, or I should say, "heroines", of the series are Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene. The stories of the males are almost subplots compared to the stories of the female characters.
So, if a "girl power" epic is not your thing, then sure, Wheel of Time is not your thing. But if you thought the male characters were the main characters, then you missed the point. Wheel of Time's focus on the women as main characters, with male characters relegated to the supporting cast (if you have enough feminist awareness to see that), is what makes it unique in my eyes. I've never read another fantasy epic that puts women in the strongest character roles.
I love "Girl Power" story lines. I'm a long time Xena fan and Buffy is one of my all time favorite TV shows. I also enjoy literature with strong female roles.
For all of that, it wasn't who the main character was, it was the plodding, meandering writing style. My reasons for not liking it are all highly subjective and I don't doubt that it is a Good series, it just wasn't my thing.
>> Jordan wanted to give equal time to every character. Which is part of why his books are so hard to get through, because his roster is just so huge!<<
>> the plodding, meandering writing style.<<
Both of these! By book 5, I was starting to lose track of who was doing what, and why. I suspect that this is a danger with any series that goes on for so long. The first three books of Cook's "Black Company" were excellent, and "Silver Spike" was also good as a semi-autonomous sequel, but he started losing me when he continued the story with the "Books of the South" series. You will probably call me a heretic, but I even started becoming disenchanted towards the end of Zelzazny's Amber series.
I can't explain what the difference is, but I still enjoy Brust's Jhereg books. One suspects it is the style, but I can't pin down exactly what keeps the appeal going strong. The same for Pratchett's Discworld books, and Cook's Garret P.I. novels.
Let me throw out some other names for consideration.
Raymond Feist's books about Midkemia and the Riftwar Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords series ... people focus on his Berserker stories and forget he also wrote heroic fantasy Michal Moorcock's stories about Elric of Melnibone
@the_spyder, sure, I get it. I do agree that Jordan meanders unnecessarily. After all, he wound up dying before he could finish the series. I apologize, I think I overreacted to your criticisms, which are valid.
@Nonnahswriter , I guess you're right, and I was exaggerating. I probably subjectively remember it as a female-focused story because the most recent six or seven books are the freshest in my memory, where the focus is on the White Tower and on Elayne's rise to the Amyrlin Seat, and on Nynaeve's adventures.
It still seems to me that Rand, Mat, and Perryn are defined by their interactions with their female counterparts more than the reverse is true. I think that Jordan focuses on female-male dichotomy much more than most other fantasy writers do, and that he writes much stronger female characters than most other fantasy writers do.
Wheel of Time would definitely pass the Bechdel test, and I'm not sure the Belgariad would. Polgara and Ce'Nedra are very strong female characters, but they mostly talk about the male characters, and they are vastly outnumbered by male characters. I think Lord of the Rings definitely fails.
Wheel of Time's large cast of female characters have many more concerns in their lives than what the male characters are doing, and their relationships among each other independently of the men are deeply explored. I guess I really like that about Wheel of Time, although when I read it, especially the capture and torture of Rand by the Red Ajah, I sometimes thought that some of the Aes Sedai were very abusive towards men, and I was rooting for Rand when he broke free, raised an army of Saidin-using male Aes Sedai, and went on a rampage.
But I guess that's kind of the point of using the Red Ajah for antagonists in the story, that is, to get the reader to be sympathetic to the poor, abused men.
Jordan gets so engrossed in writing about the back-and-forth and tension between the females and males in the story, and Saidar and Saidin in the Source, that he seems to forget all about the original "main story arc" where Rand is supposed to confront Shaitan, who is apparently set up in the first three books to be the Ultimate Big Bad of the story. I guess that supports @the_spyder's criticism that Jordan meanders too much and loses focus.
I voted for the Witcher novels because they are so very *unlike* Western Fantasy. I felt a strong elegiac quality to them- of a certain time passing away, a time of magic and monsters that will never come again because the Witchers have been TOO GOOD at their jobs, and therefore, they must pass away as well, and how sad that is. The world has lost something it will never regain and even if the monsters were bad, there is a certain sadness at their passing, sort of a "And the world will never see their like again" that I have never felt from any other series. For that reason, they stand out strongly in my head.
Also, Don't forget the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. Another really excellent series.
I can't explain what the difference is, but I still enjoy Brust's Jhereg books. One suspects it is the style, but I can't pin down exactly what keeps the appeal going strong. The same for Pratchett's Discworld books, and Cook's Garret P.I. novels.
I am also a huge fan of Steven Brust's Jhereg books. What keeps me coming back to them is the style, hands down. I love the interaction between Vlad and Loish. And there is humor and sarcasm in the mix that just keeps it fresh. Same with Pratchett's Diskworld. The humor and the fresh and irreverent perspective keep me coming back for more. Shame there won't be any more Diskworld novels.
I was torn between Tolkien's works and the SoIaF series. I do like SoIaF for the brutal grittiness and the semi-authentic 15th century style setting (no monsters - the people are monstrous enough!!), but I think in the end I had to go with the one that started the whole genre, so I picked Tolkien's series (I'm assuming that by "Lord of the Rings" you are, by extension, including The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc).
The lore is just so much richer, and who can resist stories of elves, dwarves, orcs, and goblins - the staple fantasy creatures that have populated almost every fantasy genre that came after it?
Almost never read fantasy, even though I love Tolkien. As far as series go, I've read LoTR, a series of Drizzt books a long time ago, and 3/7 of Asoiaf.
and I was rooting for Rand when he broke free, raised an army of Saidin-using male Aes Sedai, and went on a rampage.
Oh god. He does what?
I really gotta get past book 4 at some point... ^_^;;
He and Elayne (Or Egwene, I really don't remember which) use these Saidin/Saidar boosting artifacts to cleanse Saidin of its taint. Afterwards (actually before), he sets up a group called the Asha'men who are men who can channel, and they fight on his side (although he does have problems of Asha'men going crazy before Saidin was cleansed.)
Oh bloody freaking hell! I totally forgot Jim Butcher and the Dresden Files!! I'm a huge fan of his works; I can only blame encroaching senility for forgetting to mention him. Slap my face with a dead flounder!
and I was rooting for Rand when he broke free, raised an army of Saidin-using male Aes Sedai, and went on a rampage.
Oh god. He does what?
I really gotta get past book 4 at some point... ^_^;;
He and Elayne (Or Egwene, I really don't remember which) use these Saidin/Saidar boosting artifacts to cleanse Saidin of its taint. Afterwards (actually before), he sets up a group called the Asha'men who are men who can channel, and they fight on his side (although he does have problems of Asha'men going crazy before Saidin was cleansed.)
Oh. Okay.
*takes deep breaths*
Okay...
Yeesh, don't scare me like that. >_<;; I know he's destined to blow up the world and all, but still...
and I was rooting for Rand when he broke free, raised an army of Saidin-using male Aes Sedai, and went on a rampage.
Oh god. He does what?
I really gotta get past book 4 at some point... ^_^;;
He and Elayne (Or Egwene, I really don't remember which) use these Saidin/Saidar boosting artifacts to cleanse Saidin of its taint. Afterwards (actually before), he sets up a group called the Asha'men who are men who can channel, and they fight on his side (although he does have problems of Asha'men going crazy before Saidin was cleansed.)
I'm sure it's Nynaeve, because Rand knows she's stronger than Elayne and Egwene put together, but yeah I did love the Asha'men, too bad Rand is really stupid about how he leads and deals with them.
Best quote ever:
"Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." —Mazrim Taim.
I'm leaping in to the whole Robert jirdan girl-power debate - a little late I know, but it's a bit of a hot topic for me. This is the reason I got increasingly furious with the Wheel of Time books. I eventually refused utterly to spend any more cash on them, and only finished the books actually written by Jordan when I could borrow them. Here's a list of what I actually detest about Jordan and his gender politics.
1/. "Girl" PowerGirl power is the right term. He reduces all females to girls, not women. They seem obsessed with childish petty ideas, the desire to appear mysterious and/or powerful and the insistence on refusing to communicate in a meaningful way to anyone who isn't also female.
2/. Sexual Harrasment and Abuse An inordinately high number of his women characters are sexual predators. Women use their physical, political and financial power to sexually harrasss men and even rape them. Although this does happen in real life, the proportion of male predators to female is much, much, much higher than shown in his books. Acually, I don't think ANY of his male characters are sexual predators rather than victims. What's also infuriating is that he portrays all women as seeing this sexual abuse as acceptable or even hilarious!
3/. The "War of the Sexes"Jordon's books feed into the belief so often seen in sepculative fiction (in book, film or game form) that all females think one way, and all males think another. He also portrays an annoying antagonism between genders and a tendancy for females to continually gang up together against males. In fact the reason why it seems so hard for his men to know "how women think " is simple. It doesn't bloody exist. The way each woman thinks is unique. Statistics show that cultural upbringing and social status have a more powerful effect on a persons opinions and character than gender.
@kiwidoc Yeah. The Queen pursuing Mat was amusing because of how he was usually the pursuer, and how disconcerting he found it. But after a certain point, it was less amusing and felt more… rapey? As is in, the lack of consent made me feel very uncomfortable.
But I also hated Rand becoming the ultimate Chick Magnet, in that all friendly women end up wanting him/sleeping with him (Moiraine and Nynaeve seem to be the only two who are immune.) Even Aviendha!
But I also hated Rand becoming the ultimate Chick Magnet, in that all friendly women end up wanting him/sleeping with him (Moiraine and Nynaeve seem to be the only two who are immune.) Even Aviendha!
Oh those darn Protagonist Powers. The curse bestowed to many a harem-anime-hero, and many epic fantasy heroes. Treat any girl with a sliver of kindness, and she'll be all over you. Magnet is an accurate term. The protagonist is just too awesome for any lady to resist, he emits this aura that pulls them to him! And the worst part? He can't turn it off!
(Heeeeey, maybe this "curse" really isn't that ba--*shot*)
But yeah. For a guy going insane and destined to save the world only after he destroys it, you'd think more of the girls would be smart enough to stay the hell away. But alas, love is not always smart.
Egwene was smart. If I remember the early books correctly, she rejected his budding feelings toward her and instead pursued other things. (Then Elayne jumped in on the rebound like the sassy schoolgirl she was... *sigh*) She uh... She stays smart, right? She doesn't hop back on the Rand bandwagon later, does she? Because if so, I'll be so disappointed.
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I am totally amazed no one has brought up Glen Cook's "Black Company" series, or his Garret, P.I. novels. Many consider the Black Company to be a seminal work in the evolution of heroic fantasy. How about Steven Brust's "Jhereg" series? Older authors that qualify might include L. Sprague de Camp, Fritz Lieber (someone mentioned his Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser books ... please note that "Fafhrd" is the password to enter the Thieve's Guild in BG1), Lord Dunsenay and R. E. Howard. Let us not forget that Tolkein wrote other works than LOTR (Hobbit, The Silmarillion), and was also a well respected professor of old English literature. His own writings had to be affected by his study of such opuses. Zelzazny did some stand-alone works in addition to the Amber series; my favorite was "Lord of Light".
The Arthurian Legend! Le Morte d'Arthur! The original Eragon/Star Wars!
Despite Rand al Thor being, on the surface, the male hero of the series and the classic "Hero" as defined by Joseph Campbell, the entire epic is all about the women. The *true* heroes, or I should say, "heroines", of the series are Moiraine, Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene. The stories of the males are almost subplots compared to the stories of the female characters.
So, if a "girl power" epic is not your thing, then sure, Wheel of Time is not your thing. But if you thought the male characters were the main characters, then you missed the point. Wheel of Time's focus on the women as main characters, with male characters relegated to the supporting cast (if you have enough feminist awareness to see that), is what makes it unique in my eyes. I've never read another fantasy epic that puts women in the strongest character roles.
It always seemed to be that Jordan wanted to give equal time to every character. Which is part of why his books are so hard to get through, because his roster is just so huge!
For all of that, it wasn't who the main character was, it was the plodding, meandering writing style. My reasons for not liking it are all highly subjective and I don't doubt that it is a Good series, it just wasn't my thing.
>> the plodding, meandering writing style.<<
Both of these! By book 5, I was starting to lose track of who was doing what, and why. I suspect that this is a danger with any series that goes on for so long. The first three books of Cook's "Black Company" were excellent, and "Silver Spike" was also good as a semi-autonomous sequel, but he started losing me when he continued the story with the "Books of the South" series. You will probably call me a heretic, but I even started becoming disenchanted towards the end of Zelzazny's Amber series.
I can't explain what the difference is, but I still enjoy Brust's Jhereg books. One suspects it is the style, but I can't pin down exactly what keeps the appeal going strong. The same for Pratchett's Discworld books, and Cook's Garret P.I. novels.
Raymond Feist's books about Midkemia and the Riftwar
Fred Saberhagen's Book of Swords series ... people focus on his Berserker stories and forget he also wrote heroic fantasy
Michal Moorcock's stories about Elric of Melnibone
@Nonnahswriter , I guess you're right, and I was exaggerating. I probably subjectively remember it as a female-focused story because the most recent six or seven books are the freshest in my memory, where the focus is on the White Tower and on Elayne's rise to the Amyrlin Seat, and on Nynaeve's adventures.
It still seems to me that Rand, Mat, and Perryn are defined by their interactions with their female counterparts more than the reverse is true. I think that Jordan focuses on female-male dichotomy much more than most other fantasy writers do, and that he writes much stronger female characters than most other fantasy writers do.
Wheel of Time would definitely pass the Bechdel test, and I'm not sure the Belgariad would. Polgara and Ce'Nedra are very strong female characters, but they mostly talk about the male characters, and they are vastly outnumbered by male characters. I think Lord of the Rings definitely fails.
Wheel of Time's large cast of female characters have many more concerns in their lives than what the male characters are doing, and their relationships among each other independently of the men are deeply explored. I guess I really like that about Wheel of Time, although when I read it, especially the capture and torture of Rand by the Red Ajah, I sometimes thought that some of the Aes Sedai were very abusive towards men, and I was rooting for Rand when he broke free, raised an army of Saidin-using male Aes Sedai, and went on a rampage.
But I guess that's kind of the point of using the Red Ajah for antagonists in the story, that is, to get the reader to be sympathetic to the poor, abused men.
Jordan gets so engrossed in writing about the back-and-forth and tension between the females and males in the story, and Saidar and Saidin in the Source, that he seems to forget all about the original "main story arc" where Rand is supposed to confront Shaitan, who is apparently set up in the first three books to be the Ultimate Big Bad of the story. I guess that supports @the_spyder's criticism that Jordan meanders too much and loses focus.
Also, Don't forget the Codex Alera series by Jim Butcher. Another really excellent series.
I really gotta get past book 4 at some point... ^_^;;
The lore is just so much richer, and who can resist stories of elves, dwarves, orcs, and goblins - the staple fantasy creatures that have populated almost every fantasy genre that came after it?
*takes deep breaths*
Okay...
Yeesh, don't scare me like that. >_<;; I know he's destined to blow up the world and all, but still...
Best quote ever:
"Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt."
—Mazrim Taim.
It just strikes the right balance of mood for me.
I haven't read the last one yet (I'm going to wait until the whole trilogy is out, then binge)
1/. "Girl" PowerGirl power is the right term. He reduces all females to girls, not women. They seem obsessed with childish petty ideas, the desire to appear mysterious and/or powerful and the insistence on refusing to communicate in a meaningful way to anyone who isn't also female.
2/. Sexual Harrasment and Abuse An inordinately high number of his women characters are sexual predators. Women use their physical, political and financial power to sexually harrasss men and even rape them. Although this does happen in real life, the proportion of male predators to female is much, much, much higher than shown in his books. Acually, I don't think ANY of his male characters are sexual predators rather than victims. What's also infuriating is that he portrays all women as seeing this sexual abuse as acceptable or even hilarious!
3/. The "War of the Sexes"Jordon's books feed into the belief so often seen in sepculative fiction (in book, film or game form) that all females think one way, and all males think another. He also portrays an annoying antagonism between genders and a tendancy for females to continually gang up together against males. In fact the reason why it seems so hard for his men to know "how women think " is simple. It doesn't bloody exist. The way each woman thinks is unique. Statistics show that cultural upbringing and social status have a more powerful effect on a persons opinions and character than gender.
But I also hated Rand becoming the ultimate Chick Magnet, in that all friendly women end up wanting him/sleeping with him (Moiraine and Nynaeve seem to be the only two who are immune.) Even Aviendha!
(Heeeeey, maybe this "curse" really isn't that ba--*shot*)
But yeah. For a guy going insane and destined to save the world only after he destroys it, you'd think more of the girls would be smart enough to stay the hell away.
Egwene was smart. If I remember the early books correctly, she rejected his budding feelings toward her and instead pursued other things. (Then Elayne jumped in on the rebound like the sassy schoolgirl she was... *sigh*) She uh... She stays smart, right? She doesn't hop back on the Rand bandwagon later, does she? Because if so, I'll be so disappointed.