What can I expect of Icewind Dale II?

VikingR

Hello guys,

Icewind Dale II is the only Infinity engine game that I've yet to play. I don't know why really. It is just that in those moments when my mind craves infinity gloy once again, I usually just jump to BG + BGII, sometimes Icewind Dale I.
Rinse and Repeat. It has always been like this.

Well, turns out I'm craving my (mostly biannual) infinity dosage and I've decided to put BG on ice for this year at least. I just don't want BG to become a game that I know completely by heart. It is too precious for that. I always need to "forget" about things in the game here and there and revel in joy as I rediscover and recollct them during a new playthrough. Sound weird, I know lol.

So, looking through GOG today I rediscovered Icewind Dale II and was very happy to remind myself that there is a whole, yet undiscovered infinity adventure awaiting me.

I've mostly read positive things about the game in the past, but also came accross comments that suggested that the game is absolutely no BG or even an IWD.

So, here are a few of my thoughts. I'd very much appreciate your impressions (Spoiler free please):
- Is it hard to go from D&D 2.5 to 3.0? Does this change the core gameplay more to the negative (in the sense that I'm used to the 2.5 system and love it) or the positive? Does is add more depth or does it simplify things?

- Story / atmosphere: IWD had a simple, yet compelling story. You did not know who you where up against and the parties search for answers only lead them deeper into hopelessness and despair. Your party purged temples of elemental evil one by one all over the Dale, but with each return to Kuldahar, things only started to get worse. The initial classical background (party leaves for heroic quest) is replaced by a pure, relentless fight for survival later on. You have no choice. Either fight for the Dale or be destroyed with it as it is consumed by darkness. Does Icewind Dale II achieve the same effect?

- Difficulty: I know that IWD 2 is going to be a relentless dungeon crawl. I like a challenge, but I've also heard that many encounters can just be plain frustrating/unfair.

- Voice Overs: IWD had very little but extrordinary voice-acting (Arundel, Kresselack, etc.). How does IWD II fare in this regard?

That's all my thoughts/questions for now. I might come up with more later on :P

tl;dr your spoilerfree impressions of playing IWD II and what makes it good/bad in comparison to the experience you get in BG + IWD I.

Thanks!

Belanos

VikingR said:

So, here are a few of my thoughts. I'd very much appreciate your impressions (Spoiler free please):
- Is it hard to go from D&D 2.5 to 3.0? Does this change the core gameplay more to the negative (in the sense that I'm used to the 2.5 system and love it) or the positive? Does is add more depth or does it simplify things?

While it's been too long since I've played the game to really comment on most of your questions, I can mention something about this. Version 3 is a considerable departure from version 2,5, it will take some getting used to. Though the differences are mainly in your character's development, not so much in the game play itself. A Fireball is still a Fireball. There are some nuances for some classes, like Thieves and Fighters, but nothing really that drastic as far as engaging them in combat is concerned. Personally I prefer it over 2.5, you have a lot more freedom to create unique characters, with abilities that can change from game to game depending on what "perks" you choose for them. And yes it does add more depth, at least as far as creating your characters is concerned. And once you figure out how the system works you'll be good to go for the Neverwinter games, which are also available on GOG. There's only minor differences between versions 3 and 3.5, which is what those games use.

iKrivetko

Going from 3e to 2e was easy, I don't see why it won't work the other way round. 3e is actually more intuitive in many ways (*cough* thac0 *cough*)

SionIV

IWDII is a good game, but it's very difficult if you're not used to it. Even someone that is a veteran player of Baldur's Gate won't have it easy with IWDII. And it is very unforgiving if you build a weak party, much more so than any of the other Infinity games.

wubble

You can expect Ice, wind and dales

It's still a good game though even if it can't quite match the others.

DreadKhan

2.5 vs 3.0 is the difference between a single speed bike and an 18 speed I think. Both will get you where you are going, but 3.0 is able to do much more. There is a bit to pick up, ie feats and skills vs proficiencies, but you ultimately have much more freedom. Biggest tip for beginners, pay attention to favoured classes if you might want to multiclass, and remember that the xp penalty is progressive, so you REALLY don't want to multiclass outside favoured class unless you keep their levels progressing equally. You might not notice -20%, but -40% is brutal, and -60% crippling.

In 2.5, any differences between 2 characters with the same class, race and level was Roleplay only, but in 3.0, you can have two 10th level fighters that are completely different. You CAN make pretty awful characters in 3.0, while in 2nd you couldn't screw up too bad due to everything being straightjacketed, but a mediocre roll in 2nd was a very weak character.

***NOTE: IMPROVED INITIATIVE DOES NOT WORK!!*** don't waste a first level feat on it! You might find a mod to help, but I never did.

That said, the game uses CR to generate XP, so if you have something like a Deep Gnome ubertank (ie a Monk/Wizard/Bane Cleric with the Expertise feat), you will get better XP after awhile, as your average level will be lower.

Another thing, for your first party be aware of Level Adjustment's effects; aim for no more than 4 total LA, and be cautious about making a caster with a LA. +1 isn't too bad, but for a sorcerer, that means you need level 7 to cast 3rd level spells, vs 6 without a LA, or 5 with a Wizard (scroll availibility is an issue though, so you can sometimes cast higher level spells than you have scrolls for). With +3, thats lvl 9 though, which is terrible.

The story is interesting, if you don't ignore it. The villains are really interesting. Voices are great, and portraits are enough to work with. The visuals are pretty incredible for its age, and the user interface is customizeable, aka flipping amazing. You can switch between sets of equipment, also amazing for archers, you can switch to a sword+shield without using the inventory screen.

The game has really tough fights btw, some gimicky, and some just outlandishly hard, so if you need help, feel free to ask. Pro-Tip: Clerics are really, really good. Animate Dead is one of the best spells in the game, ands its a lvl 3 slot. Bane and Lathander are great patrons. Overall though, a balanced party is a wonderful thing. Oh! 2 handed weapons deal 1.5×strength bonus, which means two-handers hit like a truck.

Belanos

iKrivetko said:

Going from 3e to 2e was easy, I don't see why it won't work the other way round. 3e is actually more intuitive in many ways (*cough* thac0 *cough*)

It's not that it's difficult, there's just a bit of a learning curve involved. It's not as easy to create a character as it is in 2nd edition, you have to do a bit more thinking about what you choose. And not just in the initial creation, you need to understand what the various perks do as you level up and gain the option of taking a few of them.

iKrivetko

DreadKhan said:

Oh! 2 handed weapons deal 1.5×strength bonus, which means two-handers hit like a truck.

They also receive a 2x bonus from power attack.

DreadKhan

Playing some IWD2 atm... holy crap do enemies ever crit hard. x3 damage crits are downright infuriating even for lvl 4 or 5 characters. Using a weaker party is also very hard, even if its not exactly a crap party... Trying to not make liberal use of Animate Dead seems pretty arduous, and high difficulty giving bonus damage to enemies makes for some really, really ugly crits. I don't know how many times I have lost a character that should have been 'okay'... maybe the bonus damage shouldn't be added for crits? Maybe only with ranged weapons? yeesh.

Relying on a Monk/Rogue as your tank is a dubious strategy, especially if they don't have 18 cons, and being a Monk... they don't have 18 cons. I really, really miss my Barbarian/Fighter brute two-hander and my

Also, why the hell does every enemy know where my party is despite them being off screen?? and having no line of sight?? Kinda makes scouting a fool's errand. Games can be hard, but having a bloody orc caster SNEAK AROUND THE ENTIRE MAP to drop a Snowball Swarm on my party just after it cleared a really ugly fight is so not cool. He didn't have line of sight, yet he decides to show up for no reason to drop a bomb on me? I call bullpoo.

the_spyder

I haven't seen it posted (please forgive if I missed it), IWDII is not a full implementation of 3.0. There are fewer class choices and not all of the skills were implemented. It's more than 2.5, but somewhat less than 3.0. Just sayin...

For me personally, I did go from 2e to IWDII 3e and found more than it a bit difficult to make the leap. Not to say everyone (or even anyone) else will do the same, merely that it was difficult for me. One of the key differences is that if you are used to mainly single class characters, 3e throws that right out the window. You can mix/match/blend classes quite regularly and with very little difficulty. Therefore it requires a bit of a paradigm shift in your character creation.

Skills/feats is another area that takes some getting used to. In 2e, largely all fighters have the same skills/feats (give or take weapon proficiencies). Mages are mages, though you still have to select spells, and Thieves pretty much all do the thieving thing (though to varying degrees of success). Not so in 3e. You have to be more strategic in your selection of these in order to make it work. Add to that the fact that the game is tough, and you can end up with a borked party if you aren't careful.

In short, you really need to spend a bit more time planning your characters entire development path rather than saying "Wizard", in order to be successful. As to if this is "Better" as some would have it, or "Worse", that is subjective indeed. I won't weigh in on either side because my view may not be the same as someone else's.

With all that having been said, it is still a very satisfying experience and I strongly encourage people to take the plunge. Be aware that this isn't a continuation of your IWD characters, although they are referenced. Some of the locations are the same and that adds a bit of nostalgia if you remember IWD (hopefully you've recently played IWD:EE so that won't be a problem).

Come back and let us know what you think.