An In-depth look at the Wizard Slayer Kit suggestions to improve it (For Phil's Reddit request)

Dragonspear

As the topic suggests, I'm going to take an in-depth look at the wizard slayer kit, what it's supposed to do and how exactly it compares against kits with a similar idea behind them or function. In particular, I'll compare the the Wizard Slayer versus the Berserker fighter kit, the Inquisitor paladin kit, the Monk and the Blackguard class details that were given on the AMAA done by Overhaul earlier today on Reddit.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2190/are-kits-going-to-be-re-balanced/p1 General Forums Link where most of these suggestions and ideas came from.



Wizard Slayer from the manual:

This warrior has been specially trained by his sect to excel in hunting and attacking spellcasters of all kinds.

Special abilities: Magic resistance, spell disruption.

Restrictions: May not use any magic items except for weapons and armor. (They can use healing potions)

Detailed Strengths and weaknesses from Game Banshee:

Strengths:

Magic resistance (2% per level), Spell disruption (each hit gives 10% [Cumulative] chance of spell failure) only applies with melee weapons without the BG2 fixpack or tweak pack (I forget which), Advanced Weapon Specialization (+++++), Can Use Any Weapon, Can Use Any Armor

Weaknesses:

Cannot use magic items except for weapons and armor, cannot cast spells

What this means is that at level 9 (highest for TotSC) will have:


18% Magic resistance; Grand Mastery (likely) in one of his weapons, probably specialization in the other (or have put points into a particular weapon style); a +2 or +3 variant of his preferred weapon; Full Plate +1 (which cannot be acquired until you kill Tamoko if i remember right); and possibly a shield; a helm; pair of boots

At level 19 (Highest for Shadows of Amn) they will have:


38% Magic resistance; Possible Grand Mastery in 2 weapons, or Grand Mastery in 1 weapon, Mastery in a second weapon and specialization in a style (or specialization in a style and Mastery in Two Weapon Fighting); Between a +3 and +5 weapon depending on what weapon you specialize in and whether you do Watcher's Keep; Full Plate +2 or +3 (don't remember, I know the Red Dragon armor is Full Plate +2); a shield; a helm; pair of boots

At level 40 (End of ToB) they have:


80% Magic Resist (Although I seem to remember their MR/Level was reduced past level 20); 7 more proficiency points from 19; likely a +5 or 6 variant of his preferred weapon; Full Plate +3 (I think); shield; helm; boots.

Now lets compare that with his buddies:

Berserker:

Level 9:
2-3 uses of Berserker Rage (+2 to hit/damage, -2 AC; immune to charm, hold, fear, maze, imprisonment, stun, and sleep, 15 health increase which can kill you when your rage ends if you're not above 15 health), +2 or +3 variant of your weapon, 7 Proficiency points, Full Plate, Ring of Protection +2 (-2 AC, improves saving throws by 2); Ring of Free Action [I think there is one in BG1] or another ring of your choice; Gauntlets of Weapon Specialization (+1 Thaco, +2 Damage); Necklace; Belt; Cloak; Potions to boost strength and defensive ability; boots; shield; helm.

Level 19:
5 uses of Berserker Rage, +3/+4 variant of your weapon, 10 Proficiency Points, 2 rings (likely 1 of free action and the other is the ring of gaxx), necklace, belt of strength, cloak; Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (same as before but with an extra 1/2 attack per round); More potions to boost strength and defensive ability; boots, helm, shield

Level 40:
11 possible uses of rage, +5 or +6 of your weapon(s), 17 Proficiency Points, and all the previously mentioned goodies

In this case the Wizard Slayer is outclassed because the things he fears most "ignoring damage or instant death spells due to high health pools and numerous ways to make yourself immune to instant death* hold, charm, maze, sleep and stun, are all ignored by your rage. This is further increased if you consider the ability to equip rings, necklaces, and belts offer significant immunities or resistances to damage type. Furthermore you're missing out on a possible strength belt and/or potions, and gloves to improve your combat prowess. All for a chance at resisting what a spellcaster might throw your way.


Inquisitor:

To be fair, this comparison really isn't fair for multiple reasons. Futhermore, I feel I already outlined the overall benefits that gear can give you except for Carsomyr or the Purifier +5.

Instead of Magic Resist you gain immunity to Charm and Hold (respectable but hey we have a chance to resist them), and dispel magic/true sight once per day at level 1, increases by 1 every 4 levels (11 uses of each at 40). While hitting a stoneskin or mirror image may give you spell disruption, these 2 spells can outright remove MANY mage defenses instantly. When you add in Carsomyr, this gets even sillier. Also you have the ability to cast Protection from Evil on yourself and you gain +2 to all saving throws for being a paladin, so the bonus even from playing a "shorty (dwarf, gnome, halfling)" namely better saving throws is lost. That said I have heard that the Grand Mastery table will likely be un-nerfed from its current BG2 form, so the fighter will get additional benefits there.


Monk:

You lose the ability to wear armor, but you can stealth and move faster. You have less health, but once you hit level 14 you gain 42% magic resist and go up 3% per level. You're immune to disease, slow (and haste), charm, poison and have the ability to cast lay on hands and instantly kill someone if they fail a save. You also get a fairly nice bonus to your saving throws.

Blackguard:

According to OverhaulKeith on Reddit in this comment from the AMAA:
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/z1af7/we_are_overhaul_games_the_team_behind_baldurs/c60pnt4

a blackguard will have the following abilities:

Must be evil
Immune to Fear and Level Drain
Can Specialize in any weapon (2 points)
Can use any armor
Absorbs Health (level 1 ability) to heal self quickly: Absorbs 2hp from enemy per level of Blackguard. Save vs. Magic
Can Turn Undead (Rebuke) as Paladin of Same Level
Can poison weapon 1x every 5 levels
Can use Aura of Despair. Once per day ability that varies with level: 2nd: Gives enemies -1 to hit, -1 to damage, +2 AC 6th: Gives enemies -2 to hit, -2 to damage, +2 to AC 15th: Gives enemies -4 to hit, -4 to damage, +4 to AC, causes Fear in enemies level 8 or below. 20th: Gives enemies -4 to hit, -4 to damage, +4 to AC, causes Fear in enemies level 18 or below.

Very good class if you're battling undead creatures or spellcasters (the poison weapon ability is particularly effective against them). The fighter is able to specialize up to grand mastery (5 slots) so is probably a better melee class overall.
Poison will make it virtually impossible for most casters to cast any spell that isn't instant. Also for the happy undead summoning wizards, I believe Blackguard Turning is supposed to act as an evil clerics and rather than watching them explode into bits you gain control of them (Hey fodder). You can also use Aura of Despair to make casters even easier to hit. In general I'd say its similar to the Inquisitor kit, although the inquisitor gets better immunities and dispel/true sight, poison makes up for that. Especially if you dual weild.


Now my argument for suggestions:
The clearest competitor is obviously berserker since they're both fighter classes. The changes I suggest then are based around this (Cause I think Kensai is fine where it is as a fighter).

Suggested Changes:

1. Minimum: This might already be done due to all the fixes that have been implemented, but apply the spell disruption on ranged attacks as well. This easily opens up a ranged option, especially for elven wizard slayers with the tasty Thac0 increase they have.

2. Reasonable: Allow Wizard Slayers to Wear Gloves and Belts to finish out their 'armor'. This would be an all around quality of life improvement. (This also applies to magical helms and boots if they aren't already equippable but I believe they are).

3. Perfect (In my eyes): Allow Wizard Slayers to wear any item they want that a regular fighter can wear, but limit them to only healing potions or no potions at all evil. This allows a WS to keep up decently with the rest of his fighter brethren, but really start to show off when Casters come to town. More to the point it allows the Wizard Slayer and the Berserker to each fight casters in their own way. Where the Berserker might be more willing to keep around caster companions, when it comes to a straight up fight with a caster he's popping his rage and hoping that the caster is dead by the end of it. The Wizard Slayer however just looks the Caster in the eye almost taunting them as they steadily resist more and more spells and the caster finds it harder and harder to cast.

4. Outrageous: No restrictions at all

Dragonspear

Gah, couldn't figure out how to add indented formatting. I hope this is still relatively clear enough to read.

Dragonspear

@PhilipDaigle you asked me in the AMA to give you my suggestions and problems I saw with the Wizard Slayer kit. Here they are Sir. Thank you for reading and please everyone feel free to add your thoughts and comments.

kiros

In the classes current state it does appear to be extremely redundant to use as opposed to the inquisitor (dispel magic) or blackguard (poison for spell disrupt).
However, I don't agree with them being able to utilize gloves/boots/amulets..for they're innate magical disruptive abilities their does need to be some small sacrifice on their part otherwise having a Wizard Slayer will be an always present commodity in party combinations.

In a previous post I stumbled upon a refinement mod for the Wizard Slayer that allowed the build to be much more viable;

WIZARD SLAYER: This warrior specializes in hunting down wielders of arcane magic. To that end, he conditions his body to resist magic and learns attack techniques that can disrupt arcane spellcasting. This rigorous training regimen requires the Wizard Slayer to forego the use of any magic items besides weapons, armor and healing potions. In addition, he must remain fully devoted to his cause and cannot pursue additional professions.


Advantages:
- Starts with 10% base magic resistance
- Gains an additional +2% bonus to magic resistance for every level of experience
- Gains the Disrupt Magic passive ability at first level
- Gains the Shatter Magic ability at first level and every 8 levels thereafter


Disadvantages:
- Cannot use any magic items except for weapons, armor and healing potions
- Cannot dual-class


Disrupt Magic:
Whenever a Wizard Slayer lands a successful hit on an arcane spellcaster the target is afflicted with a cumulative spell failure penalty. During the next 3 rounds, the victim has a 10% base chance to miscast any arcane spell plus 1% for every experience level the Wizard Slayer attains. This passive ability is always in effect.


Shatter Magic:
A Wizard Slayer can channel his innate magic resistance into his weapons in order to break through the magical defenses of arcane spellcasters. During the round when this ability is activated, each successful hit removes one combat and one specific protection from his target. However, this temporarily nullifies the Wizard Slayer's innate magic resistance making him vulnerable to magic during the next 2 rounds. Until his magic resistance recovers, the Wizard Slayer cannot use any special abilities that rely on it.


Component 2: Wizard Slayer High Level Ability revision

Quote
Reflect Magic (replaces Resist Magic)

An experienced Wizard Slayer eventually learns to channel his innate magic resistance in a manner which allows him to reflect magic back to its source. For 3 rounds after this ability is activated, all spells targeted directly against the Wizard Slayer are redirected back to the original caster. However, this temporarily nullifies the Wizard Slayer's innate magic resistance making him vulnerable to any spells that are not directly targeted at him. This vulnerability takes effect when the ability is activated and persists for 3 rounds after it expires. Until his magic resistance recovers, the Wizard Slayer cannot use any special abilities that rely on it.


Arcane Bane (replaces War Cry)

An experienced Wizard Slayer can apply a special technique to his attacks making them extremely effective against wielders of arcane magic. For 2 rounds after this ability is activated he gains a +5 bonus to damage against all arcane spellcasters. Furthermore, the Wizard Slayer's attacks become so forceful that his opponents must save vs. death with a -4 penalty or lose one of their memorized spells on each hit.

Link; http://www.shsforums.net/topic/49205-wizard-slayer-rebalancing-v106/

Anyway, food for thought.

Dragonspear

I saw that kit as well when I was doing my research for this post. Personally I feel that is one way to go about it, but its extra work on the Dev's contacting the mod creator to get permission, etc. I definitely agree that it is good that its here though to present another option to consider for the Kit.

kiros

Thought it might serve well as a base line of sorts for modifying the class.
I really like 10% base magic resistance and additional 2% per level (by ToB you should be in the 90% range) which is quite substantial.
They also need a means of piercing through spell protection, perhaps a chance to remove one spell protection on strike (like disrupt magic)

Dragonspear

I think adding a BG2 level ability that gives them a chance on hit dispel similar to Carsomyr would be nice but might be overkill. But I do see what you're saying and I do remember even by chapter 4 in BG1 mages were starting to get some really nice defenses. Honestly I just wish I could use things like the gloves I linked earlier and some of the many strength belts around.

Medillen

@Dragonspear I don't think the monk comparison was useful. The classes are miles apart in design and use, you have no real bases for common ground reference :-) I think giving WS the disruptive ability with ranged weapons will make them perfectly matched to others though. Or maybe an % chance on every hit to cancel a random mage protection. Even if it's a small % it may just be sufficient to tip the scales.

Anton

Dragonspear said:

Suggested Changes:

1. Minimum: This might already be done due to all the fixes that have been implemented, but apply the spell disruption on ranged attacks as well. This easily opens up a ranged option, especially for elven wizard slayers with the tasty Thac0 increase they have.

Definitely needed.
And it should be applied at successful hit, not damage inflicted.

Drugar

Alternatively, drop the magic resistance and give an immunity to spell levels.
Let's say, Immune to one spell level per four Wizard Slayer levels. That way, the wizard slayer is immune to level 1 spells at level 4, level 3 spells at level 13 and level 9 spells at level 36.

Magic resistance is easy as balls to come by (items, potions, hell trial upgrades), half my party in ToB right now is sporting 60-70% magic resistance at least. Changing it to immunity makes it more reliable and a different mechanic than the other classes that get Magic Resistance, which is a little more interesting.
I'd also allow him the use of gauntlets/girdles/boots simply because they fall under 'armor' in my book and because the power discrepancy between classes becomes really huge in later levels if all his strength has to come from just his armour and weapon.

kiros said:

Disrupt Magic:
Whenever a Wizard Slayer lands a successful hit on an arcane spellcaster the target is afflicted with a cumulative spell failure penalty. During the next 3 rounds, the victim has a 10% base chance to miscast any arcane spell plus 1% for every experience level the Wizard Slayer attains. This passive ability is always in effect.

Shatter Magic:
A Wizard Slayer can channel his innate magic resistance into his weapons in order to break through the magical defenses of arcane spellcasters. During the round when this ability is activated, each successful hit removes one combat and one specific protection from his target. However, this temporarily nullifies the Wizard Slayer's innate magic resistance making him vulnerable to magic during the next 2 rounds. Until his magic resistance recovers, the Wizard Slayer cannot use any special abilities that rely on it.

I also heartily approve of these.

kiros

Drugar said:

Alternatively, drop the magic resistance and give an immunity to spell levels.

I think a complete immunity to spells in general might be a bit overpowered in this case, a mage needs to be able to defend them self to some degree i.e lowering magic resistance. (80-90% magic resistance without using items to achieve is still incredibly high..)

Drugar said:

I'd also allow him the use of gauntlets/girdles/boots simply because they fall under 'armor' in my book

To allow access to these items feels like he's receiving all pro's without any con's.
e.g why would anyone choose a pure fighter when they can choose a wizard slayer instead?

There need's to be some form of balance implemented, I personally would sacrifice a few magic items for his high-end wizard slaying abilities.

Sabotin

At lower levels I'd swap magic resistance for a saving throw bonus vs spells, and maybe a weapon speed bonus.
I wouldn't go the dispel on hit route, rather maybe something like making each attack count as multiple for certain purposes (faster removing images/skins, spell interruption, lesser effect of invisibility...) if possible, at medium levels. And spell resistance would be already useful about now.
Some lower level spell immunity (not more than 5) at later levels would also be interesting, becoming immune to some buffs, too.

Dragonspear

@Medillen

Monks are included just because their Magic Resist outshines even a wizard slayers and it was brought up in other threads how even the monk does the job of killing the wizard better. I'll admit I was rather tired by the time I got to Inquisitor and Monk so I seriously skimped on them.

Overall I still feel they deserve the least comparison, its merely that they get a better MR than the WS does.

Dragonspear

What if we considered the following.

Allowed him the armor (yes I understand he has to have cons but I'm getting to that), but no potions other than healing potions (This would still be a highly significant con).

At the start he begins with his spell disruption on hit
At level 9 (Very end of TotSC) he gains MR equal to his level times 2. Continues to go up in level (similar to monk)
At level 19 (End of SoA) We give him a dispel on hit ability.

@Drugar

I think that if he's only given belts and gloves in addition to what he's currently allowed it would still be a con. Yes he'll get extra strength and damage from the belt and gloves respectively, but you won't get a lot of the extra protections/AC you would otherwise get from Rings and Cloaks. I mean this means no cloak of mirroring or balduran, no ring of gaxx or ring of free action, etc.

Medillen

@Dragonspear monk's MR stops at 72% I seem to remember. So, while it's progression is faster, WS is the winner in the end. I don't really agree with monk being better killers.

The gameplay is basically different, Monks don't have +4/+5 weapons and can't do anything in front of mantle.

Even worst, at some point their fist is considered magical, so a protection from magical weapons is sufficient to make them cry (a hit from a normal weapon from a monk is like a sissy punch while even normal weapons in the hand of a WS is bad news).

I don't even speak about large HP/thaco difference. And they are limited to humans, and no dual class - without any doubt the biggest setback. Yeah they can wear more magical items but... it's literally to different to really compare the two of them. The first is based on armor and weapons, the other is base on having NO armor and NO weapons. How different can that be even more different ? xD xD

Dragonspear

@Medillen

Ah I hadn't gone back and checked the original manual for monks. I know that they been implemented correctly they would have had +5 on their fists by the 20th level and roll 1d20 (i think) for their damage per attack. Point taken though and you're right.

Silence

Here is my distillation of the problem.

1. The low magic resistance of the Wizard slayer is inferior to the immunities and resistances conferred by other kits and other items.
Barbarians/Berserkers using the rage ability are immune, not resistant, to most harmful magic effects. Inquistors and Cavaliers are innately immune, not resistant, to hold and charm spells. The magic resistance of the Wizard Slayer simply does not compare to the immunities these kits offer. Futher, these other kits can equip items which grant immunity to magic effects, whereas the Wizard Slayer cannot. He is stuck with a mediocre resistance to magic in place of immunity.

Further, as @Dragonspear points out, even when it comes to magic resistance, the Wizard Slayer is surpassed by the Monk, who receives a huge 'lump sum' of magic resistance at level 14. So the Wizard Slayer is really second-best at what is a comparatively sub-par ability. The comparison is important, IMO.

2. The Wizard slayer's ability to cause spell failure in an enemy caster simply just isn't as useful as killing the caster quickly.
Most casters die in seconds. They're usually the first enemies you target. All other warrior classes can do pretty insane damage to a caster (Archer, Kensai, Barbarian in rage, etcetra). The Wizard Slayer deals far less damage than all these classes, who receive special bonuses to combat and can equip awesome items (like gauntlets of weapon specialization). Why disable a caster when you can kill them outright?

The inquisitor is also infinitely better at killing mages. The dispel magic cast by the Inquisitor basically removes any buff - stoneskin or otherwise. The mage never lives to cast another spell.

My solutions:
1. Make chance of spell failure apply to ranged weapons. This one change alone makes the wizard slayer extremely dangerous. Other people seem to love this idea too.
2. Boost starting magic resistance or rate of increase of magic resistance. If the Wizard Slayer is going to be the guy who resists magic, make him the flat-out best at it. Again, a popular idea with fans.
3. Give the Wizard Slayer an activated ability which disables mages. Imagine giving the Wizard Slayer a Miscast magic power. Or better yet an AoE miscast magic. This would be hugely useful. Make it penetrating + hard to resist. Or give the Wizard Slayer an ability which debuffs mages (as the spellhold studios mod does).
4. Give the Wizard Slayer an activated ability which improves his ability to resist effects. Kind of like a minor Globe of invulnerability. This would be on par with the immunities granted by rage.

Most of these changes are already incorporated in the pretty-awesome shs mod referenced by @Kiros. I think the mod was done by @Avenger_teambg and a few others, though I'm not certain. Some of these peeps might be on this board.

kiros

I think we can all agree with the above solutions as stated by @Silence, I don't believe making these changes would be game breaking or overpowered but ultimately serve to balance the Wizard slayer into a much more viable and respectable class.

Most importantly, he needs the ability to cut through those protection spells to some degree.

HvitrEbrithil

I do like your idea, @Dragonspear. It does make Wizard Slayer a much more viable kit, but I think it kinda makes it a little too advanced, just piling on top of the already damaged original build. Personally, I like the Wizard Slayer revision @kiros posted better. It makes it a much more functionable kit, and I think it makes more sense than the original kit. And a lot more fun. I'm just worried it would be too much work for the developers, countrary to the one @Dragonspear posted..

Flame_Excess

There are two ways of fixing the class in terms of mechanics: either by making it more superficial or more detailed. In my opinion, the first is the better since there are other classes to offer everything else the wizard slayer could have. So, my idea is that the class should thus be stripped down to its simplest form.

Strengths:
100% Spell failure on hits (that deal damage) and for the rest of the round.

Weaknesses:
Can't cast or activate special abilities from magical items (although the use of potions are allowed. Ex: ring of invisibility).

+ a minimal change that includes ranged attacks for spell failure

So it's basically a fighter... with a slight distinction that makes it very attractive compared to a straight fighter. Yet, that's only if you don't opt for a multiclassed build.

Dragonspear

@HvitrEbrithil I agree that the mod that @kiros linked feels more in line with the original kit. However I also find it lacking in 2 spaces.

1. I find it lacking in terms of work required by the Team to get it finished up.
2. I feel that while it helps, some things really shouldn't wait. For example: Always have the increased chance to hit spell casters shouldn't wait. Furthermore, the kit will still eventually get outshined by gear that the Berserker and Inquisitor can get that gives them so many extra goodies that not only increase their abilities to completely maul spellcasters, but most other things that come in their path too.

The minimum consensus so far does seem to be that they at least need their spell disrupt ability on ranged attacks though. Yay for that much progress.

HvitrEbrithil

@Dragonspear, but you also need to take into account dual-classing a Wizard Slayer. If you dual-wield a Wizard Slayer with a Thief now, one could finish the game solo, easy as pie.. This is also a dilemma, but this is mostly due to the thiefs ability to use ANY item late-game in ToB.

Silence

I don't think Use Any Item is a huge problem. The reason is that to acquire Use Any Item requires dual-classing and tremendous leveling, and won't occur until ToB. In BG1, and most of BG2, when the wizard slayer lags in development, you will not have Use Any Item avilable.

Most HLAs are game-breakers. I don't want to balance BG1 for something that won't occur for another thirty hours of gameplay.

Dragonspear

I gotta agree with @Silence here.

Not only that, but you're also going to be capping the point at which you start gaining MR at that point. The most common dual class point (13 so you have 3 attacks/round) will only give you 26% Magic Resistance, 9 Proficiency Points (which means only grand mastery in one weapon), and your spell disruption.

That said yes it will be more effective than a plain wizard slayer but most dual classes are.

HvitrEbrithil

You both have valid points there...
As I see it, it should be up to the devs how much work they want to put into this kit. 'cause something needs to be done. If they wanna make it an effective and quick process, I would suggest they go for your solution, @Dragonspear, but if they wanna make it a little project of their own and put some time into it, I would suggest they go for the one @kiros posted.
If I am not mistaken, the link @kiros posted was also a finished mod for BGII, so wouldn't cooperating with the mod-creators there make it a very easy process to implement? #this http://www.shsforums.net/topic/49205-wizard-slayer-rebalancing-v106/

Dee

Another thought: Make the Wizard Slayer's magic resistance work like Viconia's MR in BG1--i.e. it protects her from both offensive and defensive magic.

That would be a pretty good balancing act, which would eliminate any concerns about whether or not it would be too powerful to remove the equipment restriction.

Forsling

Personally I think it would be very interesting if instead of the class not being allowed magical equipment (there are already other classes that restricts equipment), they aren't allowed magical weapons. They would need some sort of advantage where their weapons strikes as a +x depending on their level, similar to a monk, as well as some other bonuses to compensate. Maybe at higher levels their hits causes dispel magic on their target, like Carosmyr.

For some reason I just like the idea of being far into the game wielding a plain umagical two-handed sword.

Dee

I used to think like that, @Forsling.

But then I realized that fighting Sephiroth while still wielding the Buster Sword was suicide.

Forsling

Aw hell, @Aosaw, you really brought me back there. You're right though, it's probably a bad idea. It's just that wizardslayer sounds very compelling, it should be at least a very interesting class, even if it's not the best one.

mjs

i played a fighter in BG, kitted him in BG2 to a WS and he was pretty immense. Also I'm fairly sure that actually by lvl 40 he's over 100% MR. The ToB change is Innate magic resistance of 14%. Gains +2% magic resistance until level 20, and then alternates between 5% and 1% every level thereafter.

14 base + 2x20lvls + 5x10lvls + 1x10lvls = 114%

My maths isn't great, feel free to correct as needed. plus there are plenty of weapons and armour with extra resistances etc to help buff too

Dragonspear

The 14% base should merely be its introductory MR for the 7 levels you start at if I'm not mistaken. I'll boot up BG2 later and double check