Oh, absolutely it is a matter of degrees. And otherwise good people can do the occasional questionable act. But that doesn't make the act itself not evil simply because the person happens to be good (or has good intentions).
After all, at the end of the day 99% of all adventurers, regardless of alignment, end up being mass-murderers. If you wrack up all of the sentient bodies left behind by any self respecting 10th level Paladin, I bet it would surpass most serial killers wildest dreams.
DnD recommends a pretty simple definition of evil for some things. Using evil for a good end is evil, and a Paladin will fall for it, as an example of the extreme end of things. For non-Paladins, its a bit murky, but generally speaking, the two should be treated seperately. Doing evil for a good cause is still evil, but the good is a mitigating factor.
Unless something has an Intelligence score, it should indeed have no alignment. However, not that many things have 0. Animals in more reasonable editions default to Neutral, but Dolphins used to be Lawful Good. I wish I was kidding.
DnD has a tendency to be pretty black and white as far as the actual rules are concerned. And you are right that a Paladin doing evil should at minimum bet a very stern talking to from his/her Patron. If the infraction is enough, or is done enough times, fall. Therein lies the beauty of a DM run game in that the DM will be the final arbiter of such a situation.
And why shouldn't Dolphins be lawful good? After all, they are the most intelligent form of life on the planet and just want to muck about in the water and have fun. At least until the Earth gets demolished by the Vogons...
Dolphins aren't smart enough to avoid tuna nets. Seriously though, the more I learn about social insects, the less impressive I find just about all other intelligence. Show me a dolphin that has bred its own variety of Aphids for livestock, damnit, let alone one that builds a house!
I agree DM discretion is required for actually running a game, but by the rules, 2ndEd Paladins fall very easily, and generally can't regain favour.
So if the undead themselves are inherently evil, but the caster uses the spell to save the orphanage, I guess the caster has done a neutral action? Is that how that works?
Always confused about what happens when you use an evil spell for a good action.
I would say that yes. Remember, that actions determine one's alignment.
Paladins aren't Lawful Good because they one day said "Hey, I guess I'll be good and don't do evil stuff". They strive to do good wherever they can, constantly and also not break their oaths and Code of Conduct.
A necromancer that is Neutral and creates undead, will eventually become Evil. A necromancer that is not using Evil spells, but instead uses his powers for good, will be Good. A necromancer that is doing an Evil act to do some Good, will remain Neutral.
That is up to the DM's decision. But it depends on the act. Do you really need undead to do that Good act? Wasn't there some other way? If you were really forced and desperate, then it was a necessary Evil.
But if you keep doing and finding excuses, then you will go Evil, soon.
Dolphins aren't smart enough to avoid tuna nets. Seriously though, the more I learn about social insects, the less impressive I find just about all other intelligence. Show me a dolphin that has bred its own variety of Aphids for livestock, damnit, let alone one that builds a house!
I agree DM discretion is required for actually running a game, but by the rules, 2ndEd Paladins fall very easily, and generally can't regain favour.
"man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.” - Douglas Adams
I won't be able to contribute much to all the fascinating philosophical speculation about the inner fantasy workings of undead, but I always feel guilty if I use them with a good character, and the same for summoning monsters, or especially animals.
This is because of fantasy tradition. I can't think of any examples from myth, literature, or film where the good guys do such things. It's always the villains. Is there an example of an epic, mythical, story world where the hero is a necromancer who saves the world using his mighty army of skeletons, zombies, mummies, wraiths, and vampires, all created or dominated into submission by him and his mighty powers of draining life from the living and raising undead? It's always the other way around in any story I've ever experienced - the necromancer is the villain of the piece, who must be defeated in order to save the world from the horrible fate he plans for it.
I also don't see the heroes of any epic stories I know summoning monsters to fight for them. It seems dishonorable at best, and very likely evil if those monsters are being forced to fight against their will. I especially have a problem with druids using innocent natural animals to fight for them. That seems like the opposite of what a druidic hero should be doing, which is protecting animals, not making them fight.
Wait, those are bad... well, they still invented domesticated agriculture!
Also, Dolphins are perverts, look it up, true facts.
Just to play devil's advocate (if for no other reason).
I am pretty sure that ants didn't invent slavery. The workers aren't forced to work as they do, it is part of who they are. And I am not sure why kidnapping is in the mix.
As for Dolphins being perverts, I think you will find that society created rules which define perversion. Much like Wars and things, Man has once again created an arbitrary set of rules for itself (and apparently everyone else). The fact that Dolphins don't subscribe to these arbitrary man made standards, is hardly a black mark for them. They also don't obey speed limits. Nor do they wear clothing. What's your point.
Again, for fun and nothing else.
@BelgarathMTH - just for fun sake, Aragorn summons the spirits of the dead in the Return of the king. It isn't 'Technically' a necromancer summoning wights and vampires, but you did ask. But more or less, yes. I whole heartedly agree with your assessment. Summoning the dead, infusing corpses with negative energy and dominating them to do your will, regardless of what that will is, does seem evil to me.
I won't be able to contribute much to all the fascinating philosophical speculation about the inner fantasy workings of undead, but I always feel guilty if I use them with a good character, and the same for summoning monsters, or especially animals.
This is because of fantasy tradition. I can't think of any examples from myth, literature, or film where the good guys do such things. It's always the villains. Is there an example of an epic, mythical, story world where the hero is a necromancer who saves the world using his mighty army of skeletons, zombies, mummies, wraiths, and vampires, all created or dominated into submission by him and his mighty powers of draining life from the living and raising undead? It's always the other way around in any story I've ever experienced - the necromancer is the villain of the piece, who must be defeated in order to save the world from the horrible fate he plans for it.
I also don't see the heroes of any epic stories I know summoning monsters to fight for them. It seems dishonorable at best, and very likely evil if those monsters are being forced to fight against their will. I especially have a problem with druids using innocent natural animals to fight for them. That seems like the opposite of what a druidic hero should be doing, which is protecting animals, not making them fight.
This actually makes me quite sad
I'd love to read about a hero necromancer.
I suppose my own primary issue is I myself IRL generally act good and would classify myself as CG from my actions (not my point of view, like my actions themselves).
If I was in a fantasy setting, hell yeah I'd jump onto learning necromancy. I love undead and the idea of as my foes die, my forces get stronger. As long as I keep animating my allies' corpses and my foes' corpses I can't lose because massive army of the dead.
Am I going to take over the world? No. Am I going to murder and pillage? No.
I'd help out whatever cause I/my friends are fighting for.
If we seek to stop orc invasions I'll fend them off and tell them to stop attacking before they get wiped out.
After all is done I'd release my undead back to death.
I suppose in that I'd be CN. I care deeply for my friends and if they request I don't animate them after death I wouldn't.
My enemies? Well they decided to not be my friend, therefore, they're going to get demolished until they decide to surrender.
I suppose I could try other methods but I have a weird fascination with undeath >_>
@the_spyder , That's a good example, which may be an exception that proves the rule. Heroes are "allowed" in the epics to occasionally call on the good spirits of ancient warriors for help. This is often accomplished through a magic item such as a horn to be sounded. As a story device, the magic that summons the good warrior spirits is supposed to be used only at the most dire time of need, often at a climax point in the story conflict.
I see this kind of example as being of a different quality than using skeletons, zombies, and the like. I don't think I'd really count summoning the good spirits as using undead, especially since they are usually imagined to have agreed to the summoning pact before hand.
Necromancy is most of the times considered evil because it is the quickest path to power : Control of Life and Death. Why cast magic missiles or charm someone when you can drain his life force?
Animating dead is culturally considered evil because it desecrates the bodies , and that is considered an unholy action, which upsets good and neutral gods.
Saying that "magic can be neutral" is the same of saying "science is neutral" - it's Bull$##, you either do it do help people , or you do it for selfish/greedy reasons.
Here's a thought. Necromancers rise to power basically through profiting off of death. The more dead there are, the more they have to control. I'd call that pretty evil.
Wait, those are bad... well, they still invented domesticated agriculture!
Also, Dolphins are perverts, look it up, true facts.
Just to play devil's advocate (if for no other reason).
I am pretty sure that ants didn't invent slavery. The workers aren't forced to work as they do, it is part of who they are. And I am not sure why kidnapping is in the mix.
As for Dolphins being perverts, I think you will find that society created rules which define perversion. Much like Wars and things, Man has once again created an arbitrary set of rules for itself (and apparently everyone else). The fact that Dolphins don't subscribe to these arbitrary man made standards, is hardly a black mark for them. They also don't obey speed limits. Nor do they wear clothing. What's your point.
Again, for fun and nothing else.
@BelgarathMTH - just for fun sake, Aragorn summons the spirits of the dead in the Return of the king. It isn't 'Technically' a necromancer summoning wights and vampires, but you did ask. But more or less, yes. I whole heartedly agree with your assessment. Summoning the dead, infusing corpses with negative energy and dominating them to do your will, regardless of what that will is, does seem evil to me.
I was referring to how some species of ant do no work beyond stealing very young and eggs from other ant colonies. The slave-ants do all the traditional ant labour. Even raising young ants, aka of a different species. Quite disturbing actually. Thats what kidnapping has to do with it. Ants are pretty impressive, but they sure do have funny ethics.
While I was clearly making a joke (hence 'True Facts'), Dolphins DO have a history of sexually assaulting humans. Mind you, so do humping dogs. *shrug* For that matter, so do people... BUT ANTS DO NOT! So take that as you will.
Still say Death is really beyond good and evil, but I seem unpopular.
Still say Death is really beyond good and evil, but I seem unpopular.
While 'Death' may be beyond good and evil, after all we all go there, necromancy is something different entirely. If death is a natural state, and an argument can absolutely be made to support such, necromancy is the unnatural reanimation of dead tissue. That being said it is against nature by definition. One could argue that the unnatural act itself might be seen as evil, independent of the intent of the necromancer in question. Add to that the fact that negative energy is what such evil creatures as wights and vampires use to drain the life force of living beings and further that it is this same negative energy that is used to animate skeletons, thus turning them from a natural occurrence into an unnatural one and one can see a reasonable correlation between the 'Belief' that necromancy is evil, if not necessarily the reality.
It occured to me that this comic is relevant to the thread topic. It's the Order of the Stick comic where Redcloak turns Tsukiko's wights against her. The pertinent speech is on the 8th horizontal bar of panels down from the top, and it begins, "See, the undead are tools. Powerful, dangerous tools..."
Comments
After all, at the end of the day 99% of all adventurers, regardless of alignment, end up being mass-murderers. If you wrack up all of the sentient bodies left behind by any self respecting 10th level Paladin, I bet it would surpass most serial killers wildest dreams.
Unless something has an Intelligence score, it should indeed have no alignment. However, not that many things have 0. Animals in more reasonable editions default to Neutral, but Dolphins used to be Lawful Good. I wish I was kidding.
And why shouldn't Dolphins be lawful good? After all, they are the most intelligent form of life on the planet and just want to muck about in the water and have fun. At least until the Earth gets demolished by the Vogons...
I agree DM discretion is required for actually running a game, but by the rules, 2ndEd Paladins fall very easily, and generally can't regain favour.
Remember, that actions determine one's alignment.
Paladins aren't Lawful Good because they one day said "Hey, I guess I'll be good and don't do evil stuff".
They strive to do good wherever they can, constantly and also not break their oaths and Code of Conduct.
A necromancer that is Neutral and creates undead, will eventually become Evil.
A necromancer that is not using Evil spells, but instead uses his powers for good, will be Good.
A necromancer that is doing an Evil act to do some Good, will remain Neutral.
That is up to the DM's decision. But it depends on the act. Do you really need undead to do that Good act?
Wasn't there some other way? If you were really forced and desperate, then it was a necessary Evil.
But if you keep doing and finding excuses, then you will go Evil, soon.
Wait, those are bad... well, they still invented domesticated agriculture!
Also, Dolphins are perverts, look it up, true facts.
This is because of fantasy tradition. I can't think of any examples from myth, literature, or film where the good guys do such things. It's always the villains. Is there an example of an epic, mythical, story world where the hero is a necromancer who saves the world using his mighty army of skeletons, zombies, mummies, wraiths, and vampires, all created or dominated into submission by him and his mighty powers of draining life from the living and raising undead? It's always the other way around in any story I've ever experienced - the necromancer is the villain of the piece, who must be defeated in order to save the world from the horrible fate he plans for it.
I also don't see the heroes of any epic stories I know summoning monsters to fight for them. It seems dishonorable at best, and very likely evil if those monsters are being forced to fight against their will. I especially have a problem with druids using innocent natural animals to fight for them. That seems like the opposite of what a druidic hero should be doing, which is protecting animals, not making them fight.
I am pretty sure that ants didn't invent slavery. The workers aren't forced to work as they do, it is part of who they are. And I am not sure why kidnapping is in the mix.
As for Dolphins being perverts, I think you will find that society created rules which define perversion. Much like Wars and things, Man has once again created an arbitrary set of rules for itself (and apparently everyone else). The fact that Dolphins don't subscribe to these arbitrary man made standards, is hardly a black mark for them. They also don't obey speed limits. Nor do they wear clothing. What's your point.
Again, for fun and nothing else.
@BelgarathMTH - just for fun sake, Aragorn summons the spirits of the dead in the Return of the king. It isn't 'Technically' a necromancer summoning wights and vampires, but you did ask. But more or less, yes. I whole heartedly agree with your assessment. Summoning the dead, infusing corpses with negative energy and dominating them to do your will, regardless of what that will is, does seem evil to me.
I'd love to read about a hero necromancer.
I suppose my own primary issue is I myself IRL generally act good and would classify myself as CG from my actions (not my point of view, like my actions themselves).
If I was in a fantasy setting, hell yeah I'd jump onto learning necromancy. I love undead and the idea of as my foes die, my forces get stronger. As long as I keep animating my allies' corpses and my foes' corpses I can't lose because massive army of the dead.
Am I going to take over the world? No. Am I going to murder and pillage? No.
I'd help out whatever cause I/my friends are fighting for.
If we seek to stop orc invasions I'll fend them off and tell them to stop attacking before they get wiped out.
After all is done I'd release my undead back to death.
I suppose in that I'd be CN. I care deeply for my friends and if they request I don't animate them after death I wouldn't.
My enemies? Well they decided to not be my friend, therefore, they're going to get demolished until they decide to surrender.
I suppose I could try other methods but I have a weird fascination with undeath >_>
I see this kind of example as being of a different quality than using skeletons, zombies, and the like. I don't think I'd really count summoning the good spirits as using undead, especially since they are usually imagined to have agreed to the summoning pact before hand.
Animating dead is culturally considered evil because it desecrates the bodies , and that is considered an unholy action, which upsets good and neutral gods.
Saying that "magic can be neutral" is the same of saying "science is neutral" - it's Bull$##, you either do it do help people , or you do it for selfish/greedy reasons.
While I was clearly making a joke (hence 'True Facts'), Dolphins DO have a history of sexually assaulting humans. Mind you, so do humping dogs. *shrug* For that matter, so do people... BUT ANTS DO NOT! So take that as you will.
Still say Death is really beyond good and evil, but I seem unpopular.
Just sayin...
And yes, everyone dies. It is the great leveler.
Undeath is evil (most of the times), it's unnatural.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html