Gold Box Games question.

Vallmyr

So I'm going back and looking to try some of the Gold Box games after I finish Dragon Age: Inquisition. I downloaded both Menzoberranzan and Champions of Krynn. I was reading through the manuals and noticed the most horrible thing!

No Necromancy spells!

Ghastly, am I correct?

In the Champions of Krynn setting, Dragonlance, only Black Robe (Evil Wizards) can use Necromancy and they aren't allowed as PCs! It seems Clerics don't have necromancy outside of the cure spells either.

Does anyone know of any of these old D&D rpgs that allow a necromancer player character?

the_spyder

Way back then there was a very strong emphasis on making the games appeal to a more wholesome ethic (by their definition, if not ours). There was a heavy eye on the community as a whole because people thought that Dungeons and Dragons was "Devil Worship". If you want a real laugh, check out a movie called Mazes and Monsters staring Tom Hanks. People actually thought this is what was happening to their children. So the game developers shied away from anything that could remotely give fuel to the fire.

I don't remember specifics, but that sounds about right that anything like necromancy would only be the enemy casters. Raising the dead is to much like demon worship, at least in some views.

I want to say that was actually more a restriction of the rules set way back then rather than a limitation of the computer game. But I could be wrong on that front. And you are talking about they Krynn setting in any event, so necromancy in that world is very frowned upon.

There's still loads of fun to be had there though, even if you can't play a necromancer.

If you want my personal opinion, I'd start off with the first game, 'Pool of Radiance' and play that before you branch off into the Krynn stuff. My personal favorite is the Secret of the Silverblades, but all three are loads of fun to play. Also, Menzoberranzan is a much different game. it isn't a 'Gold box' game at all to my knowledge.

Vallmyr

the_spyder said:

Way back then there was a very strong emphasis on making the games appeal to a more wholesome ethic (by their definition, if not ours). There was a heavy eye on the community as a whole because people thought that Dungeons and Dragons was "Devil Worship". If you want a real laugh, check out a movie called Mazes and Monsters staring Tom Hanks. People actually thought this is what was happening to their children. So the game developers shied away from anything that could remotely give fuel to the fire.

I don't remember specifics, but that sounds about right that anything like necromancy would only be the enemy casters. Raising the dead is to much like demon worship, at least in some views.

I want to say that was actually more a restriction of the rules set way back then rather than a limitation of the computer game. But I could be wrong on that front. And you are talking about they Krynn setting in any event, so necromancy in that world is very frowned upon.

There's still loads of fun to be had there though, even if you can't play a necromancer.

If you want my personal opinion, I'd start off with the first game, 'Pool of Radiance' and play that before you branch off into the Krynn stuff. My personal favorite is the Secret of the Silverblades, but all three are loads of fun to play. Also, Menzoberranzan is a much different game. it isn't a 'Gold box' game at all to my knowledge.

Yeah you're right XD I was thinking of another game that had Drow on the cover. My mistake.

Also, trying to get pool of radiance to work but it won't pick up my mouse for some reason. . .

Vallmyr

OHHH
You use Home, End, Page down, and Delete to navigate the menu!

That's odd but alright! I shall try Pool of Radiance tonight then!

Vallmyr

Btw, I plan on having demihumans (first time I've ever typed that term) in my party. Will the exp cap on them be detrimental?

the_spyder

It kind of depends. Certainly for PoR, you won't have any issues. Later on, you might encounter some, but if you read through the rules, you will see that each race has at least one class that allows significant advancement. So long as you don't gimp yourself by ignoring those rules, you should be OK.

I also remember that PoR only had basic classes like Fighter/Wizard/Cleric/Thief and no sub-classes. You might consider re-building your party when you progress to Curse of the Azure bonds, but for Silver Blades and Pools of Darkness you won't have that issue.

And the game you must be thinking of is Pools of darkness? It's the 4th in the Pool of Radiance series. You really want to progress through the whole thing first though.

And I personally loved how they dealt with the Mage/moon thing in the Krynn games, but it can take some getting used to.

Edit: corrected game name.

Vallmyr

Atm running into some technical issues at character creation with "Insert disk 3"

Unfortunately as I'm running a program with Dosbox there is no disk 3 >_>

TO GOOGLE I GO!

Also, I'll check out the manual once I get the technical stuff sorted and see about the different race/class exp caps.

I definitely hope the games are worth it

the_spyder

For me, they were absolutely worth it. I grew up with those games and spent MANY hours at them. I played them all, including the Into the Wilderness games and thoroughly enjoyed them. Before Baldur's gate, they were The best and only of their kind. And they even did an AOL online Neverwinter Nights game on the same engine.

If you have a problem with the graphics though, they can be a bit of a let down. Doesn't sound like that will be the issue, but it had to be said.

Sorry I can't help with the 'Disk 3' issue but I am sure that GOOGLE will find something.

Vallmyr

Looks like Thief characters level infinitely! Which is great because I planned on my gnome girl to be a thief.

Vallmyr

Alright, fixed the issue, made a character and started the game. Everything works! I have to leave for a few hours but when I get back I'll make my full party n_n

the_spyder

Yeah, thieves are pretty much all infinite. I want to say that if you want a Dwarf, a fighter is the way to go. If you want an Elf, Fighter/Mage or Mage/Thief. Half Elves probably Fighter/Mage/Thief. But these are all from memory so don't quote me on them.

Belanos

the_spyder said:

Also, Menzoberranzan is a much different game. it isn't a 'Gold box' game at all to my knowledge.

Neither are the Krynn games, that was a different series altogether. The Gold Box series was considered to be Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds and Secret of the Silver Blades, with Pool of Darkness added later on. I'd love to see Beamdog remake those, the first three at least were classic. I wasn't too crazy about the last one.

the_spyder

@Belanos - The Krynn games (Champions of Krynn, Death knights of Krynn, Dark Queen of Krynn) were also 'Gold Box games'. And the Into the Wilderness games were also Gold Box games. I know because I still have the gold boxes that they all came in.

Menzoberranzan was not a gold box game, it's true. Which was my comment. I did alter my original post because I was thinking that the "Drow" game he mentioned was 'Dark Queen of Krynn'. I was mistaken. It was 'Pools of Darkness'.

Belanos

the_spyder said:

The Krynn games (Champions of Krynn, Death knights of Krynn, Dark Queen of Krynn) were also 'Gold Box games'. And the Into the Wilderness games were also Gold Box games. I know because I still have the gold boxes that they all came in.

Yes, my mistake. I looked it up after I posted. There were three distinct series that were considered "Gold Box".

Vallmyr

This
This is a godsend!
http://www.weekendwastemonster.net/crpgs/pool/codewheel/poolwheel.html

The Code Wheel shenanigans was getting annoying until I found this

Vallmyr

Also

I can change my sprite's weapons/head/colors?

Oh no.
I'm going to be here for hours making and re-making my party until they look perfect.

I also found a save editor to import custom portraits which is kind of cool.

I think my first run of the game I'll keep it un-edited but afterwords I'll mod the hell out of it.

I always like my first run to be completely vanilla with no additions unless it's graphical stuff like for Morrowind or something.

Vallmyr

Looks like my normally elf char is going to be a human this time around. I play Elven Clerics but they aren't a thing and I value class over Race.

So far I have

Val'myr (I'll keep my Drow name >_> <_<): Male Human Cleric (According to the manual I do have necromancy!) Chaotic Neutral

Piro: Female Gnome Thief Chaotic Neutral
Kitze: Male Human Fighter (Normally a monk in other games but there is no monk so fighter it is!) Chaotic Good
Aiyumii: Female Human Fighter Neutral Good
Fae: Female Elf Mage/Thief Neutral Evil

Normally my last spot is Aira, a human paladin but. . . paladins don't really exist in Pool of Radiance.
I guess I'll do a second Cleric then?

So Aria: Female human Cleric Lawful Good.

Also, I love the way they handle rolling. In BG I keep Min-maxing stats but in this it's like NOPE! I think in BG/IWD I might start not altering stats once they've been rolled.

I prefer point buy, but when not used this no-changing roll style is the best!

It gave me insight into why they did stats the way they did in 2e. I've only played 3.5/Pathfinder/5th edition PnP and Point buy is infinitely better than rolling imo for those.

2e though? Rolling seems to be the way to go.

atcDave

I absolutely love the old Gold Box games. I would LOVE to see the EE versions...

One fun tid bit for anyone interested; there were also a couple "Buck Rogers" games using the same game engine. It's funny how much a Rocket Launcher is just like a Fireball!

the_spyder

I much prefer rolling over point buy. The point buy system seems to make everyone so generic and 'samey'. If you randomly roll, you end up with a range , yet all still within guidelines. People aren't cookie cutter copies with only minor variances in abilities.

As far as Cleric versus fighter, I'd recommend in Pool of Radiance that you go with 3 Fighters, 1 cleric, 1 thief and 1 mage if at all possible. What you have is OK, but you will really want that third front liner in PoR. You can recreate your party in Curse of Azure bonds, or simply swap out one or two characters. And Paladins ARE a thing in Curse.

atcDave

That's exactly what I do; any Paladin or Ranger I want I simply "recreate" in Curse and pretend they were that way all along.

Vallmyr

the_spyder said:

I much prefer rolling over point buy. The point buy system seems to make everyone so generic and 'samey'. If you randomly roll, you end up with a range , yet all still within guidelines. People aren't cookie cutter copies with only minor variances in abilities.

As far as Cleric versus fighter, I'd recommend in Pool of Radiance that you go with 3 Fighters, 1 cleric, 1 thief and 1 mage if at all possible. What you have is OK, but you will really want that third front liner in PoR. You can recreate your party in Curse of Azure bonds, or simply swap out one or two characters. And Paladins ARE a thing in Curse.

Oh nice! I guess I'll make Aria a fighter then and "Upgrade" her to a Paladin in the later games n_n

I've messed around a bit in game and got dunked by an army of skeletons since I decided to explore a bit too far out XD

So far though, this grid-like tactical combat is great. It's like a perfect blend of first person dungeon crawling with tactical combat thrown in

Oddly enough, at least from a gameplay standpoint, I like it way more than the RPG I'm currently playing, Dragon Age: Inquisition.

Without spoilers, do the stories hold up throughout the games?

atcDave

I think the story holds up pretty well across all nine games. A very brief run down

Pool of Radiance - The original and most basic. But a ton of fun.
Curse of the Azure Bonds - Mid-level play. Adds Paladins and Rangers.
Secret of the Silver Blades - Higher level. The most linear, but some fun tactical combat.
Pools of Darkness - Ridiculously high level. Extra planar, fate of the universe sort of stuff.

Champions of Krynn - Takes the game engine to the Dragonlance setting. Adds Knights of Solomnia as three paladin-like character classes. Adds some twists to the magic system too.
Death Knights of Krynn - Mid to upper levels.
Dark Queen of Krynn - Ridiculously high level. I think this may have been too ambitious, but it has its moments.

Gateway to the Savage Frontier - A new starting adventure. The Gold Box engine at full maturity.
Treasures of the Savage Frontier - mid to low upper level. Terrific final chapter for the Gold Box series.

Vallmyr

I'm guessing that's the order I should play them in as well?

Also, once I finish the first game, how would I go about transferring the characters? Would I just drag and drop the save folder/contents inside or?

Vallmyr

Ok, I take back what I said about modding.
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/jhirvonen/gbc/
Is WONDERFUL

Separate window for your mini-map, heal when resting (which was implemented in later games I think?), and you can have custom portraits and such! Even has HP bars on the top of the window n_n

Might be a bit cheat-y but it does make information for available.

Atm looking through the journal for the sign on the town hall ( I think it's the town hall).

the_spyder

What @atcDave listed was perfect. Really excellent break down of the games.

And yes, I would definitely plan on playing them in that order. While the three different sets are independent and you can't transfer between them, for continuity sake, I would keep them separate. For me personally, I had a hard time finishing both Pools of Darkness and Dark Queen of Krynn due to the extreme levels. Not to say that will be your experience, but just wanted to put that out there.

I will point out that there is another game that "sort of" fits in. It was a really throw away game called Hillsfar and 'Can' be played between PoR and Curse. You import your characters and what you do there does effect their advancement, but it really isn't worth your time. I mention it only in case you come across something that points you that direction. Don't bother.

The transfer mechanism, I believe is built into the second and subsequent games. You shouldn't have to move anything, I think there is a utility in game that does it for you.

One difference that you may have noticed, and I personally always thought this was a much better approach than in subsequent games, is that you can only level advance at certain locations. This to me more represents the original intent of the PnP game where you went and learned new skills from a mentor of sorts. With ease of use, later games just let you level up once you had the experience. In these games, you actually need to find a home base and THEN level up. I think it is a better system.

finally, once you finish obsessing about these games, I would strongly recommend that you look into the Eye of the Beholder series.

atcDave

I would agree with @the_spyder on all of that.

Pools of Darkness and Dark Queen of Krynn I only finished once; every other game got multiple play throughs with different parties.

The three series are all independent and if any one of them doesn't inspire you it has no bearing on the others.
The Savage Frontier games often get over looked because they came late when graphics and game design had sort of moved on; but I REALLY like them. They are the best this engine ever looked, and you'll actually be scrambling for resources and loot much deeper into the adventure than in any other AD&D game I can think of. I remember several times when I had multiple characters with enough experience to level up, but I couldn't afford to train them all! One time I sold a magic weapon I'd been using to get training! I think that's an awesome sort of strategic decision making that I've dealt with in PnP but never before or since in a CRPG.

Also, if you REALLY like the engine:

Buck Rogers: Countdown to Doomsday
Buck Rogers: Matrix Cubed

The Buck Rogers PnP game was TSR game that heavily borrowed from AD&D 2E; so SSI bought the license and used the same game engine. It really does work pretty well.

Vallmyr

So with this save editor I'm wondering if I should make an elf cleric for RP.

Should I just stick to the rules or bend them for RP?

the_spyder

I don't think it will change much if you do monkey around with race in that manner. Although I am not 100% sure on that point. I never edited the original game so I don't know what program issues you may encounter. I'd say probably you would be OK.

From a strictly RP perspective, considering the time and what you are doing, having a Drow (assuming that is what you do) will probably cause some RP issues. But hey, play how YOU have fun is always my motto.

Vallmyr

When I RP as Drow I usually make sure they have disguises and such so they're not murdered on sight XD

Also, did some research and it looks like as long as I turn the char back to human on level up I won't encounter any issues.

Vallmyr

Ok. Finally decided on a party that works for me.

Val'myr Half-Elf Cleric/Magic-User
Piro Gnome Thief
Kitze Human Fighter
Aiyumii Human Fighter
Fae Elf Thief/Magic-User
Aria Human Fighter (Turned into a Paladin later).

Took me all week-end to decide on a party comp and now I'm ready to finally actually start! XD

LadyRhian

Be aware, once you get to Secret of the Silver Blades, there is a Vault in town where your characters can stash their treasure. This carries over between games, so when you start a second game, you can outfit all your characters better than the stuff the townsfolk give you. Also beware of the maze between the town and the Well. You can get very seriously lost in that area very quickly. Look for a walkthrough online. You WILL appreciate it.