Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Gold Box Games question.

12346

Comments

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    I'd kind of lean the other direction. While I would agree that there was a marketing strategy behind selling cue books, that is a far stretch from them being designed to be "Needed" or even designed around them.

    I think that the hand holding that is done today by game developers towards the players as evidenced by such things as allowing characters to Identify or level up in dungeons has made players expect that level of support. Back when PoR came out, with the limited availability of such aids, we simply worked harder to solve issues that today are merely handed out on a platter. But then I rather suspect that it is like someone who drives a manual transmission telling someone who has only ever driven an automatic that the manual is better and more intuitive. It's merely experience.

    As far as coin system is concerned, @Vallmyr had the same question. The conversion is 5 gold = 1 platinum. I want to say it is 20 Copper to 1 gold but can’t remember exactly (it might be 10=1).

    Again, I understand your frustration with that system. I grew up playing PnP using it so it actually makes a lot more sense to me. I actually prefer it that way, but that's my own individual preference and nothing more.

    atcDavekcwise
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Sorry for the double post, but I got to thinking about the coin thing. The entire reason behind adventuring, well one reason anyway, is to collect wealth. In order to actually reward the adventurer, yet not have them suddenly and over night, become obscenely wealthy is to give a large amount of actual coin units that add up to a small amount of actual gain. So if you collect 10,000 copper it is the equivalent of 1,000 gold (or is it 500?). The perception is (from a marketing stand point) that 10K coins is A LOT when the reality is that it isn't that much. Spread that over several encounters and you are always getting a 'Healthy purse' while it not breaking your economy.

    Obviously Platinum works the opposite way. Given the relative weight of coin, carrying around 10k in any sort of coin is going to be cumbersome. But carrying around 500 platinum less so. And hence the tiered system is born.

    Where this has particular relevance in my brain is with a certain (and nameless) Persistent world that I played Neverwinter Nights 2 on. The Developers of the world were VERY concerned about the amount of coin that their players had and so they cut deeper and deeper AND DEEPER into the random loot table such that raiding a tomb of some 15th level or higher difficulty would often render the player something on the tune of 5,000 coins or less (usually less). Basically it wasn't worth the time in money.

    The reason this was is because even at 1st level you could get 5-10 GP per monster. They also severely reduced XP to slow advancements and thus prevent the server from having a glut of ultra high level adventurers. This meant that even with only a few coins per kill, a low level adventure could amass a decent amount of coin such that they had to stretch out the higher level amounts to almost nothing. The added bonus was that it was a drudge the entire time because you had to slog through endless adventures for tiny or non existent gains and still they had a problem.

    Since this is a game after all, the point is to reward the players for adventuring. However, in order to keep things middling to low level of power and finances, they cut deeply into one of the quintessential reward channels, that of money. If they had access to a tiered system such as Platinum > Gold > Silver > Copper, they could have started out rewarding low levels with copper in reasonable amounts and not having to worry about the mid and high levels becoming ultra rich.

    Still a better solution for that server would have been some form of "Living" economy, but that is a discussion for another time. In short, the 3-4 tiered coin system actually makes WAY more sense to me than what we have now and is yet another way that today's game coddles the players. nuff said.

    atcDavekcwise
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member, Moderator Posts: 13,174
    Yes, 5 gold= 1 platinum. And as for level limits, Demi-Humans (what they called the other races in 1e) did well as thieves, not so well as other classes. This was set up because humans were supposed to be the most numerous race, and they had to balance the other races in ways which would "gimp" them as opposed to humans, in the long run. They have tried to do this in other ways since then (Humans got a free feat in 3e, etc.) but pretty much dropped it and have made do with making the races more equal and less "gimped". It wasn't intended to be something to hurt other players, just to make playing humans the better, more viable choice in the long run. Because, according to lore, the other races were being outcompeted by humans in the "making kids and taking land because they need to expand" kind of way. Elf and Dwarf people don't have as many kids nor as often, and so, humans were expanding faster than the other races, who were more or less dying off.

    JuliusBorisovkcwise
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,879
    edited April 2015
    Another needless update....entered a stable, found gold, gems and experience!! Came upon a mass of Kobolds who got slaughtered by my archer and had the good sense to surrender when the tide turned on them. Magic bracers!!

    One way this is actually a little more forgiving than some more modern games is that your characters mostly enter the unconscious state instead of dying (somewhat like Neverwinter Nights 2). Small problem though. My pure magic user is getting automatically skipped every time her turn comes up in combat. At the moment she is all out of her darts, which is the only reason I can think of. Do you have to have a weapon equipped to get a character a turn?? Seems needlessly harsh on a caster character....

    Edit: She was stuck in quick combat, gonna avoid that at all costs from now on. I believe I have now cleared the top portion of the map. Plenty of money and a sack full of (supposedly) magic items. Will pick up tmw with a dash back to town and see what I've earned.

    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
    kcwise
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Keep an eye on that "unconscious" companion(s) situation. Once hit points drop below zero, your heroes will start 'Bleeding' to death at a rate of -1 HP per round. If you don't get to them in time and they hit -10, they will die. Also be aware that a party member can be rendered -10 or lower in a single hit, so don't count on this saving their lives every time.

    As for your wizard, that sounds like a glitch. Even unarmed every party member should get a turn in combat. If that persists, I'd suggest exiting and reloading to see if that solves the problem. Anyone else have that issue before?

    kcwise
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,879

    Keep an eye on that "unconscious" companion(s) situation. Once hit points drop below zero, your heroes will start 'Bleeding' to death at a rate of -1 HP per round. If you don't get to them in time and they hit -10, they will die. Also be aware that a party member can be rendered -10 or lower in a single hit, so don't count on this saving their lives every time.

    As for your wizard, that sounds like a glitch. Even unarmed every party member should get a turn in combat. If that persists, I'd suggest exiting and reloading to see if that solves the problem. Anyone else have that issue before?

    Yes, I'm assuming that is what the bandage option is for. As for the Wizard, I looked in the manual to see how to force the whole party out of quick combat (which was the oddest thing of pressing the space bar while moving any character). Anyway, it worked, as my Magic User was obviously stuck in quick mode, which I never plan on using.

    kcwise
  • PrrshaPrrsha Member Posts: 8
    I know this is asking a lot but can someone verify if animations of monsters play BEFORE battle instead of just a still image in Death Knights of Kyrnn? Maybe someone with an emulator can test the Amiga version please? I only get the animations when I try the demo, not an actual game. Any takers? If I can verify the bug is not on my end I can maybe get some of the older programmers out there that worked on them to perhaps fix them. The Fat Man gave me a list of contacts of people who worked on the series.

    kcwise
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member, Moderator Posts: 13,174
    In the original games they did move, right back up to the first game, Pool of Radiance.

    the_spyderkcwise
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Yes, the monsters do have animations in combat. As @LadyRhian indicates, all the way back to Pool of Radiance.

    kcwise
  • PrrshaPrrsha Member Posts: 8
    I've played them all on the Amiga and many for the pc and c64. They all had animations except for death knights of kyrnn but the problem for me seems to only be on the Amiga version. All I get using an emulator is a frozen picture then the battle begins. It was the same deal with my old Amiga 500 I used to own when I played them on floppies.

    kcwise
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member, Moderator Posts: 13,174
    Maybe it's the emulator that's the problem.

    kcwise
  • proccoprocco Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 912
    @atcDave so as not to derail a different thread, re:Dosbox. Try a program called D-Fend Reloaded. I am a DOS dummie (but learning, or relearning I should say) but D-Fend. Makes things super easy. You literally drop a zip file onto its interface and it sets up all the configurations automatically from its database. You then have all your games listed and can just click and play. I got like 15 games set up and ready to go in about 5 minutes.
    I've just started using an iPad/iPhone app called iDOS 2 (if you're interested grab it quick...that type of app tends to get pulled by Apple pretty quickly). I haven't loaded up any of the Gold Box games on it yet, but have Wasteland, a couple of Ultima games, and (astonishingly) Fallout running beautifully on my iPad.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
  • proccoprocco Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 912
    I just loaded up Pool of Radiance to my iPad. Haven't played it yet to see how well it works, but it at least loads up to the menu. I'm trying to learn how to use a hex editor to change all the code wheel answers to the same word so I don't have to look those up all the time, and can have the manuals in a pdf reader. Just need some sort of graph paper map maker app and I'll be set to finally play these suckers!
    @atcDave hope it works for you!

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,558
    A valuable resource for information about the Gold Box games: the FRUA hacking forum. Don't let the name mislead you--the interest is in editing the games, not actual hacking in its usual sense. I didn't realize that an update to Gold Box Explorer was available--I guess I know what I am doing later this afternoon....

    the_spyderVallmyr
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    Sooooo
    Today I started Champions of Krynn. Oh my. Mouse support is a wonderful feeling to have XD
    Also it seems to play less clunky. Either that or I'm just used to the control scheme now. I lost my old PoR save so I figured I'd try another in the series before re-tackling content I had already done. I reallllyyy like the Dragonlance setting and Kender are awesome.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    I personally like the Krynn setting better than even the Greyhawk setting (though only by the narrowest margin). I am jealous and want to play as well. Keep us updated.

    BTW, are you ever going to go back and play the PoR series? if so, what would you change from your initial run and why?

    Vallmyr
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    edited January 2016
    I do plan to yes.
    If I were to change things I'd rather play the rules straight with actual level caps instead of cheating and removing level caps. I might disagree with them but I feel they are integral to the experience of the original game. On re-runs I might cheat some things like illegal race/class combinations but for my first completed run I want it to be straight vanilla. I'd also change my party comp a little since it seems a multiclassed mage can cast in armor. I'd actually keep some guides open for spell descriptions and such. I'd also try to RP it a bit more and not game things like resting for a million years XD. I'd also have some higher strength characters so I could worry less about encumbrance when carrying loot.

    Small thing is I'd also like to use IRL dice to roll stats and then modify the characters to fit those IRL roles. 4d6 drop the lowest with two mulligans. While in Icewind Dale, NWN2 SoZ, and other dungeon crawler types I usually have characters in my head-canon that have preset stats for this I want to make completely randomized group of adventurers.

    I would also try to go with a theme with classes if my rolls permit. Like a party of holy warriors or a party of necromancers and such.

    Edit: I'm actually doing some of the above for this run. I made a test party to try things during my two hour break today between college classes. That's when I plan to play the game and such. I'm probably going to roll up my actual party right now. If I finish I'll post the group and their stats.

    Edit the second: I may RP one of my characters is a minstrel though even if their class says otherwise. I mean, it's not just bards that can play instruments~

    Edit the third: So the guide I'm reading about the races, their level caps, and stats talks assuming I'm going to have all my stats maxed out >_>
    While the information is useful I'm trying to go for random rolls and I assume I'm not going to have many maxed out stats. I know you need 18 wis and 18 int for each spellcaster to learn all spells I believe so that may be an issue with the random rolling. I suppose if I do roll any 18s I'll make those be my spellcasters XD

    Edit the fourth: Ok I think I may do a Baldur's Gate style stat exchange. I don't feel right with the idea of my mages not learning max level spells >_>

    Post edited by Vallmyr on
  • brunardobrunardo Member Posts: 502
    Im just about to do a menzo run - they really should make these games to EE's

    VallmyratcDave
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    @Vallmyr - I want to say that there is a pretty simple way to edit stats for your character if that is your wish. Like you, I have stats in mind for my individual characters in my head canon and like to stay fairly close to them. Not that they are Epicly powerful, quite the contrary. Just these are people to me rather than characters (yeah, put my analyst on danger money baby).

    I can't tell you how, but I think it is something as simple as editing the save game file. I am sure that a simple Google search will get you the information you need.

    Keep us up to date on your Krynn run. I love living vicariously through other forumites games.

    Vallmyr
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    I see at character creation there is a "modify character" button that lets me choose stats. I mayyy just go with my canon party though I'll adapt them to Dragonlance. Despite my adoration for Necromancers I don't play evil characters, and I can't anyway in this, so I'll make my morally ambiguous wizard a red mage and such.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,879
    brunardo said:

    Im just about to do a menzo run - they really should make these games to EE's

    The Ravenloft games and Menzoberranzan all have great atmosphere and maintain the character and feel of D&D just as well as the Infinity Engine or Gold Box games. The only problem with them is the engine is pretty damn bad. It isn't unplayable, but there is no way it can be considered anything but "choppy". I don't think I've ever landed an arrow hit in Strahd's Possession, but I'm sure that's more a bug than anything else. They'd be stone-cold classics like the others if they had better gameplay....

    VallmyratcDaveJuliusBorisov
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    BEHOLD THE FIRST OF MY CHAMPIONS OF KRYNN!
    Going with a completely new party. Inspired by my Faerun characters but different.

    Valian Starfire
    Male
    Silvanesti Elf
    Cleric of Sirrion/Red Mage
    Chaotic Neutral
    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 16
    Constitution: 8
    Intelligence: 18
    Wisdom: 18
    Charisma: 14

    Valian Starfire is a chaotic and destructive individual. Art is his prime motivation. Whether he's burning enemies to perfection or creating illusions of beauty he wants to spread his name and his art across Krynn.

    Milly Flowerhair
    Female
    Kender
    Cleric of Mishakal/Thief
    Neutral Good
    Strength: 12
    Dexterity: 19
    Constitution: 16
    Intelligence: 9
    Wisdom: 16
    Charisma: 18

    Milly Flowerhair is a well-meaning sort of girl. While a bit of a trickster she prides herself on her healing magic. She may pull pranks on people for fun but will most certainly go out of her way to help a person in need. Unlike most of her kind she does not take pleasure in stealing "for fun" as her kin put it.

    Sonnus Garth
    Male
    Hill Dwarf
    Fighter
    Lawful Good
    Strength: 18 (99)
    Dexterity: 17
    Constitution: 19
    Intelligence: 10
    Wisdom: 12
    Charisma: 8

    Sonnus Garth is a Dwarf from the Neidar tribe. He works as a bodyguard for caravans that promote commerce between Dwarves and other races. Sonnus is seldom to speak but is an excellent fighter.

    Aria Falirus
    Female
    Human
    Knight
    Lawful Good
    Strength: 18 (50)
    Dexterity: 15
    Constitution: 16
    Intelligence: 14
    Wisdom: 16
    Charisma: 15

    Aria Falirus is a Solamnic Knight. Despite being somewhat cold her leadership skills and strategic planning have given her fellow party members the edge they need to win. She is the twin sister of Wolf Falirus.

    Wolf Falirus
    Male
    Human
    Ranger
    Chaotic Good
    Stength: 15
    Dexterity: 18
    Constitution: 18
    Intelligence: 13
    Wisdom: 14
    Charisma: 11

    Wolf Falirus is a Ranger. He was always raised in Aria's shadow as she was the chosen child to become a Solamnic Knight. He sees her as his rival and attempts to out-do her whenever he can.

    Riki Lockwood
    Female
    Quelanesti Elf
    Fighter/White Mage/Thief
    Neutral Good
    Strength: 14
    Dexterity: 19
    Constitution: 11
    Intelligence: 18
    Wisdom: 8
    Charisma: 16

    Riki Lockwood is a Bard and storyteller. She practices traditional Elven fighting styles and the white magic of the Elves. She and Valian disagree due to opposing ideals on magic.

    I kind of made up these little bios on the spot so they are not as detailed as my normal characters. I used a Dragonlance name generator to help inspire names. If you guys have any suggestions I can alter it and such though once I get deep into the adventure I imagine it will be more difficult to alter stuff.

    JuliusBorisov
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    The battles in these games are so tough but exciting. Sleep is the best spell at the moment. I fought off the Draconians attacking the caravan and then took down some Hobgoblins that were preventing Entrance to Throtl, I believe that was the town name.

    typo_tilly
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    As you level up you may start regretting the multi-classing of your clerics and wizards. The old school 2nd edition development was not kind to having more than one class, particularly on casters. And since you already have a Kender in your group, making Riki a thief on top of that probably is going to be a complete waste.

    3rd edition "Fixed" that (always assuming that you are of a mind to think that it was broken). 2nd edition not so much.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    Oh, I thought it was strong to multiclass with level caps so when one class stops progressing the others do D:

    Should I rebuild with mostly single classes?

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 5,879

    As you level up you may start regretting the multi-classing of your clerics and wizards. The old school 2nd edition development was not kind to having more than one class, particularly on casters. And since you already have a Kender in your group, making Riki a thief on top of that probably is going to be a complete waste.

    3rd edition "Fixed" that (always assuming that you are of a mind to think that it was broken). 2nd edition not so much.

    I was under the impression that the Gold Box games were all First Edition....have I been mistaken??

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    They're sort of in between. 2E came out while the Gold Box games were being made; I don't recall exactly, but maybe about when the 3rd or 4th game came out? So some tweaks were made to the later games to make them a little more 2E-like (like how some 3E "features" were added late to BG2.

    Also remember 1E and 2E are more similar than other editions and are collectively referred to as "AD&D". I would usually say AD&D is the best descriptor for Gold Box.

    Mathsorcererthe_spyder
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    Vallmyr said:

    Oh, I thought it was strong to multiclass with level caps so when one class stops progressing the others do D:

    Should I rebuild with mostly single classes?

    Yes, and no. While it is true that the Gold box games does enforce the racial level caps, and that will in some cases cause non-humans to be prohibited beyond a certain level, it also slows down the level advancement.

    The early versions of the game were primarily role based classes. Each class had a specific function that it fulfilled. So your basic party was primarily centered around the combination of 1 magic user, 1 cleric, 1 thief and 2-3 tanks. Not that you couldn't survive without it, just that this was the most well rounded.

    Also, Experience and level advancement for a 6 person party (particularly in CRPGs) was usually centered around primarily single class characters such that at a given point your single class characters would have access to certain abilities and thus up to certain challenges. If you made a smaller party, you could get away with multi-class characters because you advanced more quickly and had the same abilities at appropriate levels.

    There are synergies for multi-class characters though. A Magic-user/thief works because thieves advance quicker than everyone else and so they keep relatively paced with the rest of the group. Your magic-user will be a bit lower, but then you probably have a primary single class magic-user anyway so you are simply getting EXTRA casting rather than relying on the lower level caster exclusively.

    Figher/Magic-users also make a deadly combination as well, but more as a buffed combatant than an actual tactical caster. Again, this is a good combination if you have a separate primary caster in tow. They tend to be more squishy, having fewer hit points but will often hit as hard or harder than your traditional tanks, and they have spell casting to supplement when they are not tanking. Again, you 'Can' use the split class to provide more traditional control but optimally you want this to be more of a buffed tank.

    Thieves, being one of my favorite classes, really only serve a purpose if they are the sole thief in the party. Having more than one really cuts down on just about every other role. Either you won't have enough tanking ability or you have gimped another class by multi-classing and to very little benefit. They don't make great combatants even with back stab (the exception being Fighter/thieves) and they usually have enough points to get the type of thief you need without needing two.

    And having a triple class F/M/T is problematic at best unless you have a smaller party. Yes, you now have a character that can specialize in a weapon and sneak attack while invisible, but they are usually 2-4 levels below the rest. Again, if you are relying upon this as being your primary tank or Magic user, you are in big trouble unless you have a smaller party. And although the thief abilities will be comparable (usually 1-2 levels behind everyone else), you are so very much better having a single class thief or possibly a multi with only one other class. As a side note, cleric/thief is a good combination (as is figher/thief) because both cleric and fighter are relatively quick advancement.

    Not to say that the party you listed "Can't" work, merely that you may make things tougher for yourself than you need.

    atcDave
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,326
    Would altering the party to
    Red Mage
    Cleric of Mishakal/Thief
    Fighter
    Knight
    Ranger
    Fighter/White Mage work?

    Fighter, Knight, and Fighter/White Mage as a front line with my Cleric/thief as a backup. Ranger, Cleric/Thief with a Hoopak, Red mage providing ranged damage and support in the backline? I also noticed you can cast in armor as a multiclass so my fighter/white mage could still cast and be pretty tanky.

    With the lack of necromancy spells accessed to players I really have no need to multi-class Cleric/Mage in an attempt to gain all Necromancy spells. I also know knights gain Cleric spells later as I think they are the paladin-equivalent of Krynn even though I think the second game onward has Paladins and Knights.

Sign In or Register to comment.