The Archer Dilemma
johntyl
Member Posts: 397
Say your Ranger kit - Archer has already maxed out all his archery skills (GM in bow, max pip): he's a god with the bow basically.
Would you switch him to a melee weapon (which he has only a one slot proficiency in) during close encounters so as to negate the close range penalty, or would you have him move away and shoot from afar? What about for creatures with high resistance to piercing and/or missile damage like skeletons and such: do you switch to a blunt weapon or continue barraging them with arrows (albeit with penalty to damage)?
The reason I'm asking this because unlike other characters/kits who can reach a high proficiency with a bow as well, the Archer kit primarily favours the use of the bow. So I'm wondering if anyone has tested this or has knowledge about this. Thanks!
Would you switch him to a melee weapon (which he has only a one slot proficiency in) during close encounters so as to negate the close range penalty, or would you have him move away and shoot from afar? What about for creatures with high resistance to piercing and/or missile damage like skeletons and such: do you switch to a blunt weapon or continue barraging them with arrows (albeit with penalty to damage)?
The reason I'm asking this because unlike other characters/kits who can reach a high proficiency with a bow as well, the Archer kit primarily favours the use of the bow. So I'm wondering if anyone has tested this or has knowledge about this. Thanks!
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Shortbow*****
Crossbow*****
Two Weapon Fighting**
1 handed blunt weapon* (mace, hammer or club assuming the best flails are being used by another party member)
Staff* (for staff of the ram + whirlwind attack)
Two handed weapon style*
An Archer dual wielding Hammers (or something) is only +1 att, +2 dam and +1/2 APR behind other warrior types so not missing a whole lot really.
Imagine, let's say, Kivan as an Archer: Dual wielding two normal long swords at level 9 , with 2 pps in two weapon :
He would have 3 attacks per round, his thac0 would be 9/11 , causing 4-10 damage , not counting magical bonuses to attack and damage he'd have if these swords were magical.
In conclusion, archers can fight in close combat if necessary.
I just like my bonuses if I'm going to primarily fight, but in this case, it's like rolling with a Blade without its benefits. In addition, you can't quickly switch over to two-weapon if an enemy closes the distance without opening your inventory.
I think it's a terrible idea to dual-wield an archer as a base form of combat (because there are *much* better alternatives and it defeats the purpose of the archer's perks) but it's cumbersome to have to switch to melee (since there's no quick and easy way to do it without opening your inventory). The best bet is to treat it as a last resort and avoid having to do it as much as possible in the first place (by basically throwing other fighters at your enemies while you stay in safe range with the bow).
Every now and then you'll find an enemy who's immune to your arrows, or something will get past your frontliner(s) and attack your archer. That's when you pull out a sword out on the sorry bastard(s).
I choose Single Weapon Style and one-handed weapons over dual-wielding because I don't like having to go to the inventory in the middle to combat to switch back and forth between ranged and off-hand weapons. I also prefer the -1 AC bonus over the extra attack.
No, an Archer doesn't hit as often and/or as hard as a dedicated frontliner. However, as other people have put it, he/she's still a warrior with decent THAC0 and (possibly) exceptional STR. If you can make a decent supporting melee fighter out of a Cleric or a Swashbuckler or a Blade, of course you can do that with a Ranger whose only offensive drawback is that he/she misses specialization.
Archers are awesome, definitely one of my favorite kits. They are also natural scouts (not going beyond studded leather and all), which means I can focus on maxing out other skills on my Thief (this works for me because I don't use backstabbing a lot).
I just rolled a 97 on my Archer last night after 2 hours of rerolling and I am pretty happy with him. Regarding my Archer's pips, I do know that the best bows in BG2EE are crossbows and shortbows, but I heard that in BGEE, the best bow is a longbow, so I actually choose upon character creation:
longbow** (because I figure I could always max out crossbows and shortbows in future)
long sword* (my character is an elf and has a natural inclination with long sword)
single weapon proficiency* (for the increased AC at the beginning)
Am I heading in the wrong direction considering I want to go over to BG2EE?
With my current pip, will I be able to GM both shortbow and crossbow in BG2EE?
thanks!
After completing gm in longbows, you will have 8 points left to spend till the end of bg2, so gm in both would be hard unless you gave up gm in longbows. Although I do see the fun in being able to handle a lot of ranged weapons, it is certainly not required.
In bg2 ranged begins it's decline and there is a huge difference between the best available shortbows and the best available longbows. Crossbow becomes an important utility weapon due to the unique uses of the Firetooth bow (which you can buy out of the gate).
Longsword missed the point of a melee weapon for an archer - you want blunt as the whole point is to be able to hurt enemies who are resistant to piercing. Any blunt weapon will do but if you prefer not to change weapons in the inventory screen then hands down I would go for 1 in staff and 1 in two handed weapon style. Very strong staves available in both games and you can stand behind your tanks and swing against enemies as needed.
That said, it's a game and do what is most fun for you but just consider that the unique weapons that will change the game don't come until bg2 and don't come in the longbow variety.
The practical difference lies, however, in the fact that you can get a good(the best?) longbow a lot earlier, especially if you decide to explore the whole available map before advancing the main story.
So, "longbow in BG:EE and short bows/crossbows in BG2:EE"? Well, it's still not clear. People often say that "until you get the Gesen, you should stick with Longbows, because they are better", but they forget about the Tugian Bow. This little bow is a beast(watch out for your arrows, though, as they tend to... magically disappear
Sadly, there isn't much practical(RP is another story) sense in using Longbows in BG:EE and BG2:EE both. You can get a Short bow +1 as early(and cheaply) and it will work adequately until you get the +2. I'd even say start with Crossbows, save money for the Light Crossbow of Speed(or whatever it's called right now) and start to put pips into Short bows later. You'll get the best for your buck in both BG:EE and BG2:EE(Light Crossbow of Speed, Firetooth and Gesen).
The "Longbows and Short bows" split is stupid to begin with, by the way, is there a mod to combine them back into the "Bows" category?
For shortbow users there's the Gesen Bow, which is +4 and requires no ammunition. BG2 Tweaks* has a component which restores the original BG1 Proficiency system.
It can make the game easier because spending one pip makes you proficient (or better) with 2 or 3 weapons at the same time, but even so I still find that system to be much more sensible than the one currently in use.
* don't be fooled by the name, it's totally compatible with BG:EE
Throwing axes fall into "Axes" category. However, if you know how to handle an axe, it doesn't automatically mean you can masterfully throw it. Just an example.
I don't think you can apply that effect to Bows only without some heavy editing of that mod component.
I guess you could always use EEKeeper to give yourself an extra pip to cover both Bows whenever you gain a proficiency point. But that's not a very elegant solution, not one I would go for, anyway.
If you can stand behind your tanks to swing against enemies with your staff, would you rather not use a bow then since you have a tank to create distance between the Archer and enemy? I agree with you that blunt weapons should be used against enemies like skeleton and such, but what about normal enemies? I am more curious though, in the scenario in which you have no choice but to use melee to negate the close range penalty, which weapon and style would you use if you are an elf (with a bonus to longsword)?
There are a limited number of "Best Weapons" and you can have as many as six people in your party. Many NPCs are restricted to slings or slings and darts (Clerics and Mages for example). Not many NPCs come with crossbow proficiencies so you're unlikely to "steal" it from an NPC that can use it. And one of the two best ranged weapons in the next game is a crossbow.
The light crossbow of speed may not be the absolute best of all ranged weapons in BG1, but crossbows as a group have a number of advantages if you take a wider view and the LCoS is certainly a powerful weapon.
As someone who doesn't mind inventory swapping on the rare occasions that a melee weapon is required I would dual wield the best available blunt weapon class.
In BG1 this might be Morningstar assuming that Stupifier and Ashideena go to another character.
In BG2 it would be fine to continue with Flails (The Sleeper and Wyverns Tail). Club can work too (which gives a +3 option in SoA). A pip in Staff when available too for a +4 weapon (Staff of Rynn) or just to use Staff of the Ram when WA becomes available (Two Handed Weapon Style when HLAs are available).
If you don't like inventory management then just stuck with staff. Staff of Striking is the most damaging melee weapon in BG1 for the rare times that a melee weapon is needed.
The same applies to many other of BG2's odd weapon splits. You can hit an opponent with a mace but not a club? A shortsword, but not a dagger? Any way, I don't want to take the thread off-topic, but the answer to your question is yes.
To be pedantic, we are talking about warriors here immersed in an ever-present encroaching danger where every inch of skill in your weaponry matters. Difference between a short and long bow? The elasticity of the bowstring, the length and recoil of the bow, et cetera you get my flow, perhaps the culmination of all these little things and nuances matter when you have to put an arrow right into the exposed gap between the two impenetrable scales of a red dragon.
An example would be helpful:
There are a number of bastard swords with extremely focused uses. Not enough to make bastard swords a good choice on their own but without them you can find yourself having a harder time on what might be the hardest fight in the game. Technically a Fighter Class has good enough THAC0 to just pick it up and smack people with it, but in the original game that didn't much matter because iirc Longswords, Bastard Swords, and Two Handed Swords were all in the same proficiency and most of your fighting characters would have had at least a couple pips in using those.
Currently I sometimes add Bastard Sword Proficiency to characters with Longsword Proficiency with EE Keeper just to balance it out a little as the original game had intended.