Need some advice on a IWDEE party

Terwox

So, I've been racking my brain trying to make heads or tails off what little I remember off IWD. And quite frankly, I have a feeling what little I do remember is likely no longer true in the Enhanced Edition. So I'm looking for some advice on how to make the current work in progress party work. Keep in mind I'm not looking for the ultimate powergame party. Nor am I the biggest fan off multiclassing, beyond a few exceptions. From what little I recall in the old IWD people would recommend going with all your party being triple multiclass (5 F/M/C and a F/M/T if I recall). But that's just not what I'm looking for.

Keep in mind the following party information is work in progress, and likely to contain errors due to me remembering wrong, not remembering at all, and/or lack off knowledge about the Enhanced Edition changes. A note on the stats below, these are example stats. I tend to reroll like a madman til I get something around 85-90 in total on the roll.

Basic premise off the party. 2 melee character 4 ranged/casters. Between them it should cover my bases as much as possible. With at least 1 tank, 1 party healer/buffer, 1 rogue for all thiefy goodness, and at least one pure spellcaster.

Not entirely sure how well this will work as a damage dealer, so current thinking is this will be the party tank/face.
Race: Human
Class: Cavalier
Alignment: Lawful Good

Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 3
Wis: 15
Cha: 18

Weapon Proficiencies:
Long Sword/Sword and shield 2


This one is abit up in the air. What class I end up choosing will depend a bit on what class I end up choosing as well. Dwarves do get some nice bonuses besides that extra con. But if I want something that hits like a truck with a big word, then it seems one can't go wrong with a half-Orc. Current thinking is that this character can fullfill a few roles. Tank, either main or off-tank. All out damage dealer. Or a mix between the two. Another alternative is to use the spells from the cleric half for buffing. Currently leaning towards Fighter/Cleric melee fighter with cleric buffing spells.
Race: Half-Orc or Dwarf
Class: Fighter/Cleric(multi-class) or Barbarian, Berserker, or Dwarven Defender,
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Str: 18 or 19
Dex: 17 or 18
Con: 18 or 19
Int: dump
Wis: dump, 18 if fighter/cleric
Cha: dump

Weapon Proficiencies:
Two handed sword/Two handed weapon style 2, Warhammer, Mace, or Flail/sword and shield 2.

Starting spells (If Fighter/Cleric):
Armor of Faith, Blessing, Cure Light Wounds


Pretty simple this one, all out pew pew with a bow. Not sure about the favored enemy though. Don't recall if you only get one or multiple favored enemies as you gain levels. Nor do I recall which favored enemy(ies) you get the most milge out off.
Race: Elf
Class: Archer
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Str: 18
Dex: 19
Con: 17
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 10

Weapon Proficiencies:
Longbow/crosbow 2

Favored enemy: Orc


This would be the group's healer, could possibly also serve as melee support. I'm not entirely dead set on this character. Since if the 2nd melee character ends up with Fighter/Cleric, that opens up other options for this one. Also considering Druid or Fighter/Druid as an option. But still unsure.
Race: Human or Half-Elf
Class: Cleric or Fighter/Cleric (Multi-Class), Druid or Fighter/Druid
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Str: 18
Dex: 18
Con: 18
Int: 8
Wis: 18
Cha: 5

Weapon Proficiencies:
Warhammer/Sword and Shield 2

Starting spells:
Armor of Faith, Blessing, Cure Light Wounds


The groups Thief, with some additional firepower in the form off spells. Current thinking is mostly crowd control and debuff spells. With some buffs and damage spells thrown in.
Race: Gnome
Class: Thief/Illusionist (Multi-Class)
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Str: 13
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 19
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Weapon Proficiencies:
Shortbow/Sling 1, All in Find Traps

Starting spells:
Chromatic Orb, Reflective Image, Sleep


This character's job is to fling death in the direction off the enemy. Although since its a sorcerer, it hopefully will be very flexible with its spells. And I can't for the life off me remember if it used charisma instead off int. Will most likely be a bard due to good suggestions.
Race: Hal-Elf
Class: Bard or Sorcerer
Alignment: Neutral Good or Chaotic Good

Str: 9
Dex: 18
Con: 16
Int: 18
Wis: 10
Cha: 18

Weapon Proficiencies:
Shortbow/Sling 1, Sling 1

Starting Spells (if Sorcerer):
Magic Missile, Sleep

That sums up the lvl 1 party I'm currently considering putting together. I was considering a bard in there somewhere. But I just don't know were it would fit, and who it could replace. Anyway, any advice or suggestions anyone have would be appreciated.

JuliusBorisov

So, you want to take a Cavalier, a Fighter/Cleric (or a Barbarian, a Berserker, a Dwarven Defender), an Archer, a Fighter/Cleric, a Thief/Illusionist and a Sorcerer.

This party looks fine and you'll do good.

There're nice druidic spells in IWDEE, so you can take a multiclass Fighter/Druid as a forth party member. you can even make a singleclass druid and choose a kit: a Totemic Druid and an Avenger are awesome in IWDEE.

As for the bard, I find it somewhat unnatural to make a party for IWD without one. You have many heavy damage dealers in the party: a Cavalier, a Fighter/Cleric, an Archer and somebody else. All their effectiveness can be greatly improved by a bard song. Take a Skald instead of a Sorcerer - it would be useful.

As for the divine spells, you Thief/Illusionist and a Bard would be enough in this context.

Terwox

First, thanks for the suggestions. ^^

Something I should have mentioned before is that I have never played a bard in any off the infinity engine games. So it would be something rather foreign to me. It does seem like an interesting class regardless.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess a bard would want to max out charisma and dexterity. As well a 16 constitution. (If I recall only fighter/barbarian/paladin benefits from a con over 16.) Provided the stats rerolls give me enough total points to play around with. I think I may just do as you suggest, and replace the sorcerer with a Skald. As for weapons on the skald, shortbow or crossbows?

As for druid, unless you count Jaheira in BG, then I've not played them either. And I can't recall from the top off my head what stat they get their spells from. Nor how they would benefit from high strenght. Drawing abit off a blank on what race to pick for it as well at the moment. Its an interesting suggestion though. Especially if I go with a Fighter/Cleric for the 2nd melee. I'm assuming between a melee focused Fighter/Cleric and a more ranged and spell focused (Fighter/)Druid I would have enough healing and buffing spells between them.

Another thing that came to mind, is that with two characters with high charisma, I would have more options for party leader/face.

Bejogo

There's a strong argument for the default bard in IWD, because you get War Chant of Sith at level 11. At this point, all of your healing needs are taken care of, freeing up your clerics' spell slots for support or offensive spells. Of course, the Skald never outlives her usefulness either.

Have you considered taking humans and dual-classing your second fighter and thief? The early game is very tough on spellcasters; wizards spend most of their time hiding behind rocks or missing with slings and clerics are basically ersatz fighters. Being able to plough through these deadweight levels later on is a boon, though you will have to play more conservatively until your characters regain their lost levels.

JuliusBorisov

The weapon for your bard doesn't matter much because your bard should basically sing all the time. And when she doesn't sing, let her cast a spell or two. If choosing between shortbows and crossbows I'd say shortbows because there're many of them in the game.

You should definitely try a druid in IWD. The druidic spells in this game are much more fun than they are in BG.

As for the stats, you decide whether you make min-maxed characters or not. I would put max DEX for both your bard and your druid. If it's a fighter/druid, you need also STR and CON.

A bard needs good INT in order to successfully scribe scrolls (you can further enhance it with potions) and a druid needs WIS for bonus spells.

You might have a look at the game manuals: http://www.icewinddale.com/#manuals

Terwox

@Bejogo Last time I did Dual classing was back in BGEE. Although that game caps out on levels much quicker than IWDEE does. If I recall correctly. From what I remember from back in the old IWD days, dual classing usually meant alot off grinding to get back to the level where you'd regain your initial class's abilities. Possibly requiring more than 1 playthrough for it to reach its full potential. Unless you're suggesting dualing over to the 2nd class at an earlier level. Stats would remain the same in both cases if I remember. Since I think they meet the dual class stat requirements.

Main reason I went Multi-Class was to avoid that grind, although if I recall multi's level up slower?

As for the heavy spellcaster presence, I do have the flexibility on my 2nd melee character to go with a Barbarian, Berserker, or Dwarven Defender. Instead off a Fighter/Cleric, although it will have max str to allow it to be (hopefully) good in melee. Each off the alternatives can add some more non caster dependent dps to the party though. Alongside the Cavalier and Archer, and with a little help from the Thief/Illusionist's shortbow. And since I've decided to try the bard instead off a sorcerer, the bard would be providing the song buff for the rest off the party most off the time. Which would leave the "healer" Fighter/Cleric's the only pure "spellcaster". With some support spells from the other characters with a class that can provide spells. Hopefully my rambling made sense enough.


@bengoshi Well if the weapon doesn't matter that much I'll just stick with starting it out with shortbow and sling at 1. Give it some options, although by the sound off it, I will rarely use whatever weapon I choose for it. Guessing str and con isn't all that important for the bard since it isn't supposed to be standing in the think off things and getting slapped around. Nor slapping back in melee. Which would leave me with more room to put points into dex/int/cha. I might avoid the druid altogether this first time around. Since I'm not sure how learning two different classes at once will play out. But as I said before, the more I look at it the more interesting it seems. It depends though, if it turns out the bard is easy peasy to learn. Then putting in Druid or Fighter/Druid won't be as much a hassle as I fear.



Lastly, but certainly not least, thanks for your suggestions.

Also going to edit the Original post to reflect the updated version off the party.

Terwox

Oh one thing that completely slipped my mind. Weapon selection for the 2nd melee character. Especially if I go for the Fighter/Cleric, since the others are more straight forward. If I recall Morning stars have the highest damage dice, with Mace and Flail in the middle and Warhammer the lowest. So if I go this route on the melee character, would you recommend 2 points in Morningstar/Flail over Mace or Warhammer? Or does the weapons balance out in the end when you start picking up the really good ones?

Bejogo

Apologies @Terwox, I should have been clearer. Yes, I am talking about dualing at lower levels; specifically, a fhief 5 or 6 > mage (to have enough thief points for all of the game's locks and traps) and berserker 7 > cleric. Though if I'm not mistaken, IWD lets you continue putting pips in weapons all the way up to 5 for dual-class fighters, so even a berserker 2 > cleric would be viable.

I think, though, that the experience cap is much higher for multi-class characters, so if you are planning multiple playthroughs, multi-class characters will become considerably more powerful. My suggestion was just for a single playthrough.

Terwox

@Bejogo I had a feeling you were going for that, since from what I've read and remember. Dualing at high level means you have alot off catching up to do before you get your stuff back from the first class. So the Idea is to stay with berserker, to borrow your example, until you get grand master in my choosen weapon. Then switch cleric? And for the Thief/Mage. Stick with Thief til I hit 100? in find traps and open locks?

Also, would you suggest this for the "Healer" Fighter/Cleric or the "Melee" Fighter/Cleric. If the "healer", would you suggest switching the "Melee" one to a Barbarian, Berserker, or Dwarven Defender. Or go with the dual approach for both Fighter/Clerics?

My current plan is to play through IWD and the expansion once. Then if I meet the level requirement for HoF mode. Try the game again on that. If I still lack levels I might export the characters and import them back in for a 2nd partial or full run. Although it is possible I become burned out on the game by the time I beat IWD and the expeansion once.

And thanks for the clarification/suggestion.

Bejogo

Well, if I'm right about IWDEE using true grandmastery, then you needn't stick with Berserker until you get the full five pips, as you'll be able to continue putting them into your chosen weapon once you get your warrior levels back. You'll need a replacement weapon in the interim though, because you'll lose your pips as well as your warrior abilities while you are dual-classing. In addition, you'll waste any pips you put in the same slot before your levels return.

Level 7 is a popular break point because of the extra half attack (level 8 for the extra use of berserk and level 9 for the extra proficiency point and full d10 HP), but you could theoretically dual a fighter at any time and still be able to get grandmastery. IF I am correct.

As for which cleric, that's a tricky one. Your multi-class would eventually get better THAC0 progression and an extra full attack from hitting level 13, but won't be able to reach grandmastery, and won't be able to use the berserker class ability. Meanwhile, they will eventually be surpassed by the dual-class cleric in terms of spellcasting ability, so they're not the best choice for a support role.

If you go with the dual approach for both, though, make sure that you dual them at different times, so you minimise the overlap.

For instance:

Fighter A duals at level 2 (2,000 XP) and gets his abilities back after 5,000 XP (Fighter 2/Cleric 3)
Fighter B duals at level 3 (4,000 XP) and gets his abilities back after 10,000 XP (Fighter 3/Cleric 4)

This way, you only have two underpowered characters for 6,000 XP worth of game (assuming a full party).

Something else that has just occurred to me: consider a basic fighter, rather than a berserker, for your support cleric. Berserkers can't specialise in ranged weapons, which is what a support cleric should be using most of the time.

Terwox

Reminds me of how dual classing worked in BGEE. Well, I'll keep reading up on it. Or I could just start a game on story mode so I can quickly breeze through the levels and see what happens on subsequent levels after I hit the mark in your example. Although to be honest. The more I think off running 2 dual class Fighter/Clerics. Or just the support fighter/cleric for that matter. The more I worry about that initial leveling before it gets the cleric levels. Since I'll be without healing spells for that duration. Although I suppose that the more raw firepower I can bring to bear on my targets, the less my party will need that healing for that duration. Especially if I play it smart. Although, wonder if Cavaliers start with lay on hands or a cure spell early on.

Worst case scenario the multi-class option(s) are still viable. As are the Barbarian or Berserker instead off the melee Fighter/Cleric.

At any rate, something for me to read up on and find out. Again, thanks for the help.

Terwox

@Bejogo I did a quick one man party on story mode to test out how proficient a dual class fighter/cleric could become in a weapon. Started as a 18/18/18/10/18/4 Fighter with two pips in Morningstar/Flail, got it to lvl 2 and dual classed over to Cleric. At F2/C3 I got my fighter proficiencies back. And at either F2/C4 or F2/C5, my scatterbrain can't remember which atm, I got another proficiency point to add. Which I used to add the third pip to Morningstar/Flail. Ended the test at F2/C6, since that level didn't give me another point to spend. And I didn't want to go too far into the story beyond the first area after you leave for the "expedition". So in short, you were right about the proficiencies.

So I think I will dual class the support cleric. Make it abit beefier and get it high up there with the pips in sling. From what I recall sling damage is affected by strength too. So that could make the pebblethrower into something not entirely useless when its not throwing spells. And hopefully with enough health/defenses to survive being engaged in melee if shit hits the fan.

The question now becomes how far I am willing to push my party without a support/healer cleric. The Paladin's Lay on hands and if I go with the fighter/cleric multi-class for my 2nd melee character could alleviate that problem. But if I recall, you mostly run into goblins and orcs in the beginning. And they're not the biggest threat. Might have to save scum abit until I get the cleric levels going. Eh, time will tell

Bejogo

Great stuff, glad to know I wasn't off the mark with the proficiencies.

What you're planning sounds like a solid build. A cleric with a few levels of fighter is always more powerful than a straight cleric, and even if you dual at second level you can still become the devil with a sling. I think you're right about Lay on Hands being enough for the early levels; at this stage your cleric would only have one or two heals saved anyway, and the earliest enemies are not all that fearsome.

I'm glad I could be of some assistance. All the best