Watcher's Keep, level 3 (maze) kicks like a mule

GreenWarlock

I had never beaten the demon at the end of level 2 before (in a decade of playing, on and off) so level 3 has been quite an eye opener. Luckily I'm not playing no-reload, and gave up on minimal a while back

My party is seriously overpowered, but underfunded. PC is a cleric -> mage dual at 11, now 16th with 8th level spells. Minsc kicks serious butt with the upgraded Mace of Disruption (a pleasant surprise for me) and already has his first HLA. Anomen just turns 21st level, one short of HLA, and has 4 pips in his hammer of thunderbolts, near is now just 10k short of casting her first 9th level spell (if she finds one), Jan is a little further behind, and Haer'Dalis is the run of my litter at 19th - no bad for a party that has not yet sailed for Spellhold.

The first level of the keep was handled earlier in chapter 3, when I got fed up micromanaging ammunition so raided for containers, and the case/quiver of plenty. Level 2 I picked up at the end of chapter 3, and while a couple of fights packed a big punch, had no real trouble clearing the level. Lured on by rumors of a stat-boosting machine in the basement, I jumped a little too lightly into level 3. It is brutal.

I am getting mugged by large groups of monsters, and frequently cannot kill any, even if I focus all party firepower on a single target. And when I say firepower, I had a fun wildsurge that gave everyone 18 minute meteors. Nope, even the whole party pelting from range with 5 APR could not take down a single target before they closed range and brutalized us.

It also seem every room is either a dead magic or a wild magic zone, that the foes are well adjusted to. Given I have a caster heavy party, they are wiping me out too.

I finally admitted defeat and made the mistake of trying to run for the exit - and now find my quick save slot in the room at the end of the level with a gambling Cambion. First thing, Jan downed some potions of master thievery (we had only 3) and went to town, but apparently we can no longer pick a deck of many things out of a pocket, so I would have to get that the hard way (SO not happening!) I don't have the scepter pieces so there is no point initiating this encounter, but when I leave through the portal I came in by it takes me back to the previous level, full of wraiths that are not undead, and nasty traps, and sprinting across the room for the other exit seems to not be an option either. This is where I am stuck, trying to destroy even a single wraith to make progress - figuring I would hop back and forth between maps, destroying one at a time until the thread dropped enough to make progress.

All I want to do now is escape the maze and sail to Spellhold, if I can! I love it when a game punishes me for over-reaching, power word reload is not always the answer you think it is!

Yannir

In that wraithroom, just kill the big bad one, the others will then leave. Try Tenser's Transformation, if you have it on any of those casters. Other transformations might also do the trick. Triggers and Sequencers will also work normally. Just go for direct damage instead of persistent effects. Demons don't like cold btw. Items also work normally. I think I summoned like 10 elementals with the Staff of Fire to clear 1 of those rooms.

There are a few zones where magic works normally, you want to use those zones to prebuff, then enter the next room immediately after. Have Minsc and Anomen use DUHM before entering any room, the duration is pretty long with those character levels. Physical attacks are the way to go in this level.

Yakman's Journal will help with the right order of zones, the rest you can memorize. Be prepared to spend some serious time on this level. One wrong step might send you back to the start.

Heindrich

Your party seems incredibly high leveled for a pre-Spellhold party. Is it not a full six man team?

I personally loved that part of Watcher's Keep! Yes it was brutal for a first-timer with a magic-heavy party, but MAN was it rewarding and satisfying when you made it through! As @Yannir mentioned, Yakman's Journal is crucial for helping you figure out directions- I spent quite a long time running around like a headless chicken because I misread one direction.

As for pre-buffing, if I remember correctly, you can prebuff before Wild Magic zones and retain all the benefits, but you lose all your buffs if you walk into a Dead Magic zone. Don't be afraid to run away if necessary and get pen and paper out to make a note of what you're facing so that you can better prepare next time.

Tresset

Kicks like a mule? Don't you mean like a (*thinks of cool animal with devestating kick*) deinonychus? (*metaphor goes over most forumites' heads*)

That level is very hard. I did it fairly early level once and it was not easy but lots of fun. That blasted "Pit Fiend" that uses tons of magic in a DEAD MAGIC ZONE is the worst!

GreenWarlock

@Heinrich: full party of 6, but with a slight pre-boost for Chateau Irenicus, coming off the back of /both/ Black Pits and BG1, in that order, and I have done absolutely all accessible content before jumping on the boat. The import did not quite work out as expected, so I consoled PC to the 675k xp he needed to dual and then disabled console again - details in the 'finally playing SoA' thread in General. That said, I got the 800k xp version of Minsc rather than the 1.2M xp version that a druid might meet, Jan and Haer'Dalis managed to kick off with relatively low xp (161k is for Jan) but given my plans to hit all the NPC quests before getting my party going, the rest are about right. I also gained xp scribing scrolls for Nalia/Edwin, and made sure that Imoen scribed all scrolls in the Chateau, to maximize our likely outcome. Likewise, Jan tried to avoid picking locks/disarming traps until we ticked over on the xp front, which was frustrating to manage the early levels, but having Hexxat around helped a lot. Pushing to maximize xp before the major content also means that by the time I was hitting the Shadow Dragon lair, I was running into liches, so encounter xp was deliberately managed up as well.

While waiting for the Mac patch to ship, I got a /lot/ of practice at running through Chateau Irenicus as the only safely playable part of the game. Essentially, I run it pseudo-solo with Imoen to boost the recruitment level of Misc and Jaheira when I grab them just before leaving, so I am reasonably confident in what starting levels for NPCs are attainable, even without my boost. BTW, the chateau is 'entertaining' as a 1st level mage with essentially no spells (especially as I will pick the first two as spells I remember as least frequent drops, rather than particularly useful...)

GreenWarlock

Finally beat down one of the wraiths, which made it a little easier to go back and take down a second, and then it was almost reasonable to take a third. Took the last one and the demon together in my last pass, and have finally found a sequence to run and get me back to the start. Finally cutting my losses, and heading for the boat. Just need to sell my stashes and buy out the fancy kit and spells before leaving, while carrying the 'special' stuff in a full bag of holding, to sell at the super generous sahuagin store when we get there... (micromanaging to the end!)

Yannir

Tresset said:

Kicks like a mule? Don't you mean like a (*thinks of cool animal with devestating kick*) deinonychus? (*metaphor goes over most forumites' heads*)

That level is very hard. I did it fairly early level once and it was not easy but lots of fun. That blasted "Pit Fiend" that uses tons of magic in a DEAD MAGIC ZONE is the worst!

Pit Fiends don't actually have spells but innate spell-like abilities. They are superpowers, not magic.

Tresset

Yannir said:

Tresset said:

Kicks like a mule? Don't you mean like a (*thinks of cool animal with devestating kick*) deinonychus? (*metaphor goes over most forumites' heads*)

That level is very hard. I did it fairly early level once and it was not easy but lots of fun. That blasted "Pit Fiend" that uses tons of magic in a DEAD MAGIC ZONE is the worst!

Pit Fiends don't actually have spells but innate spell-like abilities. They are superpowers, not magic.

Yeah, I know... Still think it is cheap.

Lathlaer

Well, your innate HLA's also work, don't they?

Tresset

Tresset said:

Kicks like a mule? Don't you mean like a (*thinks of cool animal with devestating kick*) deinonychus? (*metaphor goes over most forumites' heads*)

So does anyone actually get this metaphor? Anyone at all?

Jarrakul

Yannir said:

Pit Fiends don't actually have spells but innate spell-like abilities. They are superpowers, not magic.

Pointless nit-pick time.

That's... not actually how monster spellcasting works. For two reasons. First, I don't have my second edition Monster Manual lying around, so I can't check pit fiends specifically, but the usual phrasing for monster abilities was along the lines of "can cast fireball three times per day", with no qualifiers about it being anything other than literally casting the spell, as a mage would. "Spell-like abilities" are, to the best of my knowledge, a third edition thing. If someone would like to correct me on that, go ahead, but I've certainly never seen the term in all my crawling through second edition monster books. Which brings me to the second reason. Once third edition came out and defined terms like "spell-like ability", it also defined whether such abilities were magical. There are three types. Spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary. They all have slightly different properties, but spell-like and supernatural abilities are explicitly magical, and explicitly do not function in antimagic fields (which are themselves weaker than dead magic zones). So the pit fiend should not have access to most of its special abilities, by the rules of any edition I'm aware of.

Innate HLAs, by contrast, are in no way spells, and in 3E would probably be extraordinary (with select exceptions for things like Time Trap). So it makes sense for them to work.

Jidokwon

After reading this, I've some testing to do. All innate abilities, including spells like Cure Light Wound and Slow Poison, can be cast in dead and wild magic zones?

Tresset

Jidokwon said:

After reading this, I've some testing to do. All innate abilities, including spells like Cure Light Wound and Slow Poison, can be cast in dead and wild magic zones?

Not all of them. Only the ones that have the flag that allows them to be cast in such areas.

hispls

You should totally be able to get through WK at that point. Typically my characters are just getting their first HLAs in time for the final battle. Those magic zone rooms are infuriating but do-able. Potions, wands, and other items still work.
I think WK has been done pretty much right out of the gate by players on here so it's all a matter of using some more creative strategies. Coming back after spellhold will be a real disappointment as far as a sense of accomplishment when you do clear WK.

Gallowglass

Tresset said:

Tresset said:

Kicks like a mule? Don't you mean like a (*thinks of cool animal with devestating kick*) deinonychus? (*metaphor goes over most forumites' heads*)

So does anyone actually get this metaphor? Anyone at all?

Okay, you obviously want someone to respond, so I'll bite.

So ... I'm aware that deinonychus was a feathered precursor of velociraptor, with a vicious curved skewering-talon on its feet. But no, I can't see exactly what point you're making. Are you simply drawing attention to the physical similarity of deinonychus's feet to a pit fiend's taloned feet/hands/elbows/etc.?

(Pedantry corner: the example you offer is not a metaphor: it's a simile.)

JackOfClubs

In order to navigate the maze, it is useful to know the map number. You can find this out by hitting the X key (in Windows version, I don't know about other platforms). That will give you a map number in the format AR0000 where the zeroes are replaced by actual numbers.

The trick to getting around is to know which door goes to which area. This is not straightforward as you always start in the N door, regardless of which direction you came from and exiting through the N door will not necessarily take you back where you came. I took the trouble to create a matrix of each room and its four exits (or two in the case of "Boss" areas). Here it is, for those who don't want to bother mapping it out themselves:

ROOM----N-----E------S-----W-----Contents
3003----L2--3008--3011--3009-----Compass Rose, Entrance from L2
3004--3008--3009--3006--3012-----Cornugons, Salamanders Traps; No Magic
3005--3007--3010--3005--3003-----Tiefling Adventurers Wild Magic
3006--3009--3004--3013--3008-----Succubus; Will transport to 3015 for a “kiss”
3007--3014--3007--3005--3007-----5 Demon Knights
3008--3004--3012--3006--3003-----3 Cornugons, 1 Balor; Purifier +4 in pillar No Magic
3009--3003--3005--3006--3004-----Imps Wild Magic
3010--3003--3013--3010--3005-----Glabrezu
3011--3003----NA---OUT----NA-----Yakman's Camp
3012--3008----NA--3004----NA-----Tena'ari Headquarters
3013--3006----NA--3010----NA-----Karashur Headquarters
3014--3015----NA--3007----NA-----Demon Wraith and Slave Wraiths Traps
3015----NA----L4----NA--3014-----Aesgareth; Deck of Many Things

I have omitted the AR prefix for brevity.

The first column is the room you are in and each of the successive columns are the various exits. So if you are in room 3008 and want to get to room 3012 you just exit the East door. If you want to get to room 3009 you can either go N (to 3004) then E to 3009 or S (to 3006) then N to 3009.

L2 exits back to Level 2 (the chromatic demon area).
L4 goes to Level 4 (once you have the appropriate item to fix the portal).
NA means the room in question only has 2 exits.
OUT exits to the Watcher's Keep outer stairs.