Robes of Vecna vs. Archmagi

Skie

So which do you prefer?
The AC is mostly irrelevant as you can just use braces of AC3.

Vecna offers more magic resistance and faster casting, while archmagi offer +1 to all saving throws.

Kamigoroshi

Pajamas of Kangazz.

Closely followed by Robes of Vecna.

elminster

Does go to show the total lack of variety in good robes particularly in BG2.

That said I'm going to go with the Tunic of Blindeye. All wild magic all the time!

pwaring

I find the faster casting is better, as it usually means I can get off an area of effect spell before any enemy mages have chance to cast, which causes a spell failure and also weakens them sufficiently for my fighters to finish them off before they can cast anything else.

However, I usually have two mages in my group so I end up using both robes anyway (I give Vecna to the more powerful/offensive mage).

Heindrich

I thought that from a powergaming perspective, it'd be a no-contest. Robe of Vecna allows you to shoot first in almost every encounter, and pull off all sorts of combos. My personal favourite (not saying it is the most powerful, just personal preference) is to insta-cast Greater Mallison so I can hit the enemy with a crippling Web or Chaos (or both) at the very start of the fight.

pwaring

Another good combo (later in the game, particularly in ToB), is to cast Time Stop, then Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting (x2) followed by another Time Stop (will hit just as the previous one ends) and another couple of area-effect spells. That's usually enough to hammer most groups of bad guys, provided that they're not immune to time stop.

Lord_Tansheron

+1 saving throws is a fairly small benefit in BG2. Saves are a big deal in BG1, but in BG2 your levels are so high you have amazing saves against anything. Plus, a ton of dangerous spells/effects don't actually care about saves to begin with.

Faster casting is significantly better.

lroumen

The adventurers robe because it looks better

Lathlaer

Robe of Vecna is better, there is no discussion. What I would like to see is a robe that does not offer faster casting but gives permanent aura cleansing. It would offer a different feel of power and, contrary to what might be a popular opinion, wouldn't be that unbalanced. Certainly not as overpowered as combo Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna.

Jarrakul

Robe of Vecna, definitely. The magic resistance increase is roughly (very roughly) as good defensively as +1 to all saves, and even without Improved Alacrity, the casting speed increase is incredibly useful.

Arunsun

I look down on those who use the Robe of Cheesing. Archmagi is for real men. Vecna is just utterly OP. Sorcerer with Vecna just has to do tim stop, improved alacrity, and he may litterally unleash the Nine Hells upon his opponents.
Cheese (=Dragon) Breath: instant
Fire arrow/Skull trap: instant
Let s add 6 more Magic missile, etc...
That's good fun, dealing about 1000 damage instantly. But that's super cheesy as well.

Robe of Vecna would earn the second rank of Cheesiness in my Cheesiness scale, between EB perma 10 APR bug (1st) and improved alacrity (3rd)

Edit: I forgot staff of the Magi in my cheesiness list. Maybe Mislead+ backstab as well should be close.

Mortianna

The Robe of Evil Archmagi, because it's the best looking robe in the game.

Although I'm sure I'd pick the Robe of Cheese Vecna if I were powergamey.

lroumen

Lathlaer said:

What I would like to see is a robe that does not offer faster casting but gives permanent aura cleansing. It would offer a different feel of power and, contrary to what might be a popular opinion, wouldn't be that unbalanced. Certainly not as overpowered as combo Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna.

that fully depends on when you get it. Even at low levels a robe of aura cleansing would be overpowered, but Vecna is only really overpowered in combination with alacrity.
I think if you do not get alacrity the discussion is completely different all of a sudden.

pwaring

Arunsun said:

I look down on those who use the Robe of Cheesing. Archmagi is for real men. Vecna is just utterly OP. Sorcerer with Vecna just has to do tim stop, improved alacrity, and he may litterally unleash the Nine Hells upon his opponents.

I don't think it's overpowered - by the time your sorcerer can cast level 9 spells s/he is a powerful mage, and it's not unrealistic for such a person to have a couple of powerful magical items. Even with such a combination, it's not the case that all enemies will easily fall - particularly in ToB there are opponents whose high magic resistance (and, in a couple of cases, immunity to time stop) mean that it's still a fairly even battle. In fact, given some of the items later opponents carry, Vecna is really just levelling the field.

Heindrich

Arunsun said:

I look down on those who use the Robe of Cheesing. Archmagi is for real men. Vecna is just utterly OP.

@Arunsun
It's a single-player game, people should play it however they want. I don't care if somebody just ctrl+y's everything in their way because they just wanted to play BG for the story.

I tend to agree with @pwaring , not only on the principle that people can use whatever they want, but also I don't think that the Robe of Vecna is that powerful. There are certain tactics that are even more "OP"... for example you can win almost every encounter in the game instantly by spamming traps beforehand, or Chain-Contingency a trio of Horrid Wilting, or use wands/scrolls from Simulacrums. I don't think the Robe of Vecna is that out of line.

A lot also depends on how you play. Some of you talk about RoV as if it automatically enables you to Time Stop + Improved Alacrity for every encounter. That's clearly not true, first your mage needs to reach epic levels, and even then he/she has a very limited pool of such high level spells. If you use limited rest rules like I do, the most powerful spells are used very sparingly, so being able to cast faster is only really useful for getting the first strike (which granted, can be decisive), rather than spamming spells like they were unlimited ammo.

dunbar

All my mages are complete cowards who try to avoid getting hit by anything and prefer a fast pair of feet over AC any day of the week, so the Robe of Vecna works brilliantly for them - get off one quick shot and run like hell.
Seriously, I always try to keep my mages way at the back, or behind a tank, so AC isn't really an issue the way I play.

Jarrakul

dunbar said:

All my mages are complete cowards who try to avoid getting hit by anything and prefer a fast pair of feet over AC any day of the week, so the Robe of Vecna works brilliantly for them - get off one quick shot and run like hell.
Seriously, I always try to keep my mages way at the back, or behind a tank, so AC isn't really an issue the way I play.

Alternatively, you can use spells like Mirror Image, Stoneskin, and PfMW to tank as a mage, in which case the Robe of Vecna helps you get those spells off faster and without being interrupted by enemy attacks. For either strategy, casting speed is king.

Tresset

So... No love for the Robe of Goodman Hayes? You guys are aware of how powerful that thing can be, right? I definitely would keep it around if I had a wild mage... If I had two mages and one was Neera then she would wear that all the time while the other mage would get Vecna.

The Robe of the Apprenti is pretty good too. Great AC for a robe.

I am with elminster on the Tunic of Blindeye. I don't use it because its wild magic spell sucks due to offering a saving throw. I should tweak that though.

Lord_Tansheron

Goodman is alright, if you ignore the fact that you have to be a Wild Mage, i.e. probably not a dual.

If you do want to run with a WM though, it's arguably better than Vecna because Nahal's isn't exactly bottlenecked by casting speed. It stacks with Chaos Shields you cast, right?

Tresset

@Lord_Tansheron Yeah, it stacks with Chaos Shields.

Actually casting speed is actually the only bottleneck that NRD has. Alacrity is what is not a problem for NRD.

Lord_Tansheron

@Tresset Yes, but that in turn diminishes the importance of casting speed because you can still get a high enough cast/time ratio. And since you're likely not a dual when you're a WM, it's easier to avoid interruption anyway.

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Lord_Tansheron

Oh gods, I cannot imagine what SCS Liches would do with permanent aura cleaning...

Blades

I usually have multiple arcane casters. One with faster casting for quick enemy Mage protection removal while the other is landing a damage or status spell right after. Mages in tandem are devastating. With mods I like to have my PC, Ninafer, Aerie and Nalia/Imoen casting Arcane Magic. Add Keldorn and Anomen. No enemy spellcaster has a chance. This party easily takes down protections of the toughest beings in the game while summons hold off the rest of the enemies until my party can mop up.

Jarrakul

Tresset said:

So... No love for the Robe of Goodman Hayes? You guys are aware of how powerful that thing can be, right? I definitely would keep it around if I had a wild mage... If I had two mages and one was Neera then she would wear that all the time while the other mage would get Vecna.

The Robe of Goodman Hayes is fantastic for a wild mage. That's a pretty specific order, though. Most mages aren't wild. So I think the Robe of Vecna still wins out overall (it may do so anyway, but for a wild mage it's much more debatable).

Arunsun

Basically Robe of Goodman Hayes is the reason why a second mage in any team should be a wildmage.
Nahal Reckless Dweomer has like 95% to cast the spell either normally or with improved effects. You might even add Vicross headband to get it to 100% to cast normally.