Questions about SCS and new EE content

Jidokwon

I've noticed a lot of mobs in new EE content ignore the forerunning plate tanks altogether and go for the squishier casters (at early levels). For example, during Neera's quest in BGEE and BG2EE, the mobs all focused on the casters and ignored my plate tanks no matter what they did. Likewise, during Rasaad's quest in BG2EE, the thieves all honed in the casters for their backstabbing.

In most games, the plate tanks' primary objective is to hold aggro and act as a meat shield for the casters to do their thing in turn. In the vanilla series here, they were able to perform this role throughout (though a number of casters' overpowered spells and abilities end up making them far greater tanks later on).

I'm not totally against a smarter AI, but this new tactic, in effect, takes out at least one of my players for the given battle and makes plate tanks basically useless. If the caster doesn't have access to one (or more) of the overpowered spells that will allow them to laugh off the mobs focusing on them, they end up kiting for the full duration of the battle. When this happens, the mobs locked in the caster remain on them until either they or the caster is dead. I've had them completely ignore all melee, ranged, and spell damage from other characters that have tried to draw their attention multiple times.

I'm all for a change of pace (characters unable to perform their main role) on rare occasions, but I don't think I'd have the patience to play a full game like this. I'm wondering if all mobs with SCS installed act similar. If I remember right, a number of mobs in the Black Pits series did this, too. At higher levels, this isn't too much of an issue, I suppose, but I'm wondering what people are doing in these situations.

semiticgoddess

Whenever I play the game, with or without SCS2, the enemies I target first are always the spellcasters, not the guys in plate mail. The spellcasters are both the biggest threat and the easiest to take down. This is what basically every human player always does: ignore the guy in plate mail, kill the guy in the robe.

If I'm not stupid enough to focus on killing the guys in plate mail, then why should I expect the enemy to do any different?

Jidokwon

I can understand why people would want a smarter UI and I'm not saying that I don't do it myself, but in most games and most of this series, the plate tanks are able to fulfill their main purpose in almost all cases. In other realms, plate tanks have taunt and other tools needed for aggro management. These kinds of tools weren't introduced to plate tanks in the BG series because they weren't needed. Mobs focused on the first characters in sight and then those meleeing them throughout. Why even bring or play a plate tank if you can't fulfill the main purpose of one? So, again, my question is do all mobs with SCS installed focus only casters? If this is the case, are tools provide for the plate tanks to perform their roles?

Jidokwon

Hmm. I may have to rethink my ideal for the plate tanks. I just read the class description for the fighter, ranger, paladin, etc. and no where does it even mention the role of protecting others for any of them. Some might get tools that are useful for surviving, but it looks like the idea of having a plate tank in D&D or the BG series at least is dead.

Please, disregard and delete this thread, as I didn't realize that the sole purpose for all warriors was simply doing melee or ranged damage.

Hudzy

You can generally make sure they take the first hits at least, but yeah there's no real concept of a tank here.

semiticgoddess

@Jidokwon: Realistically speaking, your point makes perfect sense. If you're in a fight with a guy in plate mail and a guy in a robe, well, yeah, you'd probably want to hit the guy in the robe first. But the guy in the robe is going to be running around, staying out of your reach while the guy in plate mail is going to be in your face, harassing you the whole time. In a real fight with these factors, you WOULD get distracted by the fighter type, and you'd have to deal with him first. The guy in plate mail would indeed function as a decent tank. Unfortunately the engine has no such mechanism; that's all.

On an unrelated note... if you want to keep enemies at a safe distance from your casters, you might consider testing out Teleport Field.

Jidokwon

I appreciate the feedback. Like I said, in the orginal series it was rarely an issue as they normally didn't peel off the plate wearing warriors that I'd send in first. The problem as it occurs in almost all of the new EE content could be looked at like bringing casters to dead or wild magic zones. But in this case, it's almost entirely optional. What I'd like to do is increase the difficulty without losing the main purpose of warriors that wear plate mail and have abilities that absorb damage. At least, that's the role that I've always used these characters for. Dealing some damage was just an extra.

Lord_Tansheron

If you want to tank in SCS, you have to use the terrain to your advantage. Choke points are what it's all about, so go find a corridor or narrow passageway or something and plug it with your meatboy.

Tanking in its original form was a bit cheesy imo. You could literally have enemies not hit your squishies at all, leaving you free to make them as paper as you like. That's how it works in IWD:EE currently (for lack of a SCS-equivalent) and it is not particularly fun imo if your tank can just stand there until the end of time, never losing mobs. While "tanking" as a concept is alright, it requires more thorough implementation to work; the rudimentary way it is present in BG/IWD just screams for abuse.

SCS's "fix" of the issue is perhaps not the best solution, but it is one I can live with. It enforces a lot more micromanagement of characters, and use of things like the aforementioned terrain, chokepoints, etc., adding much-needed depth to the combat flow.

Arunsun

To answer what you said about new enemies being smarter, I read in some article from the devs that SCS would have very little influence on the new enemies, for they already have that improved AI. It just means you have to prepare a little better though, use stoneskin and you are fine.

lunar

In the beginning of bg1, you face...gibberlings, xvarts, kobolds, wild bears, wolves, and untrained-unexperienced bandit-wannabes. You can't expect them to be smart enough to change targets and/or target spellcasters. A gibberling will attack the nearest target it thinks it can latch its jaws on.

In bg2, and in higher levels, you face smarter and more experienced enemies. These are the elite bodyguards, wisened arch-magi, grandfather assasins, and the like. Surely in their long life in their profession they have mustered enough intelligence and strategems to find and defeat the biggest threat in a given battle. Same for bp2, in the fallen devas battle, for example, one deva teleported right next to my mage to harass him, that was smart. I was smarter, however, my swashy has planted a time trap and the deva triggered it when she teleported and was cut to ribbons by my female halfling swashie whirlwind attacking in the timestop with clestial fury. Heh. Now if the devas acted like gibberlings, that wouldn't make sense, or be fun and challenging, right?

Arunsun

@lunar what you say would make sense if all "experienced" enemies acted like enemies in BP2. As a matter of fact, when I fight Abazigal, who's supposed to be an expert at killing, I just summon my Mordenkainen sword which he keeps hitting even though it deals low damage, has low APR, and is immune to physical damages.
I mean, not only is it not a threat, but it is utterly useless to hit it. And Abazigal would just keep hitting it till it is unsummoned/he is dead.

lunar

Arunsun said:

@lunar what you say would make sense if all "experienced" enemies acted like enemies in BP2. As a matter of fact, when I fight Abazigal, who's supposed to be an expert at killing, I just summon my Mordenkainen sword which he keeps hitting even though it deals low damage, has low APR, and is immune to physical damages.
I mean, not only is it not a threat, but it is utterly useless to hit it. And Abazigal would just keep hitting it till it is unsummoned/he is dead.

Ah well, scs fixes it nicely. Among other things. There is some randomisation in scs's scripts and sometimes it feels like you are playing against a living human mind.

Jidokwon

SCS sounds interesting and I have been looking for ways to increase the difficulty, but what is the purpose of warriors wearing plate mail and having abilities that absorb damage if all of the mobs always focus on the casters and won't peel off?

lunar

Jidokwon said:

SCS sounds interesting and I have been looking for ways to increase the difficulty, but what is the purpose of warriors wearing plate mail and having abilities that absorb damage if all of the mobs always focus on the casters and won't peel off?

Not all enemies are THAT smart. Base creatures such as trolls, umber hulks, undead etc. are always happy to go toe to toe with plated tanks. Humanoid enemies and smart enemies target spellcasters in scs, but not to the point of ignoring a plated fighter gutting them with a sword. You need to play fighters more aggresively and get close to their face as fast as possible, while putting your casters as far as possible and keep them protected well with stoneskins, mirror images, (improved) invisibility, etc. It is not that hard.

Lord_Tansheron

There is definitely some sort of priority targeting going on, based both on target class/role and things like proximity. You can still control things to SOME degree using things like terrain, distance etc. to your advantage. It's not that enemies will NEVER "peel off", but it definitely requires micromanaging.

Arunsun

SCS has downside as well. Just equip boots of speed and cast stoneskin and IH with your mage, and you might just easily kite your enemies till they are dead. It is not like there was no way to deal massive damage with ranged weapon (Archer , Archer/Cleric with EB or slings, or even druids and cleric with EB would deal insane damage. Kensai with crossbows or such things is quite insane as well)

Jidokwon

Thank you for the replies again. They paint a much better picture and it sounds like it might be what I'm looking for. I do play the warriors aggressively, but what's been frustrating about many of the new battles is that mobs will target the casters and not peel off until they or the caster is killed. I mean my warriors are hitting them plenty in melee range, but my casters end up having to kite (this is before they get powerful buffs and can't just stand there). But the new content is almost all entirely optional and avoidable and it's uncommon enough that I look at it like bringing casters to dead or wild magic zones.

I've played the series in original form enough that I don't normally use a scout or prebuff, other than long term spells, unless it's quite obvious that the party is about to engage in a battle. I doubt playing this casual will fly with SCS installed. It will be refreshing to have scouting serve a purpose again, but please correct me if I'm wrong about the need to fully prebuff for every encounter. I enjoy playing as if the party would be surprised, when appropriate, even when *I* (not the party) know a fight is coming. Getting buffs up on the fly is part of the fun and strategy for me, but I'm thinking this style of play isn't going to cut it for SCS.

Hudzy

I can't fairly comment on SCS in BG2 yet, but throughout BG1 with SCS I wasn't prebuffing except stoneskins and other long term spells. But I was engaging with my frontliners first and bringing in backliners once the enemy has wasted early efforts on low AC targets. And scouting where possible with a thief.

Davide

Arunsun said:

@lunar what you say would make sense if all "experienced" enemies acted like enemies in BP2. As a matter of fact, when I fight Abazigal, who's supposed to be an expert at killing, I just summon my Mordenkainen sword which he keeps hitting even though it deals low damage, has low APR, and is immune to physical damages.
I mean, not only is it not a threat, but it is utterly useless to hit it. And Abazigal would just keep hitting it till it is unsummoned/he is dead.

In one or two of the reloads I had to do before killing him, Abazigal released some sort of Prismatic Spray that dealed magic damage, killing the sword in a blow.

Davide

Jidokwon said:

It will be refreshing to have scouting serve a purpose again, but please correct me if I'm wrong about the need to fully prebuff for every encounter. I enjoy playing as if the party would be surprised, when appropriate, even when *I* (not the party) know a fight is coming. Getting buffs up on the fly is part of the fun and strategy for me, but I'm thinking this style of play isn't going to cut it for SCS.

I guess that mostly depends on your ability.
In my case, I was often beaten in my encounters*, to the point that those couple of rounds spared by buffing my party before starting the encounter (and the subsequent fight) were often almost vital.


* I must say that I installed practically all the monsters and AI improvements from SCS.