Seeking Input On a Character Concept Build

Qwynn

Greetings!

I dabbled briefly in Baldur's Gate years ago, though never made it very far. I was a little too young for grasping some of the 2E AD&D rules, especially as I had a bias towards 3.5E!

Now that I'm sufficiently older, I'm ready to actually experience the Baldur's Gate series. Both myself and all my installed mods are ready to go, but now I seem to be having trouble on the character creation side of things. Specifically, I'm having an issue in deciding between pure, dual-, or multi- class options.

I've already taken to reading through both of these pages:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3336/dual-class-vs-multiclass-pros-and-cons-for-those-of-us-who-are-new/p2
http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Dual_and_Multiclassing

While they were very informative, they still left me wondering. Considering that this character will also be imported into BGII, I am able to look at a far larger picture in terms of character development.

I'm leaning towards a Fighter/Thief multi-class (and taking advantage of a grandmastery mod) as it seems to be what I'm looking for most. A somewhat durable melee combatant in leather or chain armour who is my primary picker of locks and finder of traps with no real drawbacks aside from slower levelling.

My hesitation stems from the fact that I am not overly concerned about backstabbing.

Armed with that knowledge, I then wonder if a Thief > Fighter dual-class would be more to my liking. Of course, I would need a dedicated rogue to handle rogue-abilities for a /very long time/.

Swashbuckler > Fighter dual-class seems like it'd be an excellent choice (though I have installed the Rogue Rebalancing mod, meaning I cannot dual-class into a fighter from a Swashbuckler). The mod /does/ give Swashbucklers a fighter's THAC0 progression when using melee weapons though, so a pure Swashbuckler could also be an option.

I briefly considered a Swashbuckler > Mage dual-class, but decided that sort of magic-rogue would be better suited for a different character.

I suppose my question is: What do you think?

Am I 'correct' in leaning towards a Fighter/Thief multi-class?


(As an aside, I'm not super into the meta-gaming stuff. It's more for RP flavour than that, but I do enjoy working on builds and the combat offered by these sorts of games).

Musigny

RP flavour -> do what you like. The game itself has no substantial amount of content focussing on a particular class. Strongholds are nice add-ons but this is not part of the core game.

I am a big fan of F/T but I have an early interest in scouting / backstabbing / setting traps (or even detect invisibility) and obviously that differs from yours.
Multi or dual classed thieves are nice options because the thief mono class quickly reaches its top level without having much to add as you gain further xp and levels.
Multi classing is good for such a build but based on your assumptions a dual class may do a nice job : gain some points in the skills you are interested in then switch to your new class.
In your list of possible builds, please also have a look at the cleric / thief (dual or multi).
This being said I think that everyone should play a multi-classed F/T at least once (yes my view is biased).

Qwynn

I considered Theif/Cleric multi- briefly, but it went the way of the Swash>Mage (as I'm not feeling magic for this character).

That said, I think Theif/Cleric would make a really fun support class to play around with at some point.

As I am technically learning/re-learning this D&D ruleset, I think I am going to go for the Fighter/Theif. It seems a solid choice for a first playthrough. Come the future I might rework this character into a dual-class, but I'm going to wait on that until I get a better feel on what each class has to offer.

That said, it also helps that I rolled some pretty nice stats on the Figther/Thief version of this character while I was thinking about classes (set auto-roller up, make morning tea, come back to a 95 roll with 98 STR%).

I'm going to take that roll as a sign from Tymora and go with it. Heh.

joluv

Would you please explain what an "auto-roller" is? That sounds like something that could introduce a fascinating new dimension to the psychodrama of the "Why do you guys reroll (stats) so much?" thread. (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/40668/why-do-you-guys-reroll-stats-so-much)

More on-topic: If you don't care about backstabbing, you could make a Fighter/Thief multi who mostly uses non-thief weapons. Axes might be cool.

Qwynn

joluv said:

Would you please explain what an "auto-roller" is? That sounds like something that could introduce a fascinating new dimension to the psychodrama of the "Why do you guys reroll (stats) so much?" thread. (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/40668/why-do-you-guys-reroll-stats-so-much)

More on-topic: If you don't care about backstabbing, you could make a Fighter/Thief multi who mostly uses non-thief weapons. Axes might be cool.

An auto-roller is exactly what it sounds like. It automatically rerolls your stats and records the higher rolls. Each time a higher roll is achieved, it saves it and keeps rolling (until you tell it to stop).

Have a link!

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10937/utility-ee-autoroller/p1

(I think people like the feeling rerolling stats gives. Whether it's manually or using that utility, it feels /good/ to see a 90+ roll pop up).

Back on-topic:

I didn't even /consider/ axes and I don't know why. I absolutely love the (mental) visual of TWF axes, but I rarely get to do it in games.

Hmm.

Hmmmmm.

Jarrakul

I'm totally for the fighter/thief multi. Ignore backstabbing if you feel like it. While it definitely has uses, it's also a pain, and making heavy use of it either costs resources or takes you out of combat for several seconds (which effectively negates some/all of the bonus damage). I would instead invest in find traps/open locks early, and then switch to set traps/detect illusions later on. You should end up pretty strong.

Qwynn

Jarrakul said:

I'm totally for the fighter/thief multi. Ignore backstabbing if you feel like it. While it definitely has uses, it's also a pain, and making heavy use of it either costs resources or takes you out of combat for several seconds (which effectively negates some/all of the bonus damage). I would instead invest in find traps/open locks early, and then switch to set traps/detect illusions later on. You should end up pretty strong.

Sounds like a plan.

I decided to go with the Fighter/Thief mult- focusing on TWF and axes. How the character evolves from there should be interesting.

Thank you kindly, everyone. Time to buckle down and play some BG!

Jaheiras_Witness

I really don't see why you would *not* want to backstab if you're going to play a fighter/thief. Exactly what combat role do you see him playing if not as the scout / backstabber? If ranged, then you don't need the fighter element, a pure thief would work pretty well.

Backstabbing costs nothing other than a little prep and is the single most damaging attackform in the game.

joluv

@Jaheiras_Witness: Sometimes being sneaky just doesn't fit with the personality of a character, and a F/T with two axes can do a lot of damage in melee.

Qwynn

@Jaheiras_Witness: @Joluv is correct in that sneaky rogues aren't the only type of rogue. While I understand that a F/T built to do backstab damage is /amazing/, it's not really what I'm interested in for the character. Her role is that of a front-line melee combatant and is more or less filling the space a TWF ranger would; dual axes and chain-mail are good times to be had. She can take a bit of a beating while dealing very good damage.

And while doing that she also fills the role of non-sneaky scout. That is to say, she finds my traps and picks my locks. (Though come import to BGII, my theif points will probably be going into HiS and MS anyways, as by that point most of the other theif skills will be at a suffecient level. That'll make her a sneaky-scout, but still not a backstabber).

As I said, I know that F/T would be 'best' when built to backstab, but there's enough flexibility for it to perform other roles.

She's level 3/4 right now, and so far she's playing exactly as I was hoping she'd feel.

My biggest issue right now happens to be choosing my party members. I like them all!

DreadKhan

If you want a simple and easy Fighter/Thief type character, a pure Stalker is a real beast. His big edge vs a F/T multi mind you is durability, but they're a bit fragile in BG1, where suitable armour is rare (their best armour can be found pretty damn early, but its not even the best armour a Thief could use, which is unfortunate).

For a starter party the first time through, just try and take a wide range of people. There are lots, so you can afford to have one die and not raise them if you don't absolutely love them. The only one that is solidly weaker than the curve is Garrick, and even he can be quite useful if you use him the right way.

If you try a Cleric Thief, Gnome offers great utility, and is a very viable solo if you're into that sort of thing. Half-orc will be a better backwhacker though, using BS with clubs and staffs for pretty impressive damage.

Duals are not really recommended for new players. You CAN dual a couple of NPCs though, so this might be a great way to practice the mechanic a bit. Imoen can dual to a mage from lvl 2 onwards, and Shar-Teel (she's evil, so she leaves if your rep is too high) can dual from Fighter to Thief. Others can be dualed, but require you to find a way to improve their key stat (you need 17 in the key ability score of the new class to dual to it).

Jarrakul

The thing about the Stalker is that it's great if the only thing you want out of a fighter/thief is backstabs. Since the OP wants everything else and not that, I wouldn't recommend the Stalker in this case, as strong a kit as it is.

DreadKhan

He specified an interest in durability, and Stalker is more durable than a thief to fighter dual, and a better fighter than a fighter to thief dual. *shrugs* It doesn't fit everything he's looking for, but it isn't exactly contrary, so I tossed it in. There are tons of NPCs who can fill in for lockpicking and traps.

mashedtaters

Just a piece of info in regards to using a mod for grandmastery and multiclass:

Because fighter/thief progression is so slow, it becomes very difficult to take advantage of grandmastery modding with multiclass, imho, unless you use only one type of weapon. Consider at level one that you only place 2 pips maximum in your weapon of choice. Understanding that you also want to use two-weapon fighting (because honestly, why wouldn't you?) and assuming a ranged weapon, you have already allotted 6 weapon pips, 2 towards your weapon of choice, 2 towards your ranged weapon, and 2 towards two-weapon fighting. That's all of BGEE right there, as you only receive one pip every three fighter levels. You max out the game at around level 7/7 or 8/8, I can't remember which, but you may or may not get your 7th pip.

By the time BG2EE rolls around, you have to wait until level 15/15 before you can achieve 5 pips, or grandmastery, which is halfway through BG2EE. (And then you only get one more pip at level 18/18, which is near the end of SOA if not significantly into ToB.) With 10 pips maximum for a fighter/thief, I find that it is much more appealing to spread the pips among several different weapon types, because you may end up wanting to backstab later on, and you can't backstab with axes.

Using a ranged weapon is so convenient and useful in BGEE, that I wouldn't consider having a character without it unless I had some other agenda (such as a berserker or cavalier). If you wait to put pips in ranged weapons until after you achieve grandmastery, at level 12/12, then you have missed out on the most useful time to have a ranged weapon. By the time you have two pips in your ranged weapon, 15/15, you may be unable to appreciate them as you could have in BGEE.

It is much more advantageous, imho, to spread the pips out among a variety of weapons, because you get a bigger selection of weapons, and there are some awesome weapon combinations that are not of the same weapon proficiency type. If you were a fighter dualed to thief, then grandmastery is a no brainer because you get so many more pips. If you were a straight-up fighter, the biggest reason to be a fighter is grandmastery in two weapons (yay!!). But multi-class fighter/thief just don't justify grandmastery (with mods), so I would recommend against it.

mashedtaters

BTW, have you settled on a party composition? I'm actually doing a fighter/thief multi half-orc playthrough now, and haven't quite decided who I'm going to bring. Just curious who you have decided on.

FinneousPJ

@mashedtaters You don't need ** to benefit from ranged weapons in BGEE. They own even without pips.

mashedtaters

FinneousPJ said:

@mashedtaters You don't need ** to benefit from ranged weapons in BGEE. They own even without pips.

I don't know about you, but that +1 to hit, +2 to damage, +1/2 attack/round, vs -2, or -3 to hit, +0 damage, +0 attack/round, makes enough of a difference in my games that I would rather have a character without 2 pips in ranged fight hand-to hand then waste ammo. Especially at early levels when death is a frequent certainty. +3 or +4 to hit is a significant difference.

FrdNwsm

Most folks who power-game seem to prefer the fighter/mage multi. Pretty much anything works eventually, however. My half-orc berserker is in Chapter 6 of SoA and going strong.

Early levels in BG1 can he annoying, since characters have few HP and can be killed by almost anything. If it's your first run-through, you might want to get a solo class in a profession that gets a lot of HP early on just to get a feel for things. You can watch how your NPC buddies progress to learn how the other classes function.

A Fighter Kit or Barbarian, for example has decent survivablility. With the right stats, you can dual them over to mage early on in SoA, if you get attached to one and want to keep him/her around. (Racially, you need to be human, of course, in order to do this). Note that bards and paladins apparently are prohibited from doing this ever, regardless of race.

Get yourself 5 companions ASAP. You can always swap one or two of them out later on when more diverse folks become available. (I.E. Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Montarn, Xzar are all ready to be picked up either en route to or at the FA Inn). Avoid talking to Minsc unless you are willing to do his rescue quest, btw.

FinneousPJ

@mashedtaters I'm not saying the pips don't make a difference. I'm saying you don't need them to use ranged weapons effectively (if you'd rather use the pips on something else).

OneAngryMushroom

Really when it comes to BG just play what you want. It took me 5 restarts to find a character I liked before I could finish the game. The fun of playing for the first time is seeing what happens and what you like. So long as you have a full balanced party you can get through the game with only a bit more than minimal difficulty.

JAuggie

@mashedtaters the grandmastery mod works fine with a multiclass F/T. As has been stated OP can use ranged weapons to supplement the time he doesn't have extra throwing axes to use (until he gets the returning one later in BG1). As for pips, if he's using a mod to allow grandmastery as a multi he's probably using improved grandmastery too, so 2 more pips in axes in BG1 (ends with same amount as a single class fighter) and at lv 9 gets grandmastery (very early in SoA). The advantages of grandmastery (assuming improved grandmastery) overwhelming outweigh the third pip in TWF.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

One important point which has not been mentioned applies mostly to BG2. The Multi-class Fighter/Thief is eventually going to score Higher-Level Abilities [HLAs] in both classes. Which can be awesome indeed...

Dual Class never gets the HLA of first class.