Arcane level 5 spells in IWDEE
JuliusBorisov
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This discussion was created from comments split from: No warriors party.
I hope people would try to be gentle here and respect each others' views.
I hope people would try to be gentle here and respect each others' views.
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You know, 5th level spells were wwwaaayyyy more important relatively speaking in BG2. Just noticed that.
Also level 5 Arcane has Cloudkill (10d10 damage, no save) Protection from Acid (useful for Death Fog and Acid Storm), and Spell: Immunity (Abjuration mainly)
Anyways, Cloudkill is situational (but yes, those situations certainly do come up), and who gives a rat's turd about Spell Immunity in IWD? I mean, Protection from Acid vs those stupid acid farting jerk-beetles? Yes please, but spell protections are really BG2's bag, baby.
Protection from Acid lets the frontliner survive with Death Fog and Acid Storm active. Protection from Fire for Incendiary Cloud and Meteor Shower. Protection from Magical Energy for triple Spell Sequencer Skull Traps, or just lets the party walk around without fear that a triple Wilting in a contingency might end up killing them too
Protection from Cold takes away the AoE cold damage aura that Ice Salamanders have, as well as deal with a few other attacks.
Cloudkill is situational? What? It's 10d10 damage with no save. In a spell heavy party damage of that scale is good. It's fairly effective in Chapter 2, most of Chapter 4, 5 and most of 6 (although by this time it'll get replaced by more effective AoE spells)
Anyways, Cloudkill's not 10d10 damage, its a 1d10 per round spell. That's a really, really significant difference, because in the majority of situations, you'd much rather have 10d6 damage in one turn, or 20d6 from a 20th level caster's Skull Trap. Cloudkill is good in certain situations, but in many, many others direct upfront damage wins out. If Cloudkill type damage was at 3rd level, it'd actually be more reasonable, though the instant kill effect requires it to take a 5th level slot.
Dispel magic? You are aware how few enemies that matter are going to cast that, right? Damn few. Protection from element spells can be cast by a lower level divine caster, and usually you're fine with 50-75% resistance anyways. Sure, +100% can be nice, but it's not usually gamebreakingly worthwhile, moreso in IWD than BG2 with it's horde of dragons that will lower your Fire Resistance, because they are jerks.
You brought up Animate Dead, guess what the stuff from Animate Dead is immune to? Cloudkill. Blast them with a Fireball and they die. Blast them with a Skull Trap and they die.
Animate Dead and Cloudkill sync up well. If you can use Stinking Cloud that's even better.
Aside from an occasional Feeblemind, Dispel Magic is the only spell an enemy caster can throw in this game that can really screw up your party. So Spell Immunity is a fairly important spell to have.
Incendiary Cloud is practically a tiny fireball (D4 vs D6) every round. Reducing the damage from that by 75% will still kill your frontliner if you're using it to lure enemies into the cloud.
And Protection Spells aren't about protecting against what the enemy can throw at you. It's about protecting your own party against itself. Let's say you get 50% Magic Damage resistance, that is certainly not going to protect against 3 Skull Traps or 3 Wiltings.
100%+ Resistance also doubles as healing. So Incendiary Cloud now acts as a damage and regeneration spell for your party.
And Sorcerers are still better mages than Mages thanks to their ability to learn spells on the go instead of waiting for scrolls to trickle in. Two Mages already starve each other out, three is a pain. 3 Sorcerers on the other hand don't really care. And in a no warrior party, multiple Sorcs are a pretty efficient way to go. And no ring is going to double the spells they can learn.
Are your SWs somehow missing MR? Its not perfect, but they certainly don't get dropped by a fireball. Besides, just incase you somehow missed my first post (which you replied to), Animate Dead is a divine spell at level 3, which is not exactly rife with competitive spells. Animate Dead is the best 3rd level divine spell when you get it, and it gets really good when you can summon SWs. If even Good clerics can inexplicably cast it, there is no need to waste a 5th level arcane spell on it, except there is very little standing out at that level, and we get a cheapo ring to boost 5th level spells.
Yyeeaahh, except you can just, you know, start the fight by casting a big, fat instant damage AoE spell, which will front load damage, which is almost always better than slow damage. Slow damage is handy vs casters, and casters are not that big of a problem in IWD, as everyone knows. Thats why Inquisitor is way less attractive vs Cavalier in part, Inquisitors are good vs casters. Anyways, 2 nice basic Fireballs from 10th lvl casters deals out an average of 70 damage to each guy caught in both blasts, before resistances. Skull Trap is much better later game, but you get Cloudkill around level 10, so we're going to go easy and use Fireball. How many rounds do you need to get to 70 damage from 2 Coudkills? 6.4 rounds, IE enough time for an enemy to fight back. Or, you know, cast Feeblemind, Hold Person, or Dispel Magic. Yeah, Cloudkill is amazing, if you have a situation in which the enemy can't move and thus will actually sit still for all 10 rounds. Otherwise it's a no-brainer that instant damage is better vs goons, which is +90% of IWD enemies.
Nope, Spell Immunity is not important to protect from Dispel Magic. It might be useful in 2 or 3 fights the whole game, though I admit one of them is the last boss (I assume SI will protect from his traps, but I haven't bothered testing it), but you can very easily win without bothering with it. You'd miss Chaos way more.
...You're going to go through that much trouble to set up a fight? Ever heard of using 2 casters, have one open up with Greater Malison, and have the other follow up immediately with a sequencer with 2 Webs in it? Yeah, thats called 'Game Over', and uses way less high level slots to do it's job. Then, you can drop all the Skull Traps, Cloudkills, Incendiary Clouds, Horrid Wiltings and Fireballs you want with no real risk. The odd guy that breaks free can be double teamed by some Skeleton Warriors your Cleric summoned.
TLDR; again buddy, never did I say 5th lvl arcane spells are 'crap' or 'useless' in IWD, I merely observed you have WAY less hassle than in BG2, where you never have enough 5th level spells. Or 4th.
Last I checked (and I check this a lot given that I play in HoF and Animate Dead is pretty much a staple unless I want to use a Totemic Druid) the only things Animate Dead summons in IWD, you know the game this subforum is named after, are Zombies, regular Skeletons, and Skeleton Archers all of which do not have Magic Resistance.
And they definitely will get downed by Fireball and Skull Trap. Unless you're playing in HoF, in which case Cloudkill's 10 round duration doesn't matter because fights last that long.
Also enough time for enemies to fight back? Really? You blabber on about double Web and somehow enemies are still fighting back? What?
And Feeblemind? In IWD? lol this game is all about pumping up the numbers in enemy groups. What exactly will Feebleminding a single enemy do? Right. Nothing. Anything worth casting Feeblemind on will most likely save. As far as disabling spells go, Web and Stinking Cloud do what Feeblemind does, which is stop enemies from attacking.
The Luremaster uses Dispel Magic, he also summons a bunch of Spectral Guards. The Rakasha uses Dispel Magic and summons a bunch of shades and can continue spamming Dispel Magic.
And you seem to have missed my point about Sorcerers, Sorcerers have limited slots of learn spells with. Wasting it on Chaos which really is just Web/Stinking Cloud with a longer duration as opposed to a damage spell that doesn't hurt the tanks (Animate Dead) is a pretty big waste.
And that bit about Cone of Cold still makes no sense. Picking one of the more useless spells to say a level isn't loaded with good spells is pretty dumb. I could say Arcane 2 has other good choices like, uh, Detect Evil.
You are the one that brought to the discussion strategies that are time-lapse based, IE damage per round.
In counter, I bring up things like "why not just use shutdown and effectively end the fight in the first round", and you say accuse me of blabbering? Yeah, good plan. That kind of argument doesn't work in grade school, and it doesn't work here.
Feeblemind was brought up by you originally. As an example of a spell used. I pointed out how you can avoid it and almost any spell easily. So yeah, epic level argument there too.
...You're counter to my saying that I could think of about 3 fights (...including the last boss, I even gave you that ffs) is that 'Oh yeah, this one guy uses dispel!', and you think this was worth typing?
Chaos isn't as good in IWD as it is in BG I agree, hence not mentioning it in my original comment about 5th level spells being substantially less frustrating to choose. However, one thing Chaos has over Cloudkill or Stinking Cloud is its effect is instantaneous. Enemies not immune to it have a hard save, even if you have done no preparations, and it doesn't just hold an enemy, it confuses them. Casters become an instant non-issue if they fail their save, and a crowd of giants becomes a nice, fat distraction, as they start fighting the closest enemy. I've killed Sarevok's party relying on Chaos to do almost all the work (iirc, I used 2 casts). It's disgusting good spell vs groups that aren't immune. Nobody in their right mind would say a spell that offers a -4 penalty for it's save is a bad option vs enemies that have any vulnerability to it.
Actually, the 'bit about Cone of Cold' makes complete sense, especially after I dissected the joke. I spelled it out for you. You're not this dumb, you're just trolling, and you're failing epicly at it.
I'm done with you on this topic I think. I don't believe you're arguing a position in good faith, and it's a stupid argument to have in the first place; Everyone can see 5th level spells are in very high demand in BG2, and are in much LESS demand in IWD. You are free to have your opinion if you wish.
Why do I even need to explain this? Anyone who plays RPGs instinctively knows status spells are usually far more dangerous when the enemy uses them than when the player does. Again, Sorcerers, which are better Mages, can only learn a limited amount of spells. So a spell that sees use in harder fights in the game is still a consideration Yeah because two Stinking Clouds is going to let so many enemies through. Oh wait it doesn't. You're the one who said 2 Webs can effectively shut down a group of enemies. Stinking Cloud is Web except different things are immune to it. Oh you mean in the game where the Sorcerer has another distinct advantage over a normal Mage? This isn't BG, spell scrolls aren't raining down from the sky. Even more so with this particular limitation where Mages lose their ability to Dual/Multiclass into Fighter. So Sorcerers are a definite factor, which means their limited spell slots are also a factor.
Also lol@good faith, you're the one ignoring Sorcerers, somehow equating a Feeblemind cast on a party member to a Feeblemind cast on one of the dozens of disposable enemies the game throws at you. Then there's this nonsense about Skeleton Warriors. So no. Either you're the one not arguing in good faith or you're ignorant about so many aspects of this game that you really shouldn't be arguing about it in the first place.