How often were you in social situations in Icewind Dale. You're out on the frontier, miles away from any civilisation. Baldurs gate didn't really have any consequence for good and evil except for the price of things in the store or if your reputation dropped too low you got hounded by the flaming fist.
True, but you also had relationships within your party that weren't instigated by your PC - Safana flirts with Coran, Edwin becomes fond of Alora, Kagain and Yeslick squabble constantly... whereas in IWD, you can have Paladins and Chaotic Evil psychopaths working side by side without any problems. It makes the game feel more "mechanical".
@Ward: I think you're seriously misreading the consensus on IWD, or at least the reasoning behind it: the issue isn't the story, it's that you don't have any reason to be invested in the story. A good plot is essential in any work of fiction, but it's not like your IWD party has any particular pathos or motivation to see the plot through.
Customization is also an issue: consider that when you create a full party, you are tailoring the characters to your specifications and - if you know the system - you can optimize them rather easily. There's something to be said for the simple fact that the BG games "force" you to incorporate NPCs who are flawed in one way or another: Xan's Moonblade is useful, but he can't cast Magic Missile. Minsc's strength is phenomenal but one hit from a Mindflayer can take him down. It is, IMO, a better experience for the player, because you have to incorporate these strengths and weaknesses into your game strategy.
I can't imagine IWD having the same limitations in an EE than the BG series, since they're allowed to add new stuff but not alter the plot, then a professional NPC project/ sidequests/ new locations (inc. a new town) would work really well... IWD is a great game, but lacks the replayability of BG, since theres very few variables within the game, as a long term fan, i'd rather have something different in my next IWD playthrough.... although leave the option for IWD classic edition at the start menu
My issue with IWD is that it's not that great a game and, so, I wouldn't want to risk future EE prospects if it does poorly. Maybe it won't do poorly and all would be well. *shrugs* I probably wouldn't bother to get it if it were released, but BeamDog/Overhaul are looking at more than just reedmilfam when making those sorts of decisions
@reedmilfam: I can understand that, but if I recall correctly, the next likely EE project after BG2 would be Planescape Torment (since Trent Oster has hinted that Beamdog already has the source code). If those three do well, I imagine a less-popular IWD:EE wouldn't sink the ship altogether...
@CheOffshore, by reading your comment i saw a spot of light.
Yes IWD don't work too much in the small picture of the story, so if whoever try to remake IWD make it to become alike Baldur's Gate, making new NPCs, completly new banters, turning the interactions between NPCs good enough to even change the outcome of some quests... if that's done i agree with you that a total remade IWD would be cool and worthwhile.
An EE team would have free reign to work in IWD, but the problem is: Would they do it?
It's exactly the fact that IWD lack NPCs and banters that make him attractive to some players, so i don't know if they would made those adds (the only way, for me, to raise replay in this game)
@reedmilfam: I can understand that, but if I recall correctly, the next likely EE project after BG2 would be Planescape Torment (since Trent Oster has hinted that Beamdog already has the source code). If those three do well, I imagine a less-popular IWD:EE wouldn't sink the ship altogether...
"Less popular" on these boards, perhaps, but let's face facts. Torment is a cult classic. I can virtually guarantee IWD reached and appealed to a far wider audience.
Expand the game massively and then it would be worth it. Also retcon the ridiculously stupid "Trials of the Luremaster" BS and replace it with more content actually taking place around the ten towns.
@shawne The party in Baldur's Gate have no motivation either, give or take a few 'I hate Irenicus' lines. The amount of plot related banter in that game is not significant.
If people don't have an interest in completing IWD because there aren't pregenerated lovetalk triggers or annoying random interval comments, then we do have a problem. But I don't need that stuff to enjoy IWD.
IWD:EE could easily add banter, and I suggest there be an on/off button for it. You just create another option on the character sheet, a pregenerated banter pack. When set to the NPC of your choice, they will voice certain lines at random times.
@Ward: On the contrary, every single NPC in both games has at least one stated reason for following you, whether it's gratitude, curiosity, a need for power or something else. This isn't exactly a new feature in RPGs.
And once again, you're misreading both the complaint and the intent behind it. If players have a lack of interest in completing IWD, it's for the same reason you wouldn't be able to finish a novel where the entire cast was silent and behaved exactly the same: regardless of how well the plot may be put together, there are no actual characters here - your party is comprised of six ciphers. This is why your suggested solution of random banter is insufficient; it's not about characters speaking, it's about characters speaking to each other in order to advance their own development. It should matter if a Paladin and a Chaotic Evil serial killer are serving the same cause; it should matter if a drow is sharing the same space as a surface elf, or if clerics from competing religions are in the same party.
As it stands, the IWD games are purely mechanical: you create six party members and put them through a sequence of events, and the composition of your team is only relevant in terms of gameplay (ie: whether or not you designed them to overcome the tasks set out by the game). The story has no personal impact on the characters, they just happen to be there and undergo the adventure because of reasons.
I would like to see it done, but I would not pay $20 for it. It would have to be $15 maximum..... in fact I would hesitate at $15. (referring to IWD 1)
This is not a rant, so please do not take it the wrong way. I truly am fascinated by the arguments against the IWD series, and I am curious to see more fleshed out thoughts.
The people that admit that it is not their cup of tea due to the lack of banter, romances, etc. I understand this argument completely.
There are two arguments that I do not completely understand.
I am curious about the players that try to shoe horn IWD into BG when the two series are not apples versus apples. IWD was not supposed to be BG at all and the developers made that clear from the beginning. It was a combat simulation with a much more linear story. Maybe this argument is an extension of the argument listed above?
The other argument is that you cannot connect with the characters and their motivations due to them not being professionally written by the designers. This is fascinating because even an old man like me (I am almost 40, so I assume I am an old man to most here:)) can imagine/role play my characters' intentions/personalities. Just look at the Tomb of Horrors thread and the improv role playing going on there.
This is a great discussion, and I hope it continues:)
@shawne In BG1 nobody talks to each other, yet everybody seemed to manage that until BG1NPC came out.
I don't need the characters to speak to me or each other. IWD is a dungeon crawler, with an epic story, it doesn't need clunkily written speeches to make it worth playing. You expect characters to make witty talk to each other in the middle of Dragon's Eye? I think not, sir!
If it isn't worth playing to half of you people just because NPCs don't halt your gameplay every ten minutes with literally five seconds of words, then you are sacrificing a lot of game for not much gain.
BG1NPC really does not enhance my experience much. I find it very annoying, actually, when it comes to Imoen, since she never leaves me alone.
@shawne In BG1 nobody talks to each other, yet everybody seemed to manage that until BG1NPC came out.
Not true. Even the unmodded game has escalating insults between the Harpers and the Zhents, Alora trying to cheer Edwin up, Shar-Teel complimenting Branwen, etc. The technology of the time may have limited the extent of these conversations, but they're still there.
Nope. Because epic stories, by definition, require epic characters. Otherwise it's a string of "This happens, and then this happens, and then this happens." That's just Storytelling 101.
Now, you don't see a need for that because you see IWD as a dungeon crawler on par with Diablo or Torchlight, pure gameplay and nothing else. More power to you. But you don't have a leg to stand on with your condescension, because your attitude on this thread runs along the lines of "I don't want banters, so you can't have them either!" If IWD:EE adds some much-needed characterization to the game, you'll still have the option of creating six drones to hit whatever you click on.
I believe an 'epic' story is one in which the stakes are high, the world is at risk and there are a massive cast of characters. I don't think these characters are required to be of epic levels (HLAs are optional, lol). Often in fantasy epics, we see armies whose ideals are represented by a single charcter who is no more extraordinary than your average man/woman/gamer/training seal.
IWD might not have had a complex story, but it an immersive and atmospheric game. Enthralling music, dark and seductive visuals, extraordinary areas...this warrants some credit too. It might not have been an epic...but the fact it succeeded with little story...and no NPCs...tells you something about the quality of the rest of the game.
I think it would be a mistake to try to make IWD more like BG by adding sidequests. The game is finely balanced so that each encounter is slightly harder than the previous one and if you start adding opportunities to gain extra experience it could take the challenge away.
I'm not a huge fan of IWD because it feels too programmed - everyone who plays it basically has to do the same things in the same order - but I think it would be a mistake to try to turn it into BG-lite.
I like IWD but don't think it would be worth $20 considering what you're getting for that price with BG:EE.
I think the problem with IWD:EE is that the BG2 engine has a lot of content and spells that would significantly overpower player characters. NPC's coule be given these abilities too, but I don't know how you have to script NPC's to take advantage of certain spells and such. Doing all that may be too much work for such a small product.
On the other hand, maybe Beamdog/Overhaul want a lot of games like this in their portfolio, plus have a game up for sale as a consistant revenue stream. Who knows ...
The old IWD in my view is flawed, as if the devs never finshed the game.
If you want to focus in game play, you make a diablo alike game, if i'm not gonna develop the NPCs, why the game bother in make them? Make a 1 player game style and do the basic hack and slash. Focus in the develop of character buildings or intense difficult battles. Try to defend the actual lack of roleplay is by definition an fanboy(girl) act.
D&D system isn't made for dead behavior, it's an RPG (ROLE play game). When someone says that we should use imagination, with all due respect i nearly explode in laughts... an RPG is nothing more or less than an interactive history, so... where's the history i brought cos i only see a mechanical set of options that togheter make a main quest and only that?! @shawne defined well IWD into an previous post.
If some ppl like IWD for his flaws, good for them, but i didn't like and with me there's a bunch of people that didn't like the game. If Beamdog try to enhance Icewind Dale at the state the game is at the moment, surelly i'm not going to support this project, and as me i believe other people think in the same way.
In this moment of enhancement, i see IWD as a shell, a raw material that can be molded into an awersome game, the exactly lack of content in IWD can give the enhanced version more freedom to make changes in the game. If they fix IWD mistake of content lack i will most probally support the EE version, otherwise Beamdog should make an market research before to see the receptivity of the EE idea.
I believe an 'epic' story is one in which the stakes are high, the world is at risk and there are a massive cast of characters. I don't think these characters are required to be of epic levels (HLAs are optional, lol).
By "epic characters" I was referring to your typical heroic or anti-heroic archetype - for all that they may start out as "everymen", they tend to develop into something more by the end of their adventures.
Wow, let's tone down the animosity. A healthy debate is all I am looking for:) Remember, we are still talking about a game, my friends.
I personally do not see a lack of roleplaying in IWD. I'm an accountant. I do not know any other middle aged accountants that strap on chainmail and fight undead on the weekends!
Yes, it has flaws, but do not resort to insulting my intelligence because I enjoyed the game for what it was.
I think IWD is cursed because everyone looks at it with BG glasses on, and with good reason. I personally consider the BG series the best games of all time. IWD was a polished combat simulation using the infinity engine, and it was marketed as such. I think it was a good dungeon crawl, nothing more.
I do admit I am a fan[old man] I would have to roleplay to be a boy anymore:)
@j3cwill, let me make some amends for my last comments, i used strong words with the objective of give impact for the expressed opinion, but reading again the laught part i can feel the animosity of the words there. While i keep the idea i really exceeded in my right of expression there.
I really liked IWD (not so much IWD2) and I would play the hell out of an IWD:EE.
That being said, I think the main drawback of IWD was the linear type of play. The fact that I could not wander about as I pleased sort of annoyed me at times.
But you don't have a leg to stand on with your condescension, because your attitude on this thread runs along the lines of "I don't want banters, so you can't have them either!".
Actually it's more, I don't need it because I can imagine it all myself, so why can't you?
D&D system isn't made for dead behavior, it's an RPG (ROLE play game). When someone says that we should use imagination, with all due respect i nearly explode in laughts...
HAHAHAHAHA... Oh wait... You're serious.
Every RPG I've ever played, (CRPG, Forum based, PBeM, P&P) has needed imagination on the part of the player or else you're just a puppeteer controling the puppet for the story. I feel less connection with the Bhaalspawn than I do wth the six characters I create in Icewind Dale because they are MINE where as the Bhaalspawn was created by someone else.
I would like an IWD EE, but not if it delays a Planescape EE or BG2 EE, or probably even a BG3. I would rather see all of those first. Now if another qualified team came along to handle IWD EE, I would be elated.
@Jolanthus P&P style of play =/= of plataform game game style. I wish to sell you a blank history book for $20,00, if you complain about the blank pages, well... use your imagination !
I won't mind seeing IWD get the EE treatment. make some small adjustments and bring in a few items (kits, etc) from BGII and I would think it might change some minds. I will agree, it's not a strong a story and given the entire party is player made it makes it pretty tame given no inter-party banter. all the same...I would vote "yea" on an EE version.
on a side note, just loaded it up to pass the time until BGEE comes out. ~
Comments
@Ward: I think you're seriously misreading the consensus on IWD, or at least the reasoning behind it: the issue isn't the story, it's that you don't have any reason to be invested in the story. A good plot is essential in any work of fiction, but it's not like your IWD party has any particular pathos or motivation to see the plot through.
Customization is also an issue: consider that when you create a full party, you are tailoring the characters to your specifications and - if you know the system - you can optimize them rather easily. There's something to be said for the simple fact that the BG games "force" you to incorporate NPCs who are flawed in one way or another: Xan's Moonblade is useful, but he can't cast Magic Missile. Minsc's strength is phenomenal but one hit from a Mindflayer can take him down. It is, IMO, a better experience for the player, because you have to incorporate these strengths and weaknesses into your game strategy.
Yes IWD don't work too much in the small picture of the story, so if whoever try to remake IWD make it to become alike Baldur's Gate, making new NPCs, completly new banters, turning the interactions between NPCs good enough to even change the outcome of some quests... if that's done i agree with you that a total remade IWD would be cool and worthwhile.
An EE team would have free reign to work in IWD, but the problem is: Would they do it?
It's exactly the fact that IWD lack NPCs and banters that make him attractive to some players, so i don't know if they would made those adds (the only way, for me, to raise replay in this game)
If people don't have an interest in completing IWD because there aren't pregenerated lovetalk triggers or annoying random interval comments, then we do have a problem. But I don't need that stuff to enjoy IWD.
IWD:EE could easily add banter, and I suggest there be an on/off button for it. You just create another option on the character sheet, a pregenerated banter pack. When set to the NPC of your choice, they will voice certain lines at random times.
And once again, you're misreading both the complaint and the intent behind it. If players have a lack of interest in completing IWD, it's for the same reason you wouldn't be able to finish a novel where the entire cast was silent and behaved exactly the same: regardless of how well the plot may be put together, there are no actual characters here - your party is comprised of six ciphers. This is why your suggested solution of random banter is insufficient; it's not about characters speaking, it's about characters speaking to each other in order to advance their own development. It should matter if a Paladin and a Chaotic Evil serial killer are serving the same cause; it should matter if a drow is sharing the same space as a surface elf, or if clerics from competing religions are in the same party.
As it stands, the IWD games are purely mechanical: you create six party members and put them through a sequence of events, and the composition of your team is only relevant in terms of gameplay (ie: whether or not you designed them to overcome the tasks set out by the game). The story has no personal impact on the characters, they just happen to be there and undergo the adventure because of reasons.
The people that admit that it is not their cup of tea due to the lack of banter, romances, etc. I understand this argument completely.
There are two arguments that I do not completely understand.
I am curious about the players that try to shoe horn IWD into BG when the two series are not apples versus apples. IWD was not supposed to be BG at all and the developers made that clear from the beginning. It was a combat simulation with a much more linear story. Maybe this argument is an extension of the argument listed above?
The other argument is that you cannot connect with the characters and their motivations due to them not being professionally written by the designers. This is fascinating because even an old man like me (I am almost 40, so I assume I am an old man to most here:)) can imagine/role play my characters' intentions/personalities. Just look at the Tomb of Horrors thread and the improv role playing going on there.
This is a great discussion, and I hope it continues:)
I don't need the characters to speak to me or each other. IWD is a dungeon crawler, with an epic story, it doesn't need clunkily written speeches to make it worth playing. You expect characters to make witty talk to each other in the middle of Dragon's Eye? I think not, sir!
If it isn't worth playing to half of you people just because NPCs don't halt your gameplay every ten minutes with literally five seconds of words, then you are sacrificing a lot of game for not much gain.
BG1NPC really does not enhance my experience much. I find it very annoying, actually, when it comes to Imoen, since she never leaves me alone.
Now, you don't see a need for that because you see IWD as a dungeon crawler on par with Diablo or Torchlight, pure gameplay and nothing else. More power to you. But you don't have a leg to stand on with your condescension, because your attitude on this thread runs along the lines of "I don't want banters, so you can't have them either!" If IWD:EE adds some much-needed characterization to the game, you'll still have the option of creating six drones to hit whatever you click on.
IWD might not have had a complex story, but it an immersive and atmospheric game. Enthralling music, dark and seductive visuals, extraordinary areas...this warrants some credit too. It might not have been an epic...but the fact it succeeded with little story...and no NPCs...tells you something about the quality of the rest of the game.
I'm not a huge fan of IWD because it feels too programmed - everyone who plays it basically has to do the same things in the same order - but I think it would be a mistake to try to turn it into BG-lite.
I think the problem with IWD:EE is that the BG2 engine has a lot of content and spells that would significantly overpower player characters. NPC's coule be given these abilities too, but I don't know how you have to script NPC's to take advantage of certain spells and such. Doing all that may be too much work for such a small product.
On the other hand, maybe Beamdog/Overhaul want a lot of games like this in their portfolio, plus have a game up for sale as a consistant revenue stream. Who knows ...
If you want to focus in game play, you make a diablo alike game, if i'm not gonna develop the NPCs, why the game bother in make them? Make a 1 player game style and do the basic hack and slash. Focus in the develop of character buildings or intense difficult battles. Try to defend the actual lack of roleplay is by definition an fanboy(girl) act.
D&D system isn't made for dead behavior, it's an RPG (ROLE play game). When someone says that we should use imagination, with all due respect i nearly explode in laughts... an RPG is nothing more or less than an interactive history, so... where's the history i brought cos i only see a mechanical set of options that togheter make a main quest and only that?! @shawne defined well IWD into an previous post.
If some ppl like IWD for his flaws, good for them, but i didn't like and with me there's a bunch of people that didn't like the game. If Beamdog try to enhance Icewind Dale at the state the game is at the moment, surelly i'm not going to support this project, and as me i believe other people think in the same way.
In this moment of enhancement, i see IWD as a shell, a raw material that can be molded into an awersome game, the exactly lack of content in IWD can give the enhanced version more freedom to make changes in the game. If they fix IWD mistake of content lack i will most probally support the EE version, otherwise Beamdog should make an market research before to see the receptivity of the EE idea.
I personally do not see a lack of roleplaying in IWD. I'm an accountant. I do not know any other middle aged accountants that strap on chainmail and fight undead on the weekends!
Yes, it has flaws, but do not resort to insulting my intelligence because I enjoyed the game for what it was.
I think IWD is cursed because everyone looks at it with BG glasses on, and with good reason. I personally consider the BG series the best games of all time. IWD was a polished combat simulation using the infinity engine, and it was marketed as such. I think it was a good dungeon crawl, nothing more.
I do admit I am a fan[old man] I would have to roleplay to be a boy anymore:)
That being said, I think the main drawback of IWD was the linear type of play. The fact that I could not wander about as I pleased sort of annoyed me at times.
Every RPG I've ever played, (CRPG, Forum based, PBeM, P&P) has needed imagination on the part of the player or else you're just a puppeteer controling the puppet for the story. I feel less connection with the Bhaalspawn than I do wth the six characters I create in Icewind Dale because they are MINE where as the Bhaalspawn was created by someone else.
Now if another qualified team came along to handle IWD EE, I would be elated.
on a side note, just loaded it up to pass the time until BGEE comes out.