Which is why I refer to my own fix: Make the werewolf unavailable until level 7 and the greater werewolf level 14. Give the shapeshifter the ability to shift into wolf at 1st. Make the shapeshift last a number of rounds equal to the druid's level and only grant one shapeshift per form per 5 levels (starting at 1 and gaining a new instance at 5, 10, 15, and so on). The actual stats should be what BG Tweaks brought in. I would say that shapeshifting would become more useful if they also allowed the ability to cast spells while shifted.
Not a bad suggestion. I was thinking something similar re delaying availability of the werewolf form until later but using the true stats. Not sure about reducing the number of changes though as from a players perspective you're already forced to choose tactically when to change or not RE the inability to cast spells while shifted (which I agree with).
Merged the three threads devoted to Shapeshifters to keep the discussion in one place. @Kithrixx@Kiros@belgarathmth
@Dragonfolk2000 Nice idea about making a transition from wolf to werewolf to greater, though the kit says they've been infected with lycanthropy early on. Still, maybe a good starting place.
Well, an animal companion would be a nice addition for all druids (and rangers), just use the same codes for familiar to do it. NWN2 idea of make animal companions uncontrolable but stronger would be nice, too.
The ability of cast any spell while shapeshifted would be a nice new HLA skill.
Some druid spells that only in shifted form could be cast, could be nice too (more buffs if possible), and would benefit both shapeshifter and avengers. Besides this would justify the forget animal shifts (wolfs and bears).
And at last, totemic druids shoud get better spirits when advancing in level and weaker spirits while in low level (or totemic druid will become a lame class in BG).
Even with the vanilla nerfs present, werewolf druids and totemic spirit animals will overpower almost anything in BG1. Their power level was never meant to be present when BG1 was developed. It may be too late, but the BG:EE team really needs to do something about these two kits. Otherwise, players will just have to avoid the two kits unless they want to run roughshod over the whole game and wind up with a boring experience.
I guess a werewolf form that can be hurt by normal weapons is *maybe* an okay balance, but all that APR and superhuman strength, plus the ability to go back human and start casting some of the best spells in the game, makes this issue very debatable.
This same discussion could be had about some of the other kits, but I think it's most relevant for the druid kits.
If they can't get this addressed and fixed at release, I hope they will do an update after release.
BTW - the ability to choose which spirit animal is summoned by the totemist would make an awful lot of sense, and should be easily implementable in the innate abilities menu. (I think.) It doesn't make any sense to me that the totemist gets a random spirit animal upon casting, and I don't think it would upset balance to have control. Each animal has different applications according to the situation, and the player should be able to choose what he/she is summoning.
Well, as was mentioned by @PhillipDaigle, Shapeshifters have already been nerfed. I'd just like to see something more adaptive and graduated by level increase rather than just a nerfcanthrope. That would take work though... and less than a month to go, not happening. It'll have to be something post-release, but I still don't even have an outline of how the transitional forms would appear, particularly given BG's engine limitations.
The Totemic Druid Spirit Animals are a different story. No official news yet, but perhaps- just maybe- something on the table already afoot... >:-) We'll have to see if and how it gets in by release...
This is the shapeshifter kit that I made for BGT :
The werewolf becomes more powerful every 2 levels (it's progressive). In form of werewolf : 20% of resistance against magic, nightvision, immunity vs charm. A short regeneration time when he's back into human form.
If I buy BGEE (waits hopelessly for GUI screens), I can share the kit when the time will have come.
@Sindyan Well, first of all at lower levels the Spirit Animals are no longer the roaring jaguar, howling wolf, massive bear, and slithering snake. That would be too much, you see. So instead we tweaked that a bit and now up until 15th level you'll get a fierce house cat, snarling wild dog, a squirrel, and a chicken. You'd be surprised. Sometimes they last more than a round.
Just hope that nerf werewolfs for BG don't turn them a shit class in BG2, a proper progressive formula of power should be applied. In my view, a chance of (or every 100%) become berserkered, enraged when a low level lycantrophe druid become a werewolf should add balance by itself and would prevent the player of abuse the shapeshifter skill.
The totemic druid should not only be nerfed for BG but improved for BG2, i really feel a totemic druid useless in the end of BG2, specially in ToB.
@Sindyan Well, first of all at lower levels the Spirit Animals are no longer the roaring jaguar, howling wolf, massive bear, and slithering snake. That would be too much, you see. So instead we tweaked that a bit and now up until 15th level you'll get a fierce house cat, snarling wild dog, a squirrel, and a chicken. You'd be surprised. Sometimes they last more than a round.
Sweet'! Does the house cat have a disease proc since 90% Of cat bites become infected? I can't wait to summon a squirrell to attack my enemies of nature!!!
I think that the house cat should have a "Blind spell on attack", since all real-life cats follow the dictate of "Go for the eyes, Kitty-Boo, go for the eyes!"
A spiritual archetype of catness would either float or climb up the bodies of its foes, attacking those eyes. And it should also have some kind of "startle" ability, maybe a "Spook spell on attack", since cats are staples of horror movie startles.
The beautiful, god-like house cat is one of the most underrated creatures in existence (Or at least non-catpeople underrate them. And irrationally and heretically don't like them.)
Sometimes, when I play a cleric, I choose Sharess for my goddess, only because she loves cats, and despite the fact that I disagree with her "sensual pleasure over all" philosophy. Or, actually, maybe I don't disagree with that so much, since I love alcoholic spirits and good food, although I could take or leave sex. A bit like a female cat, really.
"Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this."
"There are two refuges from the miseries of life - music, and cats" - Albert Schweitzer, physician, philosopher, and organist.
Just hope that nerf werewolfs for BG don't turn them a shit class in BG2, a proper progressive formula of power should be applied. In my view, a chance of (or every 100%) become berserkered, enraged when a low level lycantrophe druid become a werewolf should add balance by itself and would prevent the player of abuse the shapeshifter skill.
I think the Nerf hes referring to is how there nerfed by default in BG2, ie not giving the stats and abilities in the description. Trent has mentioned that they wont be fixed for the release of BG:EE. Granted they shouldn't be overpowered because of this.
The totemic druid should not only be nerfed for BG but improved for BG2, i really feel a totemic druid useless in the end of BG2, specially in ToB.
Avengers were the best end-game druids. Shapeshifters were trash. Totemic Druids were still better than regular druids.
Just because the class features that make you powerful getting to epic levels taper off doesn't mean those abilities are somehow "useless." The second character I ever beat the entire saga with was a Totemic Druid and he obliterated everything.
@sandmanCCL, as single class druid would, same for an Shapeshifters if you just forget the shifter and concentrate on the druid spells, however druids really should have an overhaul for late game spells and abilities.
Have you ever rolled with a single-class druid through Throne of Bhaal? Druid HLA's are second to thieves/bards, if you ask me. Their uber 7th level spells are pretty amazing and earth elemental form is so good. Once you hit 15, you're easily as capable as any equivalent-leveled Cleric in terms of spells.
That totemic druid is going to have an easier time reaching those HLA's. Once you hit epic levels, they stop having a drawback because they can still use HLA shapeshifting forms.
So, I don't buy their spirit animals somehow losing effectiveness. I recall spamming them like crazy during a bunch of battles in ToB and them helping tons. Just because they lose the ability to be invincible doesn't somehow make them useless abilities.
If anything, druids need a buff during that crazy level 14 to level 15 stage. That's when they are weakest. End-game isn't the problem.
I finshed a SoA+ToB game with at least each of the kits, except for wizard slayer, jester, and some wizards specialist schools. I don't use normally the single kits, but druid, bard and thief i used. If you count the multi/dual class games that i made, the only single kit i didn't use was pure ranger. Well i played this game for almost 11 years (BG2 was never unninstaled for long in my PC).
What i meant in my previous comment, was that in the end of Soa and ToB, the specialist druid besides the avenger,doesn't have any recognized advantage, they're the same as a single druid, however i never said single druid classes are bad.
The Shapeshifter kit werewolf form was nerfed because normal werewolves were too strong at earlier levels, and they didn't really get a chance to fix it for later levels. While I would like to fix the kit, it will most likely have to be a post-release update due to the number of other features we're focusing on.
Believe me, it bugs me too.
Since this statement was made weeks ago and the release date has just been pushed back significantly, any chance we can get a Shapeshifter fix by the November release date?
Edit: I personally think the standard transformation should get nerfed and the greater transformation should receive a buff to make it more endgame viable.
I was actually going to write up an entirely new kit progression for the Shapeshifter and see how the devs liked it, but the looming deadline convinced me not to. Now that the deadline has been pushed back significantly, I'll see what I can do.
Shapeshifter (Rework!) This druid is not called shapeshifter because he has access to a great variety of forms, rather because of his complete dedication to a single alternate form. This druid has willingly allowed himself to become infected with lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training he has the ability to control his affliction. The creature he becomes is that of the werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.
Advantages: May shapeshift into the form of a werewolf once per day for every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). This form becomes progressively more powerful as the Shapeshifter becomes more disciplined in controlling it, gaining unique bonuses.
Disadvantages: No other shapeshifting abilities due to the effort required maintaining balance in his primary forms. Cannot wear any armor.
Werewolf Form Bonuses: These bonuses only apply while the Shapeshifter is in his/her Werewolf form.
Gain 2% magic resistance per level. Every 3 levels, gain a +1 bonus to Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity. Every 5 levels, gain an additional half attack per round. Every 6 levels, increase paw damage by one dice category (referenced below). Every 7 levels paws gain a +1 enchantment when determining what they can successfully damage (+2 at 14, +3 at 21, +4 at 27). Every 8 levels, gain +1 health regeneration. At level 10, gain 30% Elemental resistance and increase it by 3% every 2 levels thereafter. At Level 15, gain immunity to normal weapons.
Notes: Fairly basic stuff. Instead of making it “you get x form at y level”, I made it progress via bonuses. I think that’s the most appropriate way to do it, because the idea behind the Shapeshifter is that the more experienced they get with the lycanthropy, the more aware of the limits they become and the more comfortable they are with easing up on holding back while still maintaining control. Did some rudimentary tests and it shouldn’t be too powerful during the events of Baldur’s Gate while still having the ability to progress to the point of being powerful enough to contend comfortably in Baldur’s Gate II.
High Level Abilities: Considering the Shapeshifter’s specialization, I don’t think he should get access to the Earth Elemental or Fire Elemental shapeshifting. I also think the Totemic Druid should skip out on those as well, but I’m sure the internal balance team is already doing that sort of thing considering they’ve already rebalanced him. I’d also really like to see a “cast while shapeshifted” HLA, mainly because Druids are kind of hurting without it. Hell, I’d love to see it as a standard feature (because Druids kinda suck compared to every other class), but that may be asking too much.
Anyways, the alternative for our Shapeshifter friend:
Black Dog Transformation Harnessing the very spirit of lycanthropy itself, this powerful shapechange ability allows the druid to become a black werewolf of immense power for 4 rounds.
Black Dog stats: 24 HD 4 attacks per round, counted as +5 weapons that deal 2d10 slashing damage Base AC of 0 Str, Dex, Con set to 25 Regenerates 6 HP per round Immunity to magic Immunity to elemental damage
Notes: A very nasty damage-dealing machine, balanced by the fact that it lacks the end-of-transformation heal that the other HLA transformations have. Instead, it has regeneration during the transformation. I figured that it would use the same model/effect that I recall seeing many times in the campaign; a black tinted or masked Werewolf model with glowing red eyes.
I really like the idea of forms getting progressively better. Most of what you've presented looks good to me, with one exception.
"Every 7 levels paws gain a +1 enchantment when determining what they can successfully damage (+2 at 14, +3 at 21, +4 at 27)."
This needs to be a bit faster, in my opinion. I'd boost it every 4 levels, because that'd keep it on par with the gear most characters receive. Keep in mind that druids level fairly quickly to 14 and then level at a snail's pace to 15.
I initially considered the monk's progression vs xp for this, but it just doesn't work well.
Comments
@Kithrixx @Kiros @belgarathmth
@Dragonfolk2000
Nice idea about making a transition from wolf to werewolf to greater, though the kit says they've been infected with lycanthropy early on. Still, maybe a good starting place.
The ability of cast any spell while shapeshifted would be a nice new HLA skill.
Some druid spells that only in shifted form could be cast, could be nice too (more buffs if possible), and would benefit both shapeshifter and avengers. Besides this would justify the forget animal shifts (wolfs and bears).
And at last, totemic druids shoud get better spirits when advancing in level and weaker spirits while in low level (or totemic druid will become a lame class in BG).
I guess a werewolf form that can be hurt by normal weapons is *maybe* an okay balance, but all that APR and superhuman strength, plus the ability to go back human and start casting some of the best spells in the game, makes this issue very debatable.
This same discussion could be had about some of the other kits, but I think it's most relevant for the druid kits.
If they can't get this addressed and fixed at release, I hope they will do an update after release.
BTW - the ability to choose which spirit animal is summoned by the totemist would make an awful lot of sense, and should be easily implementable in the innate abilities menu. (I think.) It doesn't make any sense to me that the totemist gets a random spirit animal upon casting, and I don't think it would upset balance to have control. Each animal has different applications according to the situation, and the player should be able to choose what he/she is summoning.
The Totemic Druid Spirit Animals are a different story. No official news yet, but perhaps- just maybe- something on the table already afoot... >:-) We'll have to see if and how it gets in by release...
The werewolf becomes more powerful every 2 levels (it's progressive).
In form of werewolf : 20% of resistance against magic, nightvision, immunity vs charm.
A short regeneration time when he's back into human form.
If I buy BGEE (waits hopelessly for GUI screens), I can share the kit when the time will have come.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/214/familiar-and-totemic-druids-pets-tweaks-for-bgee
Damn, this was mentioned in the first week of the forum! hehehe
@Sindyan
That's for me to know and you to find out. :-P Suffice it to say, Nature's Balance has been applied.
Well, first of all at lower levels the Spirit Animals are no longer the roaring jaguar, howling wolf, massive bear, and slithering snake. That would be too much, you see. So instead we tweaked that a bit and now up until 15th level you'll get a fierce house cat, snarling wild dog, a squirrel, and a chicken. You'd be surprised. Sometimes they last more than a round.
The totemic druid should not only be nerfed for BG but improved for BG2, i really feel a totemic druid useless in the end of BG2, specially in ToB.
A spiritual archetype of catness would either float or climb up the bodies of its foes, attacking those eyes. And it should also have some kind of "startle" ability, maybe a "Spook spell on attack", since cats are staples of horror movie startles.
The beautiful, god-like house cat is one of the most underrated creatures in existence (Or at least non-catpeople underrate them. And irrationally and heretically don't like them.)
Sometimes, when I play a cleric, I choose Sharess for my goddess, only because she loves cats, and despite the fact that I disagree with her "sensual pleasure over all" philosophy. Or, actually, maybe I don't disagree with that so much, since I love alcoholic spirits and good food, although I could take or leave sex. A bit like a female cat, really.
"Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this."
"There are two refuges from the miseries of life - music, and cats" - Albert Schweitzer, physician, philosopher, and organist.
ehhh...I don't get the cat worship. I have the dog easy gone, love my famil but bite outsides type of personality.
Just because the class features that make you powerful getting to epic levels taper off doesn't mean those abilities are somehow "useless." The second character I ever beat the entire saga with was a Totemic Druid and he obliterated everything.
That totemic druid is going to have an easier time reaching those HLA's. Once you hit epic levels, they stop having a drawback because they can still use HLA shapeshifting forms.
So, I don't buy their spirit animals somehow losing effectiveness. I recall spamming them like crazy during a bunch of battles in ToB and them helping tons. Just because they lose the ability to be invincible doesn't somehow make them useless abilities.
If anything, druids need a buff during that crazy level 14 to level 15 stage. That's when they are weakest. End-game isn't the problem.
What i meant in my previous comment, was that in the end of Soa and ToB, the specialist druid besides the avenger,doesn't have any recognized advantage, they're the same as a single druid, however i never said single druid classes are bad.
Edit: I personally think the standard transformation should get nerfed and the greater transformation should receive a buff to make it more endgame viable.
Shapeshifter (Rework!)
This druid is not called shapeshifter because he has access to a great variety of forms, rather because of his complete dedication to a single alternate form. This druid has willingly allowed himself to become infected with lycanthropy, but due to intense study and training he has the ability to control his affliction. The creature he becomes is that of the werewolf, the most famous of the lycanthrope shape changers.
Advantages:
May shapeshift into the form of a werewolf once per day for every 4 levels (starts at 1st level with one use). This form becomes progressively more powerful as the Shapeshifter becomes more disciplined in controlling it, gaining unique bonuses.
Disadvantages:
No other shapeshifting abilities due to the effort required maintaining balance in his primary forms.
Cannot wear any armor.
Werewolf Form Bonuses:
These bonuses only apply while the Shapeshifter is in his/her Werewolf form.
Gain 2% magic resistance per level.
Every 3 levels, gain a +1 bonus to Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity.
Every 5 levels, gain an additional half attack per round.
Every 6 levels, increase paw damage by one dice category (referenced below).
Every 7 levels paws gain a +1 enchantment when determining what they can successfully damage (+2 at 14, +3 at 21, +4 at 27).
Every 8 levels, gain +1 health regeneration.
At level 10, gain 30% Elemental resistance and increase it by 3% every 2 levels thereafter.
At Level 15, gain immunity to normal weapons.
Paw damage:
Level 1: 1d6
Level 6: 1d8
Level 12: 1d10
Level 18: 1d12
Level 24: 2d6
Level 30: 2d8
Notes:
Fairly basic stuff. Instead of making it “you get x form at y level”, I made it progress via bonuses. I think that’s the most appropriate way to do it, because the idea behind the Shapeshifter is that the more experienced they get with the lycanthropy, the more aware of the limits they become and the more comfortable they are with easing up on holding back while still maintaining control. Did some rudimentary tests and it shouldn’t be too powerful during the events of Baldur’s Gate while still having the ability to progress to the point of being powerful enough to contend comfortably in Baldur’s Gate II.
High Level Abilities:
Considering the Shapeshifter’s specialization, I don’t think he should get access to the Earth Elemental or Fire Elemental shapeshifting. I also think the Totemic Druid should skip out on those as well, but I’m sure the internal balance team is already doing that sort of thing considering they’ve already rebalanced him. I’d also really like to see a “cast while shapeshifted” HLA, mainly because Druids are kind of hurting without it. Hell, I’d love to see it as a standard feature (because Druids kinda suck compared to every other class), but that may be asking too much.
Anyways, the alternative for our Shapeshifter friend:
Black Dog Transformation
Harnessing the very spirit of lycanthropy itself, this powerful shapechange ability allows the druid to become a black werewolf of immense power for 4 rounds.
Black Dog stats:
24 HD
4 attacks per round, counted as +5 weapons that deal 2d10 slashing damage
Base AC of 0
Str, Dex, Con set to 25
Regenerates 6 HP per round
Immunity to magic
Immunity to elemental damage
Notes: A very nasty damage-dealing machine, balanced by the fact that it lacks the end-of-transformation heal that the other HLA transformations have. Instead, it has regeneration during the transformation. I figured that it would use the same model/effect that I recall seeing many times in the campaign; a black tinted or masked Werewolf model with glowing red eyes.
I really like the idea of forms getting progressively better. Most of what you've presented looks good to me, with one exception.
"Every 7 levels paws gain a +1 enchantment when determining what they can successfully damage (+2 at 14, +3 at 21, +4 at 27)."
This needs to be a bit faster, in my opinion. I'd boost it every 4 levels, because that'd keep it on par with the gear most characters receive. Keep in mind that druids level fairly quickly to 14 and then level at a snail's pace to 15.
I initially considered the monk's progression vs xp for this, but it just doesn't work well.
+1 fists | 225000 | Monk level 9, Druid level 11
+2 fists | 900000 | Monk level 12, Druid level 13
+3 fists | 1575000 | Monk level 15, Druid level 14
+4 fists | 3825000 | Monk level 25, Druid level 21
That looks really ugly, so I'd just reiterate +1 every 4 levels. The druid would snag a +3 fairly early on, but have a slow burn to get to +4 and +5.